Sancus

Broken Down...
(equivalencies from Lhivera's Theorycraft Script, v2.3, not 2.3.2 with 1180dmg/301 crit rating/141 haste)

[Shroud of the Highborne]
32 haste * 1.05 = 33.6dmg
23 +dmg = 23dmg
24 int(24/80*22) = 6.6 crit*0.69 = 4.554dmg

Total: 61.154

[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
25 crit *0.69 = 17.25dmg
42 +dmg = 42dmg
16int = 4.4 crit*0.69 = 3.036dmg

Total: 62.286

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Frenzi

Ahh well according to Lhivera's site for me crit only has a Value of 0.66 and Haste is 1.09 so my numbers will be different to yours and favours the Highborne over the Illidari.

Also is (24/80*22) correct, I thought 1% crit from int was 59.5?

 

Sancus

At level 60, it was =)

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

ebbv

Are you serious? Blizzard can't crit.

It is for the threat reduction.

 

Roywyn

Council cloak is mostly damage, and some crit. Highborne cloak is mostly haste and some damage.

Thus, Highborne cloak scales better with your damage/crit, and its value improves when you get better gear (mainly dmg/crit upgrades with the current gear choices).
Also, flask/oil/food are 145 dmg, wrath of air totem is another 101. That's quite a difference between buffed and unbuffed, and I don't think your 1180 fire damage is fully buffed

 

Frenzi

This is what I got with v2.3 with 1126dmg/397 crit rating/76 haste (unbuffed)

[Shroud of the Highborne]
32 haste * 1.06 = 33.92dmg
23 +dmg = 23dmg
23 int(24/80*22.1) = 6.35375 crit*0.65 = 4.1299375dmg

Total: 61.0499375

[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
25 crit *0.65 = 16.25dmg
42 +dmg = 42dmg
16 int(16/80*22.1) = 4.4 crit*0.65 = 2.873dmg

Total: 61.123

Once you add any short term damage buffs though it would probably favour the Highborne cloak.

 

Skinkelinken

Didnt know that, thanks for the info

 

graver

So is it only me who saw a dramatical increase of value of critical strike raiting in Lhivera's new script? (Theorycraft-o-Matic)

Is it some kinda of bag? On my own math 1.00 spell damage cant equal 1.05 Crit Rating.

 

Frenzi

Mine was 0.66 instead of 0.65

 

ebbv

Whatever the reason for Lhivera's script overvaluing crit rating (on purpose or a bug) it's clearly incorrect, so just ignore it.

The "golden rule" will remain true unless blizzard changes something a lot more significant than Icy Veins. Hit rating > haste rating > damage > crit rating.

 

Sancus

I get extremely high values for crit rating(1.00 Crit Rating: 0.96 Damage, 0.94 Haste Rating) with Deep Frost specs in Lhivera's Theorycraft.

I have no idea why crit is so much better for Frost than Fire, though, especially since Fire's multiplier is better. Maybe it's just that damage is worse? Or maybe it's wrong, I dunno.

You make a good point, inc calculations for realistic damage levels :P

Broken Down...
(equivalencies from Lhivera's Theorycraft Script, v2.3, not 2.3.2 with 1426dmg/301 crit rating/141 haste)

[Shroud of the Highborne]
32 haste * 1.19 = 38.08
23 +dmg = 23dmg
24 int(24/80*22) = 6.6 crit*0.78 = 5.148dmg

Total: 66.228

[Cloak of the Illidari Council]
25 crit *0.78 = 19.5
42 +dmg = 42dmg
16int = 4.4 crit*0.78 = 3.432dmg

Total: 64.932

And we have a win, at T6 with proper buffs, the healing haste close is significantly better. Good. Game. Speaking of Haste cloaks, has anyone seen [Shadowcaster's Drape] drop? The abundance of healing haste cloaks and absence of +dmg is very conspicuous.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Sengiratolom

frostbolt gets slightly less from +dmg due to the build in snare but +dmg should still be more beneficial then crit by a good margin, especially since it affects your WE aswell

 

Searix

Taken today off the PTR

11/27 08:31:23.234 You fail to cast Fireball: Another action is in progress.
11/27 08:31:24.577 Boom Bot is killed by Suicide.
11/27 08:31:24.577 Boom Bot is killed by Suicide.
11/27 08:31:24.577 Boom Bot dies.
11/27 08:31:24.577 Boom Bot dies.
11/27 08:31:24.984 Dr. Boom suffers 28 Fire damage from your Fireball.
11/27 08:31:24.984 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 4291 Fire damage.
11/27 08:31:25.796 Dr. Boom is afflicted by Ignite.
11/27 08:31:25.796 You gain 127 Mana from Master of Elements.
11/27 08:31:27.031 Dr. Boom suffers 27 Fire damage from your Fireball.
11/27 08:31:27.031 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 4449 Fire damage.
11/27 08:31:27.609 You gain 128 Mana from Master of Elements.
11/27 08:31:29.015 Dr. Boom suffers 28 Fire damage from your Fireball.
11/27 08:31:29.437 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 4285 Fire damage.
11/27 08:31:29.437 Dr. Boom suffers 1748 Fire damage from your Ignite.
11/27 08:31:29.796 You gain 128 Mana from Master of Elements.
11/27 08:31:31.312 Dr. Boom suffers 28 Fire damage from your Fireball.
11/27 08:31:31.312 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 4311 Fire damage.
11/27 08:31:31.749 Dr. Boom suffers 2605 Fire damage from your Ignite.
11/27 08:31:31.921 You gain 127 Mana from Master of Elements.
11/27 08:31:33.312 Dr. Boom suffers 27 Fire damage from your Fireball.
11/27 08:31:33.515 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 2806 Fire damage.
11/27 08:31:33.749 Dr. Boom suffers 3467 Fire damage from your Ignite.
11/27 08:31:34.749 Fel Infusion fades from you.
11/27 08:31:34.749 Icy Veins fades from you.
11/27 08:31:35.546 Dr. Boom suffers 27 Fire damage from your Fireball.
11/27 08:31:35.546 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 2763 Fire damage.
11/27 08:31:35.765 Dr. Boom suffers 3467 Fire damage from your Ignite.
11/27 08:31:35.765 Ignite fades from Dr. Boom.

