kycan

Unless the fight ends before your ignites get to tick, this "dps loss" is completely irrelevant. Your total damage is exactly the same, in either case.

 

Qbert

I never mentioned anything about a DPS loss because there isn't one unless you're complaining about things dying before your ignites finish. There is no DPS loss theres only a DPS shift. The current ignite mechanics cause chained crits to backload the DPS. This is primarily a PvP issue when a player lives for the extra 2 seconds until the next ignite tick whereas in a perfect world where ignite works as the tooltip states, the first tick would have kill the player ... then that player does something within the 2 seconds that could change an outcome. The other issue being delayed ignite damage giving more time to dispel earlier ignite damage.

I know it's not a good thing or I wouldn't have pointed out the problems, but the number of times that the mechanics make a significant impact are so few and far between that you have no choice but to lump it into the same category as blink... and we all know how those discussions go.

 

ebbv

This happens more than you might think. Especially for people like me who like to blow Combustion and other timers in the last 20% after Bloodlust is hit on boss fights, and far more on Trash.

Yes on a boss fight all the DPS is just shifted until the end when it may be lost. But on trash and adds it happens a lot more.

But what I was talking about (and this is addressed to both of you), is the DPS *LOSS* going from the old way where they rolled to the new way where it doesn't.

 

Vhad

I realize this is hardly TC, very anecdoctal and maybe not very impressive, but I thought I'd share anyway. Really annoyed I didn't get WWS tonight, but forgot after I logged out before Rage since I was passing for someone to get exalted, so you'll have to do with Recount information. I was able to beat some personal records on Anetheron Kaz'rogal and Naj'entus, as arcane frost. I had CoE, Heroism from resto shaman and WC by another mage.

Anetheron


Kaz'rogal


Naj'entus now with Exalted MH ring.




Can't wait for IV to get in that picture, may even be able to compete with stupid destro spec :>

What!?

 

◊ manly

Hmm our destro locks get 2.1-2.2k consistently. Good luck.
EDIT: without elemental shaman. or COA/COD.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Vhad

Yeah, I know, but it'll be closer atleast, somewhat

Edit: When you say consistently, do you mean every single boss? or consistently on those 3 I linked to?

What!?

 

marloz

You talk warmly about your destro warlocks' dps, but I can't seem to find any statistics of them reaching your, quote; 'consistent 2.1-2.2k dps'.

Take your most recent raid (Loading...) for example; none of your warlocks passed ~1900dps on any of the fights, excluding Shade of Akama and Essence of Anger for obvious reasons.

The one fight I found where one of your warlocks actually had 2161dps was on Rage Winterchill - (Loading...) although he was blessed with Drums of Battle and Bloodlust - and higher crit% (44% vs. 32%) than on avreage. On the remaning fights none of your warlocks exceeded ~1850dps.

 

JasonX

Thats the problem with warlock vs mage. A well geared warlock can consistently do 10% to 20% more DPS than an equally geared mage, even if both players are doing similar roles and has similar skills. Lets look at the various advantages that warlock has.

1) Imp shadowbolt raises DPS significantly, and can be kept up rather easily.
2) Soul shatter is instant cast, thus resulting in very little downtime compared to Invisibility (if there is even a need to use)
3) Shadowbolt has all its damage frontloaded, so it is less likely to lose DPS as compared to a mechanic like ignite.
4) Shadowbolt scales better than all nukes that a mage has (except arcane blast, which is non sustainable).
5) T6 bonus boost warlock more than mage.
6) Shadowbolt is 2.5 second cast time, thus warlock tend to suffer less(compared to fire mage) when the raid boss requires lots of movement. Frostbolt doesn't deal comparable DPS, so even though frostbolt is 2.5 seconds, it can't compete.
7) No downtime spent on keeping a debuff like scorch up. Winterchill and Imp shadowbolt are better in this aspect, but Imp shadow provides a much higher DPS boost than winterchill.
8) If a warlock is free to apply CoD, his dps will be even higher.
9) Curse priority is usually given to CoS (this point is invalid if CoE is kept up).

Until blizzard starts to test things more thoroughly, mage dps will never catch up to a warlock.

