angelumiere

Hello,

First I would like to thank all those people contributing to this forum. They helped me a lot on how to maximise my dps by sharing their knowledge in the different mage threads.

I'm in a guild who is at 2/6 down Serpentshrine and 1/4 down The Eye.

What I wood like to know is what happens to the raid dps if all mages respec deep fire?
We generally raid with 2 to 3 mages and will be taking 5 to 7 debuff slots on the boss.
We also have 3 to 4 warlocks and 1 to 2 shadow priests in the raid.

I've read this debuff slots thread but can't find an answer.

If we spec frost and manage to keep the elemental up, the dps-loss won't be that much
and we won't have to respec for Al'ar when we will be working on him. And we will only be using 1 debuff slot on the boss.

Any advise or comments?

P.S. : sorry if I made mistakes, english is only my third language.

 

Dryssa

If you bring 3 mages, they'll use a total of 7 debuff slots (3 fireball DOTs, 3 potential ignites, 1 improved scorch). They'll do the highest personal DPS of any mage spec, as well as boosting Warlocks' fire damage. As for Al'ar, since you're still progressing on him you'll probably want to have your mages spec frost specifically for that fight. 100g per week isn't much to ask for progression.

 

kadgar

A quick question about spell haste, a mvp in the german wow forum claims (http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....11822748&sid=3), that spell haste for fireball is calculated always for the unskilled casttime.
So final fireball casttime would be ((3,5 - x% spell haste) - 0,5 sec) instead of (3,0 -x% spell haste).
Sounds strange to me, anybody can confirm how it works?

 

Pintofbrew

Lapochka: May I advise a spell checker, a re-read and less ^^ . Using the apostrophe the full stop and not starting sentences with But will also help. Calling Blizzard "Fuckheads" will definitely not.

As for the TC, (we are in the TC forum after all) if you see "loads of wasted talents in deep fire" compared to 10.48.3 perhaps I'm terribly wrong, but for the last seven or so months now deep fire has been significantly superior to 40.18.3 unless you're wearing terrible pre-heroic drops. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, in gear 33.28.0 will be superior to 40.18.3 unless the majority of your rotations are in their majority 2/5T5 AB based.

With no empowered AM you are limited to AB*X,FBall*2 or Sc*4 in place of FBall, switching to a much heavier AB basis if mana allows. It is extremely difficult to make this spec surpass full fire in almost all encounters, barring heavily fire-resistant bosses.

There is not even a discussion point on whether 40.18.3 fireball/scorch rotations are close to 10.48.3.

I'd like Lhivera's and Vontre's but I believe if you're capable of reading and signing up to EJ you're also capable of:

1) Reading the Forum Guidelines.

2) Reading some Other Posts before you post.

and as a consequence:

3) Posting a post in accordance with the Forum Guidelines.

4) Not posting what has been said/discussed before and therefore pointless and/or mistaken.

 

Hate Monkey

Since 100% haste cuts the cast time in half of a spell, the proper formula to use is:
( (cast time after talents) / ( 1 + total haste ) )

Using just the Bracers of Nimble Thought, 28 spell haste, 1.78% haste.
The spell book shows 2.95s cast.

If it were based off the untalented cast time of 3.5s then;
3.5/1.0178=3.439s - .5=2.939s or 2.94s cast

Whereas with post talented at 3s cast;
3/1.0178=2.947 or 2.95s cast.

Seems like your MVP over there needs to have his MVP status removed.

 

Searix

After a full night of BT, i must say i am quite impressed with mage dps with this new patch.

10/48/3, great gear, typical raid buffs, shadow priest but no shaman, with destruction pots, 4th on najentus just behind 3 rogues with enhance sham, picking up 2 spines and ~12 seconds of bandage

Ignoring supremus, Akama bugged out and i was way out of position trying to sheep killing my dps. Sat for Gurtogg.

2nd on souls, 1st phase 3 dps. This includes dieing phase 2 at 2% when our tank got stunned and i was next highest on aggro. No elements on any of the phases. Was using pots so dieing i had no buffs up p3.

