[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 61

epiphenom · 11/26/07, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by Queuetip

Regarding Ignites,

Sorry if it looks sloppy. You can view the real page through the link.
3 crits in a row. They appear to stack, because the last two ignites are the same value.
However, it doesn't look like a direct 20% stack.

The formula for Ignite on Ignite has been, since 2.0, that if you ignite on top of an ignite with a tick remaining, you halve the remaining tick on the old ignite and spread it over your current one. Your logs show it perfectly.

Fireball 3817 -> Ignite 1527 (so 763/764)
tick 763 (764 remaining)
Fireball 4153 -> Ignite 1661 (830/831), plus half of the 764 remaining on the old ignite (382) per tick, so (1212/1213)
tick 1213 (831 + 382)
Fireball 3852 -> Ignite 1541 (770/771) plus half of the 1212 remaining on the old ignite (606) per tick, so 1376/1377
tick 1377
tick 1376

Total fireball damage 11822
Total Ignite damage 4729
11822*0.4 = 4729 (well, 4728.8, but close enough)

The point is that you didn't gain any extra damage out of it. Your crits all yielded 40% of their damage in extra, just like Ignite is supposed to do. If you'd crit the same three fireballs, five seconds apart, you'd have seen six ignite ticks of 763, 764, 830, 831, 770, and 771, and that also sums to 4729.

Hate Monkey · 11/26/07, 6:32 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Hate Monkey: You have posted what seems to have caused a ripple in this thread: "allows for Ignites to stack nearly twice as fast as normal". What does this mean? How does an Ignite "stack" other than the latent damage from the previous ingite simply adding on to the damage of the new ignite? Assume two spells, both critting for 100 damage: The first one assigns two tics of 20 damage but before the last tic is done the new spell crits, assigning 2x20 of it's own. The ignite then adds the remaining 20 of the previous one which has been (I'll use what I understand as) "stacked" and results in 2x30 tics, which is exactly the same as would have been done given no haste at all.

Unless you're implying/can prove that the new ignite falsely gives, eg, 2 new stacks of 40 (because it can't calculate the 1st tic has been consumed and is simply adding 40+40 and spreading it over the new two tics) I'm failing to understand how you come up with 1crit = 1.4dmg. Even if stacking a dozen buffs brings you to GCD casting speed; what percentage of the fight do you expect to remain in that bracket and how do you presume this has such a huge knock-on effect as to double Crit value?

All evidence I've seen of ignites occurring after previous ones have already been on has pointed to ignite tics being lost in the flow of information. How many times have you seen fireball-fireblast double-dipping resulting in only Fblast's ignite ticking? This was the main reason I advocate against 33.28.0: Critting repeatedly sometimes gives full ignites and some times not.

I think that posting the maths with which you came up with the crit values would help a lot more than trying to verbalize what is a rather hard thing to explain. I'm very curious to see concrete evidence/proof of what's going on with ignite.

I haven't had the time to get back on the PTR and get a full log of testing to provide the numbers I was working with, but I might be basing to much off my Troll racial Berserking when calculating the numbers. And I'm not coming up with a 1crit=1.4damage, it's more of a 1crit=1.2 damage, so I'll get a full new set of numbers to work with, and not use Berserking for one set of parsing and see what numbers I get back.

One thing you guys are forgetting is that with Clearcasting, when two proc back to back, you enter the non casting state of regen, and can get multiple ticks of regen at the time, affecting your overall regen, which isn't noted in the combat log normally. While a back to back procing isn't a normal occurence, it happens often enough to not disregard it.

Wow Web Stats

This last weeks Teron kill for my guild. For me I have 11,000 mana raid buffed, and ended this fight at near 4000 mana, taking out my clearcast procs, I would ended near 1600, that is if I'm remembering the correct numbers. Going through the numbers for the mages, for Mandos, he gains more from MoE procs than Clearcasting, but for Melacath, he gains more from Cleastcast than MoE. Thats the general number I'm working with. If you gain on average 1000~ more mana per fight back from MoE than Clearcasting, you need to raise your crit up to the level which MoE returns the combined mana back.

I wont be able to effectively get a decent amount of PTR data till Thursday at the earliest, so don't expect me to be providing solid numbers till then, just a time issue. But again, it could be that Berserking is that good when stacked that is causing such a fuss. To note though, Bloodlust+IV+Skull is already confirmed 1.88s cast Fireballs on the PTR, so a little passive haste brings it to the point where you should be able to crit before Ignite ticks happen and bug them out, unconfirmed though.

