ebbv

People have suggested it, it was discussed earlier in the thread. The additional benefit gained from Cold Snapping IV once every 8 minutes does not compare to the loss of points in Playing With Fire and/or Pyromaniac.

 

andastra

Oh, sorry, forgot about that. It's deep fire (10/47/3 +1).

 

Cardynal

Has anyone ever tried using scorch with this? If it's consistant in that critting 100th of a second before the ignite tick will trigger a rolling effect, then you could wait .4 seconds after every scorch to begin a new one. In end game gear...it's possible to reach 50% crit if stacking for it...meaning you'd have a 75% chance of critting before one of the two ignite ticks.

 

Zure

Dealing with a bunch of smaller posts:

Rolling ignites would be a huge deal, and would make crit scale very well with itself. At 40% crit+CSD, 5 stack capped rolling ignites would add about 7% dps for pure fireball spam over non-rolling ignites, at 46% crit about 10%, at 80% crit about 53% ;-). Of course the ability to use combustion/scorch/fireblast would raise this number. With optimal play and raid composition (ret pally+elem shaman+boomkin), we'd probably be within shouting distance of Destro locks on fights that were purely standstill, but would still fall way behind if there were much movement at all (due to ignites falling off, and them being able to tap on the run). This is all too speculative to spend time doing any meaningful modeling of the effect (though it is worth noting that 33/28 might be re-vivified by rolling ignites).

Sinborn: IV is reset by coldsnap. IV has no effect on Water Elemental.

Moriendi: IV and Zerking stack as Cast time /1.2/1.1, so your 32% figure is accurate.

Flareyoshi Re: 0/40/21... Giving up 1 point in pyromanic and 1 in playing with fire basically negates the benefit of Cold snap-->IV. Losing MoE (if you lose incinerate, that's another bit of damage lost) makes you even more dependent on outside mana regen (say, shadow priest dying early). Numbers were run a few pages back on the benefit of cold snap --> icy veins. You should be able to compare that to 1% dmg, 1% crit fairly easily yourself.

Also, you lose Arcane Sub/Blastwave/Dragon's Breath/Imp Flame Strike meaning you are a very weak contributor on AOE. I know you limited your post to single target, but AOE is an unavoidable part of our role in any instance, from 5 man to 25.

 

abdeal24

I am wondering about 10/48/3 after the patch. In the long term of a boss fight, will the gain of 20% cast speed overide the benefit of clearcasting in something along the lines of a 0/50/11 build?

 

Pintofbrew

Gentlemen please don't rehash the same questions, particularly in the same thread they have been suggested.

Yes x/42/11+8 will out-dps 10/48/3. Yes it will be less DPM. Can your group setup handle your loss of Clearcast? A good portion of the mana consumption benefit we lose from Clearcast will be replenished with the new mana stones so it's less than you think. Particularly as one in 8 clearcasts (or more) will be wasted on Scorches.

Given you're past Karazahn-level, or given you're there with a Spriest or resto shaman there seems to be no reason to stick with 10.48.3 instead of 2.42.11+6 for raid environments.

Likewise, no 0/40/21 is not meaningful enough to surpass 2/42/11+6.

Try not to ask questions whose answers are 2 clicks of "previous page" away.

 

Arlis

Thank you for the great information. Sorry I repeated a question, I was at work and did a very fast search for what I was looking for. Looking forward to plugging that into Vontre's new sheet when released.

 

Alvira

For me I prefer to wait just that little bit. Maybe because of lag. But this is why I can actually do 3x AB, 2x FB as a rotation and still get it right. But once I try anything like 3xAB, 3x FB, or 3xAB, 2x FB, 1 scorch. Then I have a high chance of missing the debuff when I start up my next AB again.

Right now, with 3XAB, 2x FB. Its almost perfect. Sometimes, if my lag goes down a lot, I might actually refresh my debuff. But that's fine. Better to refresh it than end up having a 2.5 sec AB cast again.

 

Alvira

Have a question. When I was testing on PTR, I noticed that with max AB debuff up, plus with IV activated, my AB cast was 1.25 seconds on the tooltip. Does this really mean I can go lower than the global cooldown? I dun see any "break" in my spellcasting, and the casts just keep on going. Its hard to tell if I am really casting at 1.5 sec or 1.25 sec because both seem very fast to me. lol

 

JasonX

Maybe you can include timestamp in your combatlog, and refer to your combatlog for answer.

