Dustwhisper

As I've mentioned a couple of times in my life as a mage, either you have the best manaregen in the world or I'm just throwing twice as many fireballs. I can't remember a fight I didn't go OOM with a restoshaman or SP with chaincasting pots, gems and evocating. I'll even go OOM on 5 min fights such as rage or vr if I try to maximize my dps.

Mana has been and is and until they fix it will be a problem. The mana-gem changes just makes up for dropping clearcasting for IV ( ( 120/3 ) * 0.1 * 400)

 

Dustwhisper

I'm not mathematician but it would be something like when ( ( time / casttime ) * 0.1 * 400 ) < ( ( time / casttime ) * critpercentage * ( manacost * 0.3 ) ) I think =)

Meaning in 40 casts with 33% critchance you'd crit every third cast theoreticaly which is 40*0.33 = 13,2 casts for 400 mana where you'll get 30% of it back which is 120 mana per fireball multiplied with 13,2 casts which is 1584 mana.

40 casts with 10% clearcasting would mean 4 free fireballs for 400 mana each which equals 1600 mana. Far as I can see around 33% crit clearcasting will always net more back than MOE. 35% it's a bit over. This doesn't model combustion into the equation though which would probably tip the scales a bit more in favour of MOE or equalise it around 33% crit.

Someone will surely prove me wrong =)

 

Emth.

Maybe i'm going mad and it's always been this way, but MSD seems to work on Evocation now.

 

ebbv

Dustwhisper, if you're going OOM as Fire with a Shadowpriest your Shadowpriest isn't very good.

I don't see how you say you're going OOM on Rage, even without a Shadowpriest. Are you hitting Fireblast every cooldown? I really don't see how that's possible. I'm a troll and I won't go OOM on Rage.

edit:

Some quick napkin math. Assume useage is 109.3 mana per second (MOE and assumed crit rate of 36%), this is assuming someone else is keeping up Scorch or your useage would be slightly better.

In a 5 minute fight of constant casting that's 32,800 mana. 3 Super Mana Potions and 3 Mana Emeralds will be 14,400 mana and assuming a base mana pool of 10,000 that's 24,400 mana. Add in an Evocation restoring 6874 mana (the extra 874 being due to 8 seconds of no mana consumption), and we're almost at that 32,800 mark. A Resto shaman would be all you need to not go OOM.

Keep in mind that I've done some assumptions here that favor the doomsday scenario of going OOM, in the 36% crit rate WITH Molten Armor and casting only Fireballs, and also not accounting for moving out of DnD.

 

Searix

Unless ignite's been changed (and i haven't seen evidence of it changing), in 2.2 it had the behavior:

If 2 fire crits happened at the same time, they would occasionally bug and only one would apply. 1000 crit 500 crit 200 ignite damage x2 instead of 300.

If an ignite ticked (Either first or second) and a fire spell crit within ~.2 seconds, the ignite would occasionally reset to full duration (intended behavior), but tick as if the ignite hadn't ticked (Previous, beneficial ignite behavior). Eg: 1000 crit 200 ignite, crit same second 200 ignite ticked for 1000, 2x 400 ignite ticks.

But it's a mathmatician's nightmare to model, probably why most people avoid it. This behavior's not hard to test on Dr. Boom though

 

Dustwhisper

You are assuming the manapots and gems will net maximum every time.

 

ebbv

No, I'm not. I'm assuming the average of 2400. You can hit each of them 3 times in 5 minutes. I am assuming the new Mana Emerald value of 1800-3000, making them the same as the potions. If you go with the current Emerald, Ruby, Citrine then things are a little grimmer but again, I had stacked things in favor of going OOM.

In a real scenario there's no reason you should be going OOM unless you are not quaffing potions and gems as fast as possible.

 

Ignus

any word on wether or not losing clearcasting is going to be viable for more undergeared persons such as myself? at SSC/TK level content, I cannot assume a Bt geared shadowpriest, nor can I assume a resto shaman in my party. If I assume a worst case scenario when speccing, will I be able to afford the loss of clearcasting? my gut says no, but theorycrafting > gut instinct. Of course, my gear is also terrible as well, so if I were to push my crit higher could I vastly increase my casting longevity, perhaps far enough to ditch clearcasting? I'm only at 25% crit with molten armor up.

 

Dustwhisper

The new managems makes up for the same amount of mana clearcasting would give you on average in 2 minutes, circa.

 

ebbv

No offense intended whatsoever (we all have to climb the gear ladder) but with your gear you should be in in SSC/TK 5-mans and KZ. Don't worry at all about what we're doing at the T5/T6 gear level, you very well may need to keep CC at least until you have some T4, and maybe even beyond that.

Also looking at your gems and what you said above, make sure when selecting gear and gems you follow the mantra hit rating (until capped) > damage > crit rating. Runed +7/+9 gems are great and all but until you're hit capped the Veiled versions are better.