 

spiderella

On a lot of fights a mage can pop invis and immediately start casting a bolt when GCD is up. Invis drops 20% threat per second over five seconds; gcd plus frostbolt is 4 sec, gcd plus fireball is 4.5 sec, so either of these guarantees 80% threat drop using only a GCD much like soul shatter. It's also possible (and repeatable w/ practice) to time it just so the bolt goes off as invis hits as well.

 

Dryssa

This is wrong on three counts. First, Invisibility drops 10% threat each second, not 20%. Second, it drops 10% of your current threat at that tick, not your threat when you first cast Invisibility, so you'll have 100%*(.9^4)=65.51% of your original threat after 4 seconds, not 60%.

Most importantly though, is that Invis is canceled when you begin casting another spell, not when you finish (this is contrary to how it initially functioned when BC was released). Thus if you cast Invis, then begin casting a Fireball when the GCD is up, Invis will be dispelled and you'll only have lost 10% of your threat. In order for a full threat dump you must do nothing (except move) and be hit by nothing for a full 5 seconds.

 

Frenzi

Invis stops working the instant you begin a new cast so you would drop 20% threat using it how you suggest. If I ever have to use it I tend to break it by beginning a cast at around the 20% mark so I don't have to click the buff off and re target the mob.

 

Frenzi

No it does drop 20% per tick.

 

terjekv

Unless you have a shadow priest, there is a non-trivial amount of GCDs lost to life tap. Even with endgame gear, the number of shadowbolts you get for one life tap isn't exactly stellar. :-/

 

frosty

The problem with mage vs warlock raid-dps comes down to Shadow Weaving imo. The 10% is pretty much the gap between a destro-warlock not on CoE/CoS/CoR-duty and a Firemage with Icy Veins, and it won't disappear unless Shadow Weaving is removed or restricted to SPriests, or Mages get a similar outside buff.

 

Roywyn

Dryssa is correct about how it works, at least according to the last full thottbot/wowhead spell description.
You lose ~35% threat in the first 4 ticks, and on the 5th tick you become invisible and drop all threat.

Odd enough, the spell mechanic is currently "unknown" on wowhead/thottbot, and Invisibility is listed with a 6 second duration. Maybe it's changed, in that case back up your claims please.

Invisibility - Spells - World of Warcraft
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Invisibility


Edit:
The spell description has been something like "Apply Aura periodic, every second: Reduce threat by 10%" for the 5 second duration. It's been that way for a few months until it disappeared for whichever reason.

 

Pintofbrew

Given the context is 2k DPS it's safe to assume the groups are optimized for performance. Not getting stellar bolts-per-tap belies that you have one of the only two abilities in game that scale mana regen per gear (along with sp). The whole problem is the huge excessive synergy between lock/sp. Using life to supply mana and being replenished on both, you both buff each other by 15% and 10/20% respectively and the more damage either of you deal the more you both are sustainable from life AND mana perspective. Sure, SPs get 15% more immunity to aoe and environmental damage effects, but what the hell, with 20% more heal intake I'm sure you don't really mind.

For the purposes of game balance, you can assume reliance on SP to remove your need to Tap as a given in raid environments. Let's put it this way: If your raid is in a position to output 2k DPS, it's clear there will be at least one SP in the raid and his group will be all the destro locks. Mages get seccond dibs as far as I've seen.

 

Frenzi

Whenever I use it I watch my threatmeter to give the best time of when to break it as becoming completely invisible is annoying as you have to remove the buff and retarget your mob. There is no way my threat has only been dropping in 10% increments and at its initial implementation it was stated at 20%. Unless they have changed the mechanics it is still 20%. Considering I have reduced my threat by atleast 80% virtually everytime I have used it then it is still working as intended.

 

Voley

I don't agree with your points, at all. Explanation:

1. It is often eaten by shadowpriests most of the time, so you cant keep it up even 50% of time.
2. Soul shatter is not complete aggro wipe. Soul shatter is subject to resists. That doesnt happen much, but it can.
3. Yes so what? ignite is pretty stable nowadays even with 2 crits in same time. Don't see the point.
4. What do you mean by scaling? Shadowbolt is getting 103% scaling from gear. Fireball is getting 115%.
5. Just no. Warlocks have to cast curses, and lifetap for a pretty much amount of time. It's all balanced.
6. 0.5 seconds do not really matter anywhere in the game.
7. As I already said, mages dont need to lifetap. Warlocks do. And scorch can be kept by only 1 mage doing 8 fireballs 1 scorch rotation. Rest could just spam fireball.
8. How many warlocks do you got in raid? We usually 2. 1 coe 1 cos.