5th Teron, living entire time, but a deal of pushback.

Overall if i were to get elements and shaman every boss, i would've been right on par with rogues, maybe above.

 

Lapochka

Pint, thank you for your constructive post about my spelling

Don’t take me wrong...but taking "advice" from a firemage with 10.33% hit , talking about my preheroics drops and raid dmg doesnt quite make any point.

If i was uncertain of what I was saying, I would not say it here. - Seriosly, the day that i start to get pwned by deep fire build mage i will change with out hasitation.
I have been following the guide to mage DPS from wow forums and have been using 10/48/3.. but that was for heroics and for Kara and some SSC... - from my raiding experience I can clearly state that using 40/18/3 build with a scorch, fireball and fireblast rotation = win.
I might agree thought that the scorch build will be worth tying out after 2.3

 

Hate Monkey

Besides your whole post bragging about how you did, and the grammar, there are a few problems with this statement.

1) Mages need CoE to compete on most bosses that CoR is on.
2) You didn't read a lot of this thread.

Saying where you finished on a meter is pointless without numbers. Possible to provide a WWS with the numbers?

Your gear selection boggles me. Why would you stay Fire if you dropped your crit that low going for haste, seems counter productive, unless thats an alternate gear set. And are you saying that you had NO buffs during p3 RoS, or just no consumable buffs? Huge difference there.

Really dude, I mean c'mon. That's like saying... well I don't know, but that's just plain stupid. We've know that Hemo is a great dps increase for the melee for a long time now, the only difference now is that it gets the same buffs SS does now, so the rogue who specs it isn't useless anymore.

 

Prod

I came into 2.3 with a LOT of skepticism about fire. But that has changed. I did 1800 dps on Gorefiend tonight (only 41% crit rate, I'm at 35+ and also 2 combustions, 1 flamecap, 0 destro pots) and I believe I used the crusade trinket over the BT one, which I don't think I should have. I did not have the new meta gem.

The most significant change isn't the fire coefficient but the new casting system. No pushback problem, easy scorch rotations to keep buff up, no lag. It was all very smooth.

The point I want to make is this. Even with arcane spec, I'd be fighting lag with AM. Lag is gone with fire. It's pretty amazing. I'd respec regardless of the arcane nerfs.

For those wondering, the frost mage in the guild was neck and neck with me until his elemental had downtime, at which point I would zoom ahead. Frost seemed very viable depending on the fight.

 

Hate Monkey

What kind of DPS were you pulling pre-2.3 as fire on Teron?

No pushback problem? Do you mean the interrupting casts problem? If that, yea fire gains a small bit off dps from that, and being able to get casts off faster too!

How are you fighting lag with AM? Would think it would be doing the same as fire.

This was always true even before this patch. That's why in all the modeling done on specs and dps, a deep frost spec, with elemental up always tops the dps, but soon as the elemental dies off, the dps of this spec plummets.

This is making me look forward to Rage tomorrow personally. Was always able t do 1400-1500dps as fire there, and that was with bad trinket combos. Wonder how much dps the mages with perfect gear gained really.

 

Northerner

If I return, I'll believe it when I see it.

Honestly, what changed? Even if the new anti-latency works, it benefits Shadowbolt more than Fireball (and shadowbolt the same as frostbolt as it happens, barring co-efficients and ISB etc). Think about it.

I'd love to crunch real parses at this point but I retired for other reasons and I'm sure not begging back a raid slot just to check my "new" against old. There simply is not any possible way though that these changes will result in a much different unpredicted relative ranking for dps.

 

angelumiere

Thank you Dryssa.

I loved the Arcane spec, but respec isn't really an problem, it's the price to pay if you want to down bosses.

Personnal DPS is nice, but does anyone know what happens with the raid dps?

We have 4 affliction Warlocks and 1 Destru Warlock as well as 2 SP in the guild and since they allready use a lot of slots is fire still the best choice for the raid?

 

Northerner

To be honest, Mage dps hasn't really decided a fight, never-mind an attempt since Naxx.