 

Fizzl

I like the idea of this sort of 0/40/21 spec

Unleashed Gaming

AoE using frost, main damage spells using fire and IV*2 from cold snap. The only problem is that would require a level 73 character :P

What 3 points would you drop and why? And does dropping those points mean its still more damage than a full frost spec or not?

If only we had a 2.3.2 theory craft simulator, /grovels at Lhivera's feet

Also how do you work out a frostbolt/fireball/other's damage these days? Im tempted to try and work it out myself in excel.

 

Doroteasenjk

Groveling noted. Lhivera has posted elsewhere that Theorycraft-o-Matic has a beta version of her calculator. Note the caveats posted at the beginning of the page.

 

Fizzl

win!

Edit
OO extracting armory data as well that is swish

 

macbeet

Sweet ! -> You rock

 

Cryic

For what it's worth: I've been raiding for the last couple of weeks as deep fire 2/56/3 without clearcasting and have had no problems with mana. We are 3 bosses into BT, and 4 bosses into MH. Our shadow priest have not won a single piece of gear since TK, so that's their gear level. I have a shaman about half the time. I rarely need to use evoc, but those few times I have, it's usually a short evoc of a few seconds because the boss is at 5%.

And to top it off, I've actually been using flame caps instead of mana gems. So yeah, speccing out of clearcasting will not be a problem

Link to armory: Armory Link

Link to past raids: WWS Link

 

Pintofbrew

Hate Monkey: I'm sorry but this absurdity that crit returns so much mana as to render clearcasting obsolete can not go uncommented: If you're trying to insinuate that stacking huge amounts of crit will negate the need to evocate despite not having clearcasting you are sorely mistaken. Given MoE only returns 30% of the mana cost, a 34% crit rate will grant approximately 10% economy (a fraction more in fact, since MoE return is based on base mana cost, not the 6% reduced one we get due to Elemental Precision and Pyromania). This is the roughly the same DMP gain of clearcasting. Increasing that enough to cover for the lack of clearcasting is such a bizzare task I can't help wondering: How do you plan on achieving upwards of 50% crit, let alone 60% to gain the same DPM value?

Even so, you fail to produce any evidence why you rate crit rating at double what is conventional? Assuming that some mythical value of Crit will eventually negate your need to evocate I still doubt it will double your crit's value. If you believe it will, I would like to see some calculations as to how you arrived to that conclusion. I find it extremely hard to believe that we've been toying with give-or-take 2-3% for months now, and suddenly you turn up with a napkin-assumption that suddenly, Crit gains 100% in value. I would accept a coment of perhaps "crit has now gone to 0.9dmg from 0.7dmg given these circumstances" without questioning, but jumping to 1.4dmg?

Zeddilin: It has been said before, let it be said again. This is not the thread to ask questions in. Please use http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16781-mage_help_me_please/ As for your question, Storms is the most useless, idiotic and incredibly pointless deck out there, twice as much for a fire mage. The more crit you have, the less storms gives you. If you were managing a total crit rate of say, 15% it would give decent (but still shitty in DPS terms) buff of around 60crit rate, but given fire mages are in the low 40s it will be less valuable than 20Crit. Comparing this patent-applied-for uselessness to Crusade, still one of the best trinkets out there, is silly.

 

Ztorm

If you were forced to drop pts, the 3 in pyromaniac or playing with fire would probably get the axe. But is the extra IV really worth the loss in AoE capacity and fire talents? With this build, you wouldn't have blastwave, db, or shatter. In addition, your arcane explosions would do 40% more threat, and in hyjal, 40% threat is the difference between living to the next wave and a corpse.

 

◊ Nork

Could someone do the math for Incinerate? My numbers show it as a less than 0.12% dps increase per point (in a standard 8-1 rotation), and I'm having a hard time seeing why it's in every fire spec considering that low of a return rate. I mostly trust my numbers, but I'd really like to see if other people get the same result, or if I'm missing something.

[e] For reference, the simplest verson of my math was 0.02/17 for the 2% increased crit on Scorch, but on a spell that's only used 1/17th of the time in an 8-1 rotation (1.5 seconds out of every 25.5 seconds).

 

Pintofbrew

Nork: Incinerate is pathetic return for point in DPS terms. It does however have one rather extensive benefit:

It increases scorch's DPM substantially. Combine with potential JoW uptime, this can be a huge tool to be used. Last night we were on Morrogrim, two mages got Tombed and I had to AoE the packs myself netting in a massive mana drain. quite a bit later I was too low to comfortably AoE the next pack, so I started Evo and after the first tick I got parked into a tomb myself, netting me pot/gem/evo cooldown on 16% mana. As the murlock-tank uses JoW to melee his way up to full mana between AoE, Scorch spam on morogrim would be a hugely efficient damage source; It has 4% more crit, hence 4% more MoE, it is inherntly quite cheaper than fireball and procs twice as many JoW. Granted, it's much lower DPS, but not every fight is a single-target pewpew race.