Also if you compete winter chill and frost spec (inferior damage spec), compete it with affliction or demo locks. Why do you even try to compete frost spec with the destro spec? Also you must consider that in any serious raid you will have at least 1 affliction warlock, for the damage reduction thing. And that spec is not capable of doing any decent damage. Also it is less useful to put shaman into warlock group, as they hardly got use of mana tide, and mages need shaman.

Twice Scarab Lord.
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/5237/sigyt7.jpg

 

Sancus

I dunno what threatmeter you use, but I just looked at Omen's code for it, which is likely copied from KTM, and it does a 10% reduction each tick:

local invisModifiers = {90/100, 80/90, 70/80, 60/70, 0}

So, I'm pretty sure you're just mistaken about your visual reading of your threat meter unless you use something other than Omen/KTM(is there even such a thing?).

Besides that, stating what your threat meter does is not backing up your claims - threat meters are entirely theorycrafted addons coded by players, so even if you were correct, your threat meter might just be wrong.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Voley

They never stated that it drops in 20% per sec. Ever. It has never been that way either. If it was, you could lose aggro after 2 seconds if you overaggroed. But you still keep aggro even after 4 seconds with current invis and the invis that was in january.

Twice Scarab Lord.
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/5237/sigyt7.jpg

 

frosty

1. 50% Uptime is still a 10% dmg-boost.
2. You hardly ever need a full aggro wipe. The 50% wipe is good enough. A mage however needs to be out of combat for 4-5 sec for a comperable aggro wipe instead of just losing 1.5sec due to GCD.
3. On trash or when killing small spawns during bossfights only the burst-dmg really helps, and the ignite often just wont tick b/c the mobs are dead. Having the Ignite-Bonus added to the frontloaded dmg would obviously help killing those mobs faster.
4. Better scaling for warlocks means that warlocks dps increase more than mages dps when both classes gain better gear i.e. more +dmg. It's a result of more multiplier-boni warlocks have: 15% DS, 10% Shadow Weaving, 10% Imp Shadowbolt (considering 50% uptime), 6% T6 Bonus and 20% Shadow and Flame compared to 15% Imp Scorch, 3% Playing with Fire, 10% Firepower, 5% T6 Bonus and 15% Emp. Fireball.
5. Well, one Curse every 1 (CoD) or 5 Minutes (CoE/CoS/CoR). Also have in mind that Mages have 10sec downtime for Evocation, enough time to do 6-7 Lifetaps which also gives more mana.
6. Not if you don't care about min-maxing i guess ...
7. Would still be better if no one needed to cast scorches. But i guess it's indeed only a minor issue.
8. A warlock that would be replacing a mage won't have to keep up CoE/CoS/CoR neither than having an imp out ... the mage wasn't doing anything of this too. If you kick a mage from the raid and get a Destro-Warlock into the same group, having a SPriest and maybe even a Shaman, he will be doing sth like 10-15% more dps by doing exactly the same thing as the mage has done before: hitting mostly a single button repeatedly for the duration of the fight. There will just be additional Shadowbolts flying around instead of some fiery balls.

 

Sancus

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how scaling in the game works. You are completely ignoring the effect of Shadow damage's superior multipliers.

Curse of Recklessness is superior to CoE

Actual dps outputted indicates that it isn't.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Cardynal

I would agree...I've never seen destro locks as high as you say they get manly on any of the webstats i've looked at. I don't know that I'd even count Rage since you get the spirit buff that gives you a nice dmg buff with imp spirit on.

 

kadgar

The original invis had 8 sec duration.
It reduced aggro by 12,5% per sec (8*12,5=100%). (Well at least that's like it looked like in ktm at that time)
When they changed the duration to 5 sec, they didn't adjust the aggro-loss/sec and it stayed 12,5% (or 10%) per second for the first 5 seconds.

 

Aldric

Here's our webstats for the last two weeks on the standard dps test fights (Teron, Rage) sans rage for this week, we'll hit Hyjal on Saturday

Teron
Teron
Rage

And the fun part... he doesn't even have 4 piece T6, so take those numbers and make them 6% bigger. 3800 average HITS for a 2.5 second cast just isn't right.