Highwindkain · 11/26/07, 7:12 PM

I have frequented this forum pretty often for lots of great advice and had a question regarding trinket selection. At present when I go to down a raid boss I swap out [Xi'ri's Gift] for [Starkiller's Bauble]. I always keep [Icon of the Silver Crescent] for my other trinket. Given the relatively low value of crit rating I have assumed that the Bauble's hit rating would easily beat the amout of crit on Xi'ri's and might make up for the lesser damage on proc. One trinket I have always thought about using is [Quagmirran's Eye]. Assuming a ratio of 1.3 damage to 1 hit the passive damage on the eye seems like it would only be marginally better than the hit on the bauble. So I guess my question is for a sustained fight such as Gruul or Magtheridon is the proc on [Quagmirran's Eye] going to be better than on use of [Starkiller's Bauble] enough so that I should resocket myself with more +spell hit gems to reach the cap without needing the bauble?

Thanks!

Hate Monkey · 11/26/07, 7:16 PM

Originally Posted by Highwindkain

*snip*

Thanks!

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18441-m...tional_thread/

Should read that first, because priority #1 is to "max" your hit, then go for the other stats.

Ignus · 11/26/07, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by ebbv

No offense intended whatsoever (we all have to climb the gear ladder) but with your gear you should be in in SSC/TK 5-mans and KZ. Don't worry at all about what we're doing at the T5/T6 gear level, you very well may need to keep CC at least until you have some T4, and maybe even beyond that.

Also looking at your gems and what you said above, make sure when selecting gear and gems you follow the mantra hit rating (until capped) > damage > crit rating. Runed +7/+9 gems are great and all but until you're hit capped the Veiled versions are better.

thanks for the concern, but this mage is my 2nd level 70, and I hit cap like 2 weeks ago XD. My gems are mere placeholders until I get some real gear, and I lurk here enough to know everything I can possibly learn.

Thank you though, and thanks as well to that other poster who mentioned that new mana gem is equivalent to 2 minutes of clearcasting.

Searix · 11/26/07, 7:33 PM

Like i was saying earlier, ignite can and does give EXTRA beneficial damage occasionally if the fire spell crits RIGHT as one of the two ignites ticks tick. I'd assumed someone would test this and find it out, but i'll do it myself when i get off work in a couple hours if no one has done it yet

Sancus · 11/26/07, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hate Monkey

If you gain on average 1000~ more mana per fight back from MoE than Clearcasting, you need to raise your crit up to the level which MoE returns the combined mana back.

You need to do no such thing. What are you talking about? You don't need to have the same mana regen at all unless you are actually going oom and need to stop casting, which shouldn't be the case with pots/new mana gems/shadow priest.

Why do you think that you need to "make up" the lost mana regen of clearcasting via crit? If you have mana problems, it's physically impossible to make up the mana regen of clearcasting via crits, and you should stay 10/48/3 if this is an issue for you, not try to kludge it with crit, which simply cannot work.

graver · 11/26/07, 8:15 PM

Anyolse else was suprised by results which new Lhivera's script gave?

On the old script (Lhivera's Theorycraft Script) with all my current gear and deep frost spec i have 1.00 Damage equal to 1.62 Crit Rating and 0.92 Haste Rating. On the new one (Theorycraft-o-Matic) with same gear and spec i got my crit raiting buffed very much somehow. 1.00 Damage there equals 1.06 Crit Rating and 0.99 Haste Rating.

I dont get it. How can addition of IV buff DPS gain from crit raiting so much?

Highwindkain · 11/26/07, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Hate Monkey

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18441-m...tional_thread/

Should read that first, because priority #1 is to "max" your hit, then go for the other stats.

I know. I am saying I can swap in that trinket (the bauble) to max my hit rating which is what I am doing presently. I could resocket so that I don't need that trinket at a raid boss but would loose damage that would be made up for by quag's eye in the resocketing process. My questions was is the proc on quag's going to be better than the on use on the hit bauble - so much so that i should resocket for the hit w/o the trinket? by swapping a piece in for bosses i can use xi'ri's when not at bosses for a significant boost to crit rating and the on use damage bonus while still being hit capped for trash.

JasonX · 11/26/07, 10:02 PM

I simply don't understand how the value of crit increases in 2.3.2. The mechanics of crit did not change at all (unless someone can prove that there are changes), neither do ignite, MoE or any other talents involving crit. So, how is it that people perceive the value of crit to have increased? The only thing that can increase the value of crit is CSD, which should increase its value slightly since your crit hits harder with the meta gem.