 

Cardynal

As Pintofbrew pointed out, it's really the only thing left in fire that will increase your single target dps eventhough it is a slight increase. Another thing to look at is that it increases the crit of fireblast as well...which I always use when I have to move.

 

◊ Nork

That's true. I was mainly looking at it in terms of freeing up points for other situational talents - Blazing Speed, Imp Flamestrike, or Imp. Arcane Explosion (until the next patch prompts people away from the 10/47/3 build).

 

Queuetip

Regarding Ignites,

Wow Web Stats

03:21'27.046 Fusoya's Fireball crits The Lurker Below for 3817 Fire damage
546 Fusoya gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
937 Fusoya gains 127 Mana from Master of Elements
937 Fusoya gains 29 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
03:21'28.437 Fusoya gains 19 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
03:21'29.015 Fusoya's Fireball dots The Lurker Below for 29 Fire damage
578 Fusoya's Ignite dots The Lurker Below for 763 Fire damage
03:21'30.338 Fusoya's Fireball crits The Lurker Below for 4153 Fire damage
765 Fusoya gains 85 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
03:21'31.151 Fusoya gains 29 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
171 Fusoya gains 127 Mana from Master of Elements
171 Fusoya gains 25 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
979 Fusoya gains 28 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
03:21'32.323 Fusoya's Fireball dots The Lurker Below for 29 Fire damage
812 Fusoya's Ignite dots The Lurker Below for 1213 Fire damage
03:21'33.166 Fusoya gains 27 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
526 Fusoya's Fireball crits The Lurker Below for 3852 Fire damage
963 Fusoya gains 28 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
963 Fusoya gains 30 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
03:21'34.421 Fusoya gains 127 Mana from Master of Elements
421 Fusoya gains 25 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Furelise
03:21'35.187 Fusoya gains Lesser Spell Blasting of NULL
541 Fusoya's Fireball dots The Lurker Below for 22 Fire damage (6 resisted)
963 Fusoya's Ignite dots The Lurker Below for 1377 Fire damage
03:21'36.651 Fusoya's Fireball hits The Lurker Below for 2770 Fire damage
03:21'37.203 Fusoya gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
03:21'38.000 Fusoya's Ignite dots The Lurker Below for 1376 Fire damage

Sorry if it looks sloppy. You can view the real page through the link.
3 crits in a row. They appear to stack, because the last two ignites are the same value.
However, it doesn't look like a direct 20% stack.

 

Rouncer

I've been thinking about this one a bunch lately and I'm not really sure which way to go with the last 2 fire points in my planned build.

Planning on a 0/47/14 build - basically

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

but I can't decide whether to stick the 2 points in Incinerate or to get Blastwave.

leaning towards Incinerate but would love to hear some other opinions.


(Currently my plan for AEing is to wear the Ashtongue Trinket and to Proc it with Flamestrike and then IV+Blizzard and then Flamestrike again and back to Blizzard repeating.)

 

epiphenom

Have to agree with ebbv in that it seems like your shadow priest is probably not that good. I haven't had to pot, gem, or Evocate on Rage in quite a long time, with shadow priest/ele shaman in my group. For that matter, the last BT+Hyjal clears combined, as firespec, I took two mana pots and consumed one gem. Mana is a problem in that we're still somewhat shackled to a shadow priest, and the gem change is a positive step in that direction, but I'll wait until I try it to decide whether it's enough.

 

ebbv

It's well known that Ignite stacks since 2.0. The current intended functionality is:

Fireball crit for 2000
Ignite tick for 400
Fireball crit for 2000
Ignite tick for 600
Fireball crit for 2000
Ignite tick for 700
Ignite tick for 700

And it does this most of the time since 2.0.

What people were talking about is how it can sometimes bug out currently and you can lose some damage if you have 2 crits that happen at the same time. Though this too has been known and is not really a big deal, so I don't know why it became a topic.

What is a worthwhile topic regarding Ignite is how it is a horrible talent when compared with Ruin and Improved Shadowbolt. Chain crits for a Fire Mage will at the very least delay damage and at the worst often result in large amounts of damage never hitting before a boss dies.

When Blizzard nerfed Ignite to work "as intended" (like it does now) they nerfed the hell out of Fire when compared to Destruction locks. Granted the ridiculous rolling Ignites we used to be able to build when all Mages shared a single fully stacking Ignite were absurd, but I do not think it is at all absurd for each Individual Mage's Ignite to fully stack (ie the above example would be 400, 800, 1200, 1200). The problem this causes is in the amount of debuff slots taken up but I have a simple solution to that; get rid of the Fireball DoT.