It's good to contribute and obviously it's important to beat enrage timers or situational needs but seriously... if you are missing those milestones, it is probably not due to mages hitting 1400 instead of 1000 dps. Other changes (group synergies!, CoR/FF, proper seed use, etc) will net you more dps in the end if that is all you lack. Honestly, it is far easier to boost Rogue group dps than caster's just by mechanics and since there is a class that leverages very well, you should probably use that.

 

Searix

I was here when the topic was 2 posts in.

Sorry for the confusion, no consumable buffs (food, adept's) As expected i got fully rebuffed after rez due to ghost time.

No WWS this time, sorry Wish i'd had one to show you.

My gear is recovering from arcane spec. For a couple weeks i'll still struggle a little because i have to wear items i normally wouldn't to get my +hit back up. I plan on going up replacements to all my haste gear as they drop(Rage bracers, exalted hyjal (2k away), ring of captured, Anethereon's noose, etc.)

Conversely, your trinket selection is a bit weird

Yes, wrong terminology, sorry.

 

Northerner

Hey Searix, a few of us have been here (and elsewhere, /wink) for a good while too.

An initial positive impression is all well and good but let's be honest, there's no reason for that impression to carry through. A 5-6% tops dps increase from actual changes combined with a nebulous anti-latency change that parsed out like shit on the PTR is no cause to crow unless something is bugged or the anti-latency is suddenly working better than it did there. Even then, it helps locks more than mages.

Not here to start a fight sir, just clarifying.

 

Pintofbrew

Perhaps you should avoid ad hominem adressals and in stead read what I posted: I did not say you were wearing pre-heroic drops, I said your spec would be superior only if you were. As for adressing my gear it has neither any point nor is it what I use on bosses. I assure you I'm on 13% hit, which you'll note becomes 16% when ToW is out, something which I have in my raid.

If you want to judge information based on armory reports perhaps WOW US/EU forums are better for you.

Good luck in your scorch/fireball/fireblast rotation. I'll stick to what's proven rather than what's speculated.

 

Dustwhisper

You derailed the thread talking about his spelling and attacking a feature of him, that is ad hominem no matter how true it is or not...


Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to checking out my DPS today, I'm also going to look a bit more into haste for fire in the future, see how it pans out compared to "standard items".

 

Sorbe

I think it's both very sad and very clear what the mage role is in TBC now. It's to be a lower dps, lower aoe, lower raid synergy, low health, glass cannon. We were supposed to own ranged DPS as our original charter, but even that's not been true for a very long time(Hunters and Locks usually do better). Our one trick pony was to do massive damage, but other players dont like that in PVP or PVE and complain loudly on the forums if we actually do it.

Speaking as a mage player since Alpha, it's my opinion that all the PVP crit fun mages had with HUGE trinketed AP POM Pyros in the battlegrounds utterly poisoned the Blizzard "balance" gods against letting us be "ranged rogues" in PVP or PVE. Blizzard's new push seems to be to normalize DPS across classes, ignoring whatever utility, healing, armor the other classes have. If other classes have more defenses than mages, but similar or better DPS, how will we be competitve?

In summary, I would say that "Blizz hates mages" at this point.

P.S.> I've offered up long lists of ways to improve the mage class, but I'm convinced that Blizzard simply doesnt WANT to improve us or even grant us our due.

 

Chri

As an addendum to Searix's experiences with raid fire specs, I ran last night with a deep (61) frost spec, and did fairly well. Being significantly undergeared for BT (more or less full ssc/tk with 1 piece of t6), I still managed to hold 1100-1200 dps, not including Water Elemental damage, on most fights, with a low of about 1025 dps on Gorefiend. I definetly think frost will be able to hold its own, especially considering fights such as Illidan.

 

Sinborn

I didn't respec with the coming of 2.3. My guild has just gotten into Hyjal, and after last night we now have enough attuned to head into BT. I kept the arcane spec for yesterday because I knew we were doing Al'ar and rage to key up the stragglers.