 

Hate Monkey

Ok, so I've got a little bit of data to show one thing I was trying to convey across, not enough to provide definitive proof of the newer crit value;
Full parse here: Wow Web Stats
3 Fireball crits, leading to 3 different Ignite tick. 1273->1888->2244->2244
Not exactly the same as pre-TBC ignite rolling, but its a 3s fireball casts getting those numbers making my numbers work so far. Will get better, and more testing later this week,

 

epiphenom

Nothing is stacking here.

crit 6366 --> Ignite is 2547 (1273/1274)
tick 1273 (1274 remains)
crit 6258 --> 2503 (1251/1252) add remaining 1274/2 = 637 to each tick
tick 1888 (=1251+637, remaining value on this ignite is 1252+637 = 1889)
crit 6498 --> 2599 (1299/1300) add remaining 1889/2 = 944.5 to each tick
tick 2244 (1299 + 945)
tick 2244 (1300 + 944)

total crit damage 19122
total Ignite damage 7649
19122*0.4 = 7649

If these crits hadn't occurred in sequence, you'd have seen six ticks of 1273, 1274, 1251, 1252, 1299, and 1300, which also sum to 7649. These crits are doing no more damage than if you'd crit them widely spaced.

The point that's seriously causing confusion: just because the last two ticks do identical damage does not mean Ignite is stacking. You take what's left on the old ignite, damage that you would have gotten anyway if you hadn't crit again, and you add it to the new ignite, which is also damage that would have occurred whether there was a crit before or not, and that is the new tick, which is nothing more than the sum of damage that would have happened no matter what.

The only actual anomalous Ignite data posted is Searix's and that's because he landed two crits before the ignite from the first crit ticked, which seems to do weird things with the Ignite formula when it's trying to combine a two-tick Ignite with another two-tick Ignite (as opposed to the more usual case of a one-tick Ignite with a two-tick Ignite).

 

WiPe|Domin

For fights at t6 gear lvl when most bosses take 3-5min this build would be superior, the longer the fight prolongs the worse it gets.

 

Hate Monkey

When the damage for Ignites is done in less ticks than normal, that means there is stacking going on. 5 ticks of ignite instead of 6. But yea, I was trying to get to what Searix posted, but I wasn't able to see it in the log, but I know it exists somewhere.

 

JasonX

In Searix's case, he managed to get ignites which deal more than 40% of his crit damage. In your case, your total ignite damage is exactly 40% of your crit damage. Searix's case was a special one, because he somehow managed to "roll" his ignites to deal more damage. I really don't see what your combatlog is trying to imply other than evidence that ignite is working normally, Hate Monkey.

 

Searix

Hatemonkey: The difference between what you did and what i did to get the "beneficial" damage is my crits happened RIGHT on par with the ignite ticks (Well, close enough, i popped all my haste items and had 2.08 cast fireballs).
Let me grab another parse and edit for clarity.


Edited out most everything not pertaining, off the PTR

11/28 03:56:19.046 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 3122 Fire damage.
11/28 03:56:19.858 Dr. Boom is afflicted by Ignite.
11/28 03:56:21.390 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 3012 Fire damage.
11/28 03:56:21.593 Dr. Boom suffers 624 Fire damage from your Ignite.
11/28 03:56:21.796 You gain Combustion (2).
11/28 03:56:23.202 Dr. Boom suffers 24 Fire damage from your Fireball.
11/28 03:56:23.796 Dr. Boom suffers 1227 Fire damage from your Ignite.
11/28 03:56:23.796 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1969 Fire damage.
11/28 03:56:24.593 You fail to cast Fireball: Another action is in progress.
11/28 03:56:24.608 You gain Combustion (3).
11/28 03:56:25.593 Dr. Boom suffers 1226 Fire damage from your Ignite.
11/28 03:56:25.905 Ignite fades from Dr. Boom.

Results: Bonus ignite damage (50% ignite damage total). Was surprised at how much leeway it gave me.

 

Hate Monkey

I know exactly what you're talking about, I've seen it happen before. I've been unable to reproduce it to the extent that I need though. That's one of the things that gave me the number for crit being a higher value with IV next patch. It's much easier to understand when you're a Troll and you get a 30% Berserking off with Bloodlust as your casts aproach the 2s cast easy, then adding in one other haste buff provides enough to push the cast faster than Ignite ticks, which produce the true rolling effect, causing a much greater gain in dps. Like I said earlier, I cannot get a decent amount of PTR testing till Thursday, in which I'll have a shaman or two to help me produce this situation on demand easier, and show that the better your passive crit rate, the better gain crit is overall.

Since berserking only lasts 10 seconds, I'll be doing 2 different tests, one with 10% berserking, and one with 30% berserking.

But it still stands, that with the way Ignites stack now, you effectively do your damage in 1 less tick that normal on each chain of crits, which still stand as a dps gain over seperated ignite ticks. Do you guys agree with that statement?