1% crit still returns 0.3% mana cost on average(with 3/3 MoE), regardless if you have clearcasting or not. Ignite mechanics still works in the same way, so I don't see how is it a factor in determining that crit is more valuable in 2.3.2.

◊ Vontre · 11/26/07, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by JasonX

I simply don't understand how the value of crit increases in 2.3.2. The mechanics of crit did not change at all (unless someone can prove that there are changes), neither do ignite, MoE or any other talents involving crit. So, how is it that people perceive the value of crit to have increased? The only thing that can increase the value of crit is CSD, which should increase its value slightly since your crit hits harder with the meta gem.

1% crit still returns 0.3% mana cost on average(with 3/3 MoE), regardless if you have clearcasting or not. Ignite mechanics still works in the same way, so I don't see how is it a factor in determining that crit is more valuable in 2.3.2.

The value of crit did not increase in 2.3.2. I don't know anyone who thinks it did.

Finkum · 11/27/07, 12:13 AM

Presupposing:

- a spec without clearcasting
- no use of the improved mana gems (for simplicity)

You could make an argument that spellcrit's relative value, in terms of mana longevity, has increased when considering mana gains during a fight (i.e. the returns from MoE will comprise a larger percentage of your total mana returned by virtue of their simply being less mana returned overall, with no contribution from clearcasting). However, as in absolute terms MoE is returning the same as always this isn't really particularly helpful. And of course, if you are having mana issues, the correct answer is to either 1) get a (better) shadow priest or 2) use pots more frequently, not 3) stack more spellcrit.

Muphrid · 11/27/07, 1:06 AM

Originally Posted by Finkum

Presupposing:

- a spec without clearcasting
- no use of the improved mana gems (for simplicity)

You could make an argument that spellcrit's relative value, in terms of mana longevity, has increased when considering mana gains during a fight (i.e. the returns from MoE will comprise a larger percentage of your total mana returned by virtue of their simply being less mana returned overall, with no contribution from clearcasting). However, as in absolute terms MoE is returning the same as always this isn't really particularly helpful. And of course, if you are having mana issues, the correct answer is to either 1) get a (better) shadow priest or 2) use pots more frequently, not 3) stack more spellcrit.

By virtue of spending more net mana per second (or having less regeneration through various abilities), the value of crit actually decreases, as it has a less substantial impact on DPM than it did before.

Finkum · 11/27/07, 1:26 AM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

By virtue of spending more net mana per second (or having less regeneration through various abilities), the value of crit actually decreases, as it has a less substantial impact on DPM than it did before.

Let me see if I understand you correctly: you mean that because the total amount of mana you can spend before going OOM is lower (without clearcasting), the total number of casts (and thus proportionally the number of crits) will be lower, so there will be a net loss of mana returned from MoE (when compared to a spec with clearcasting)?

This means that in absolute terms (i.e. the ones that count) crit is indeed less valuable. Nonetheless, if you are just considering the percentages, a spec without clearcasting will have a higher percentage (but lower quantity) of mana returned via MoE than one with it (assuming other mana gains are constant). I fully realise how silly this view is; I was just trying to come up with some rationale, however spurious, for considering spellcrit to be more valuable.

Sancus · 11/27/07, 1:49 AM

With 1 damage = 1.46 crit = 0.95 haste, [Cloak of the Illidari Council] is 62.286 damage, [Shroud of the Highborne] is 61.154(including int->crit).

Itemization ftw.

Zwink · 11/27/07, 3:24 AM

Originally Posted by Sancus

With 1 damage = 1.46 crit = 0.95 haste, [Cloak of the Illidari Council] is 62.286 damage, [Shroud of the Highborne] is 61.154(including int->crit).

Itemization ftw.

Plugging it into Vontre's spreadsheet using the gear in my armory, I'm getting that [Shroud of the Highborne] is an 3.29 dps upgrade when spamming fireball compared to [Cloak of the Illidari Council].

Muphrid · 11/27/07, 3:26 AM

Originally Posted by Finkum

Let me see if I understand you correctly: you mean that because the total amount of mana you can spend before going OOM is lower (without clearcasting), the total number of casts (and thus proportionally the number of crits) will be lower, so there will be a net loss of mana returned from MoE (when compared to a spec with clearcasting)?