First 2 bolded ignites are free +damage working pre-BC, as i derived earlier. My fireball cast time was 2.08 seconds with everything hasty popped, coinciding nicely with ignite ticks.

 

ebbv

Yeah that is working like Pre-BC Ignite. Now, was it consistently working that way on PTR or just this one time?

Easiest way to test is with Scorch. If it's really been changed back to rolling like that it will help a bit with our DPS gap to Destruction locks. It won't close it by any means, but it will help.

 

macbeet

Maybe it is working because his Fireball was near the 2 seconds of ignite... maybe the "bug" can be reproduced by spacing firecrits in nearly exact 2 second intervalls. Let's try this with fireball rank 3 (:

 

Lhivera

I neglected to change the frost spec stat equivalency functions' base spell for comparison to the IV + Waterbolt average. Should be working correctly now.

 

Cardynal

I'm going to run some tests on the PTR today to see if they're really self rolling or if that was just a fluke. If they are...that would greatly increase the importance of crit and possibly haste. This sounds a bit too powerful to be intended.

 

andastra

Lhivera,

I plugged some of my numbers into your calculator. I have 419 int, 242 spi, 369 crit rating, 164 hit rating, 0 haste rating and 1225 damage. I noticed that going from 1223 damage to 1224 damage, the relative values of crit rating and haste rating versus damage goes from .64 and 1.08 respectively to .69 and 1.18. It seems kinda odd to me.

 

Moriendi(SC)

Taken into consideration the Icey Veins Talent, if anyone has time to run the Dps / Dpm breakdowns between 3/47/11 and 0/40/21 and 10/48/3 that would be very much appreciated. Also, i'm curious as to the mechanics of Icey veins with the troll racial.

If the IV is a 20% haste increase, and beserking increases cast speed by 10% (when full life), would they stack multiplicitively, giving a 32% increased cast speed? I know the tooltip is misleading so correct me if i'm wrong.

Also, can someone confirm the gem requirements for post patch CSD?

 

Lhivera

It could be a rounding issue. Which spec were you looking at?

It might be helpful for me to show part of the interim calculation...what the script is doing is recalculating average damage using an increase of 10 in each stat and then comparing the different increases. Perhaps I should include "Adding 10 (stat X) increases average damage by (Y)" lines in that section so people have an easy way to check it against values in the top of the calculator. At least until the bugs are ironed out.

 

Cardynal

Wowwiki has this reported bug for ignite...which could be the "rolling" that is shown in the log above.

 

Lhivera

OK, I have a question for Arcane mages while I work on trying to get an Arcane/IV spec implemented on the TCoM: When timing your casts so that your next AB will start casting with the debuff up and end casting with the debuff down, how much "dead time" will you opt to take instead of trying to squeeze an extra cast in? Example: You have 1.75 seconds left before the debuff expires. You have Icy Veins up and no additional haste, so your next AB will take 1.53 seconds. Do you cast a Scorch, or do you wait .25 seconds and start the AB?

 

Sinborn

I apologize if this has been asked already (just poppin in to read some TC during my lunch), but is IV affected by cold snap? And, is the water elemental's cast time affected by IV?

 

ebbv

Yeah that's why I asked if it was happening consistently. Ignite has had inconsistent behavior (gaining additional rolling damage and sometimes not gaining damage) ever since the 2.0 change.

 

Flareyoshi

Hey guys, been looking over the thread and I am surprised no one has suggested this one yet. Perhaps I'm a fool, but tell me what you think --

0/40/21 for maximized Single Target DPS.

Cold Snap is moving to Ice Block, and thus 21 in frost would give it to you. Thus I'd have 3 uses of IV in a 10 minute fight; given mana consumption, good shadow priest, pots and gems, I daresay it's doable. Admittedly it completely nerfs AoE utility (I'm losing Arcane Concentration, Dragon's Breath, and Blast Wave in the way I have it set up), which is why I said for single target DPS, warranting perhaps mid-raid respecs for the anal retentive (if anyone should be so patient).

If anyone could throw up the stats for DPS on this I'd be much obliged; I haven't gotten into the exact mathematical mechanics as much as the rest of you.