I have a question. Can fire keep up with arcane on the trash waves in hyjal? I know arcane explosion keeps up with SoC, even post-TLC nerf. Can fire maintain the same level of AoE dps?

 

Xei

I know anecdotal evidence is generally frowned upon here, but the only boss I was in for last night (that had WWS running) was Solarian, which isn't a decent comparitor for DPS being AE dominated.

My serve of anecdotal evidence comes from Zul'Aman and the bear boss - which is essentially a stand and nuke boss. As a 2/0/59 spec sporting the lovely bugged 10%hit, ~1100 frost damage and 22% crit (before WC) I was ahead of our Lock (but is SL spec atm for Kael tanking as we are still learning it) our 10/48/3 Mage and our Hunter - all of which generally perform highly on the meters.

When/if I do get some decent WWS parses to show deep frost builds in non-AE DPS hax fights I will post them, but it has only been one day :p

"Being a leader is not a position of power. It is a position of service." ~ Barestomper

WTB Oceanic Horde PvE Players

 

◊ manly

Alright well, here's some numbers from yesterday
(keep in mind I'm still sporting MSD over CSD, and yes it sucks pretty hard. tons of wasted MSD procs on scorch.)

rage - 1700 dps (#5, no coe, no destro pot) - Wow Web Stats
anetheron - 1500 dps (#5, no coe, no destro pot) - Wow Web Stats
kaz'rogal - 1600 dps (#1, no coe, no destro pot, fucked up badly on mana usage) - Wow Web Stats
azgalor - 1275 dps (#2, no coe, no destro pot) - Wow Web Stats
naj'entus - 1575 / 1440 dps (note: my dps is lower because I keep nuking when the shield is up to keep crusade up) (#2/4, no coe, no destro pot) Wow Web Stats
supremus - 1100 / 1000 dps (#1/4, coe on, no destro pot) - Wow Web Stats

EDIT: SOC > firespec AOE, but not by that much. Mostly depends on how agressive you play, but its still a bit better.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

irbi

I've taken several WWS parses pre 2.3 where I was capable of breaking 1000 dps consistantly as an arcane mage (3blasts,1missile)

After this week I save WWS parses of the same encounters and compare the dps loss. Hopefully I will get around to posting this information for you guys.

I think player skill is something that math and raw numbers fail to demonstrate, for instance...


I know several frost mages that do not know how to utilize their skills effectivly. For instance, on Leo, I see frost mages exibit similar behavior as fire and arcane mages (i.e. "oh crap run from the whirlwind" and do 0 dps) when in fact they could chase down Leo, beat the crap out of him, and iceblock the debuff (of course dps calculations can't show you this)

Similarily single target DPS calculations don't account for threat aspects (they assume no threat issues, survibility issues, player techniques, etc)

While I think raw dps calculations are a great basis for determining a raid spec in extreme cases (a spec that has been proven to do 1000dps less than another clearly cannot compensate with player skill) I think players tend to lose sight of the skill and utility aspect of some specs as a way to compensate for a marginal difference in dps.

EJ is, and has always been, the best resource for me for class information. I would like to personally thank this community for their numerous contributions.

 

perbelly

I have only been to hyjal once with fire spec and that was the day before the patch to try to get used to it again. Our arcane mage was beating us by quite a bit but I'm not sure exactly which aoe I should've used. I was doing flamestrikes with blastwave and db when i could. The good part about that is how much mana you use. As arcane i would use my entire mana bar every wave with pots, but as fire i would have about 1/3 of my mana remaining. I wasn't sure if I should just do ae with mage armor even though I don't get hardly any of the benefits from the arcane tree.

 

◊ manly

personally I use a very simple rule of thumb for firespec aoe:

1- if combustion is up, flamestrike->blastwave
2- if blastwave is up, blastwave
3- if focus is up, flamestrike
4- arcane explosion
5- I don't use TLC anymore, although Vontre assures me its still the best. I prefer not taking the risk of having a tlc when meeting the boss, but that's not very optimal.
6- don't dragon's breath. the cone is too small.
7- if skull is up, use skull + flamestrike spam.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.