EDIT: To find out what kind of leeway we have with Fireball crits and getting that true stacking ignite to happen, we need to test a 2.3-2.4s FB as your log shows a .4s delay on when the first Ignite tick happens from when it should happen.

And that may be why I've been having that in my head the whole time as a Troll with Berserking, I can reach those haste levels easier to get that cast time. I'll dig through my parse later and see if I can find any data that matches your results.

 

epiphenom

Not at all. Your statement is true only if you confine the window over which you calculate your DPS to the crit chain itself.

Crit-Crit-Crit-Hit-Hit-Hit is no more DPS than Crit-Hit-Crit-Hit-Crit-Hit. During the Crit-Crit-Crit portion of the chain, it certainly has more DPS than the Crit-Hit-Crit portion of the other chain, but it only makes sense, since it has one more crit.

For any assumption of identical crit rates (in other words, taking as your example two sets of casts which contain an identical number of hits and crits), it does not matter in the least whether they are chained or separate if Ignite is functioning correctly.

 

Pintofbrew

Yes Hate Monkey, several posters have indicated current ignite working by virtue of compacting current and new ignites into fewer tics. It is not however, a DPS gain. What it is, is a DPS loss. Assume following scenario:

0.00 Crit 1
0.02 Ignite 1, 1/2
0.03 Crit 2
(0.04 Ignite 1, 2/2 would happen here but doesn't)
0.05 Ignite 2, 1/2 (with added 0.5*Ignite 1, 2/2 that was remaining)
0.07 Ignite 2, 2/2 + 0.5*Ignite 1, 2/2

Total time remains 7sec, Total damage remains same, the fact that the Ignite is bigger at a later time than it should have been dealt does nothing to it's DPS.

By delaying damage dealing and in stead getting the same damage later you are not increasing DPS at all, rather for the case of *mob dies, remaining (multi-stacked) ignite is dropped* you are in fact losing DPS compared to non-stacking ignites.

Edit: Beaten to it.

 

Cardynal

Ignites look unchanged on the PTR for me. I was able to get a few to roll by landing a spell right before the ignite tick. What is happening here from what I understand is the damage has already taken place on the server side by the time your crit lands...so the ignite ticks. However it seems that it is calculating the damage for the next ignite tick as if the tick that happens .2 seconds after didn't. Therefore the damage is added up for the next 2 ignite ticks...but you still have that "free" tick that just went off.

It could also be an issue with the damage being calculated when the cast is completed for the fireball, but before it lands. I'm not sure at what point the damage for ignite is calculated.


It's not really rolling...just an issue of calculating with race conditions.

 

Rouncer

Are you using Quartz or any other latency indicator mod?

The cast will go off at 1.25sec but you will be unable to start another cast till the GCD completes which is 1.5sec.

Just like what happens if you were to cast rank 1 Frostbolt with 5/5 Improved Frostbolt. The cast completes at 1 second but you can't start another cast till the GCD completes.

 

Vannik

To people who think rolling ignites are in again: the numbers people are posting don't really prove it. Maybe you forget how the rolling ignite works? If you really want proof, you could bring 5 mages to boom and scorch spam him and see if you can hit 20k ignites

 

Cardynal

They are talking about self or owner only rolling ignites. The rolling ignite that every mage could refresh has not been brought up since this is impossible to do with seperate ignite debuffs.

The reason this is being discussed right now is that fireball is reaching near 2 seconds in some cases with IV, Skull and haste gear...which seems to be bugging out the ignite mechanic at times when used in conjunction with combustion.

 

Qbert

Ignites work the way they have since...2.0? Which is to say they don't work as they should but they work more fairly than they were.

"Stacking Ignites" is nothing more than delaying your earlier crit(s) ignite damage. It is a simple coding work-around that is 'close enough' to the tooltip definition because the programmers can't quite figure out how to get it to work the way it should ("Rolling Ignites" is just a different work-around they tried that turned out to be exploitable). Even though Ignite doesn't work as the tooltip states and consecutive crits backloads dmg/dps, there's just no point arguing it any further because a) it has been argued to death for over a year now, b) the result is pretty close to the definition and as close as the programmers have come, and c) while it is a slightly unfair disadvantage to mages it is precisely that; a slight issue whereas there are many many more important things to occupy developers' and programmers' time.

I don't like it any more than the next mage, but there comes a time where enough is enough and you simply accept the bug as an alternative to torturing complaints about it.

 

ebbv

Qbert calling the nerf to our DPS when going from rolling Ignites to the current form is a gross understatement. The current functionality of Ignite makes chain crits COST us DPS. That is not a SLIGHT problem. Especially when compared to Improved Shadowbolt. I'd dare say it's the biggest problem facing PvE mages right now, besides the Curse of Elements problem.