This means that in absolute terms (i.e. the ones that count) crit is indeed less valuable. Nonetheless, if you are just considering the percentages, a spec without clearcasting will have a higher percentage (but lower quantity) of mana returned via MoE than one with it (assuming other mana gains are constant). I fully realise how silly this view is; I was just trying to come up with some rationale, however spurious, for considering spellcrit to be more valuable.

Restated, consider that going from, say, 2 mana used per second to 1 mana/sec. increases your DPM (where mana cost of the ability is mitigated by mana gains during the course of casting) by 100%, but going from 1 mana/sec. to 0 increases it infinitely.

This effect is at play all the time, at any gear level. In short, by removing clearcasting, effective mana cost of all abilities has increased, meaning that the percentage increase in DPM due to crit has dropped, lowering the value of crit.

Skinkelinken · 11/27/07, 4:04 AM

Im seriously thinking about frost now that IV is implemented.

Anyone compared the dps of blizzard compared to flamestrike?
The crit rating should be about the same if you go for frostbite and shatter?

What Im thinking is to get 1 point in imp blizzard just to get the chill effect and then maxing out frostbite and shatter.

Another question i got for you, everyone discussing specs seem to wanna keep 2 points in arcane subtlety, is this only for AE threat or does it fill any other purpose?

Sackobones · 11/27/07, 4:09 AM

10 points of spell penetration.

Skinkelinken · 11/27/07, 4:20 AM

Originally Posted by Sackobones

10 points of spell penetration.

Yes, but isnt it stated that you have no PVE use for spell penetration since it dosent effect level based magic resistance?

Sancus · 11/27/07, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by Zwink

Plugging it into Vontre's spreadsheet using the gear in my armory, I'm getting that [Shroud of the Highborne] is an 3.29 dps upgrade when spamming fireball compared to [Cloak of the Illidari Council].

What's your pve gear like? My equivalencies were done with Lhivera's 2.2(not.2) theorycraft with 1180 +fire damage and also flask, oil, and food, with a roughly 35%(after talents, combustion) crit rate.

Frenzi · 11/27/07, 6:53 AM

I checked the cloak out and came up with:

[Cloak of the Illidari Council] = 58.5 equivalent +dmg

[Shroud of the Highborne] = 57.8 equivalent +dmg

But you have to take into account Vontre's spreadsheet calculates for activated buffs like trinkets, bloodlust, consumables etc.

The haste effect should get some additional benefit. It also has the extended benefit of giving you a higher chance to finish your cast on a movement fight.

Sancus · 11/27/07, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by Frenzi

I checked the cloak out and came up with:

[Cloak of the Illidari Council] = 58.5 equivalent +dmg

[Shroud of the Highborne] = 57.8 equivalent +dmg

But you have to take into account Vontre's spreadsheet calculates for activated buffs like trinkets, bloodlust, consumables etc.

The haste effect should get some additional benefit. It also has the extended benefit of giving you a higher chance to finish your cast on a movement fight.

You missed the crit rating from int, btw, and also, plugging stuff into Vontre's spreadsheet I got 3dps in favor of Illidari Council, so maybe it was misread heh.

Finkum · 11/27/07, 7:04 AM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

Restated, consider that going from, say, 2 mana used per second to 1 mana/sec. increases your DPM (where mana cost of the ability is mitigated by mana gains during the course of casting) by 100%, but going from 1 mana/sec. to 0 increases it infinitely.

This effect is at play all the time, at any gear level. In short, by removing clearcasting, effective mana cost of all abilities has increased, meaning that the percentage increase in DPM due to crit has dropped, lowering the value of crit.

Well this is true for all mana gain sources, not just crit (if I'm understanding you correctly). If you dropped MoE but kept clearcasting, then it would be equally true that the percentage increase DPM from clearcasting would drop, lowering the value of those talent points (to paraphrase). (I emphasise this just in case anyone thought spellcrit alone was penalised).

Anyway, to cut a rather abstruse discussion short, I think we can both agree that speccing out of clearcasting reduces the positive effect of spellcrit in terms of DPM, but will result in a larger percentage (but smaller amount) of mana returned by MoE (my initial point).

Aside: I may need to rethink my love affair with parenthesis.

Frenzi · 11/27/07, 7:31 AM

Originally Posted by Sancus

You missed the crit rating from int, btw, and also, plugging stuff into Vontre's spreadsheet I got 3dps in favor of Illidari Council, so maybe it was misread heh.

Good point, how much is 7 int worth in crit rating? I have it at 2.6 which would add 1.7 to my value for the highborne cloak, not sure if that is correct though?