And the fun part... he doesn't even have 4 piece T6, so take those numbers and make them 6% bigger. 3800 average HITS for a 2.5 second cast just isn't right.
What is his actual crit chance? He has 37% on 2 fights and 42% on another...That's pretty high for a desto lock. The armory won't load him for me.
To talk about something different than Warlocks in a Mage thread: (that is lets talk about Shamans !)
It has become current practice in our raid to give all Heroism to the melee group.
Our single melee group typically consists of 2 rogues, an enhancement shaman, a feral and one rogue/warrior/hunter. The other 1-2 shamans are typically spread over the three remaining caster groups. The Enhancement shaman pops Heroism at some point, and when its over someone has the task to switch another shaman into the melee group, pop heroism and switch back. We have implemented this behaviour because our consensus that rogues and warriors scale better with haste than casters. Of course I can combine my cooldowns with heroism, but it was our understanding that rogues get more out of it, because of offhand energy proccs for rogues and warriors due to increased rage generation. Without heroism use our DD's perform quite balanced.
Now the question that I ask is neither if this practice is fair, nor if it is necessary, but weather I have overlooked something. Many posts in this thread imply that you get to keep your shaman and his heroism/bloodlust, so I am wondering if you would argue that we can make a similar raid benefiting usage of it.?
Mages and desto locks actually benefit more from Heroism. A Sword spec rogue with WF does about 70% white damage and 30% yellow dmg. This means that heroism will only imporve 70% of the dps he does. A mage spamming fireball with another mage keeping up scorch for him (which is how my guild does it) will have 100% of his dps benefit from the heroism. If you save BL for the last 22% or so....You'll see an even bigger increase of benefit for fire mages.
We simply have the shaman's use BL in the groups they're in if they're in a dps group.
because our consensus that rogues and warriors scale better with haste than casters.
I would definitely question whether this is true. Haste only affects autoattacks, and yes, there are procs and things like combat potency, but many of those procs reduce in frequency as you are hasted, and even if they didn't, I find it very hard to believe that if, say, autoattacks are 60% of your damage, that those procs make up for the fact that haste has no effect on the other 40% of your damage.
So, everything else equal, I'd say haste actually benefits mages and destro locks more than rogues or warriors. However, everything is rarely equal, and if you have something like warglaive rogues vs mages, it might still be a good choice, whereas if you had non-warglaive rogues vs max-geared 2100+ dps destro locks, hasting them is probably a better use of it.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
Obviously Heroism/Bloodlust should be prioritized to whichever DPS group puts out the most damage, as that is what will make the best use of it. That will probably be the Rogue group. This is a bit outside the scope of this thread in any case.
Anybody else notice that the promised change of refreshing duration data for all participants of a stack didn't happen? In other words, we still can't see the duration of Fire Vulnerability unless we're the owner of the stack? That's a bummer.
Obviously Heroism/Bloodlust should be prioritized to whichever DPS group puts out the most damage, as that is what will make the best use of it. That will probably be the Rogue group. This is a bit outside the scope of this thread in any case.
Anybody else notice that the promised change of refreshing duration data for all participants of a stack didn't happen? In other words, we still can't see the duration of Fire Vulnerability unless we're the owner of the stack? That's a bummer.
I have noticed that sometimes my scorch timer will reset when I'm not the owner of the stack and sometimes it will just go away. I use the Quartz target debuff bars. Also you can download Scorchio! from files.wowace.com and it works quite nicely for just this.
What is his actual crit chance? He has 37% on 2 fights and 42% on another...That's pretty high for a desto lock. The armory won't load him for me.
It's right around 37% in our raid buffed group, keep in mind that we keep up the pally crit debuff as well as have an elemental shaman in our group. This allows him to shed hit in favor of crit where a T6 mage really can't even shed hit gear just because of how our sets are itemized. In this situation mages don't have a usable hit advantage over destro warlocks while only having 1% more crit from talents and 3% from buffs. This relates pretty directly to our usual crit rates, mine around 42, his around 37.
He's getting CoS and you're not getting CoE. Is his CoS from the other warlock? I notice he is affliction...meaning he could have maladiction...giving him another 3% dmg.
Your elemental shaman is putting out some rather low numbers. It's possible that it's his gear. But if he is why your destro lock can do the damage he does...you'd actually have higher raid dps running a resto shaman, putting up CoE, and replacing a different healer with another mage or lock.
Your entire guild won't load for me for some reason on the armory....what did you do!!!!
thank you, I think we will somewhat playtest which groups can have a bigger impact^^
one other thing:
I just checked back on the test realm, and there is a major difference with mana gems than before, which i think nobody mentioned so far (correct me if I am wrong).
To recap Conjure mana Emerald does the following:
PTR: Costs 1670 mana 3 seconds cast 3 charges and restores 2250->3750 Mana,
Live: Costs 1670 mana 3 seconds cast 1 charge and restores 1420->1705Mana,
on live my net gain is (1705 + 1420)/2 -1670 = -107.5
on ptr I actually get mana (2250 + 3750) /2) - 1670 = 1330
This is with a single use; with all three uses together it is a 7300 mana gain,
What does this mean?
a) If you are really desperate for mana you can actually get mana by conjuring a gem, in contrast to previous behaviour.
b) Is it more mana efficient to recast emerald after 3 uses to use 6 emeralds than to use 3 emeralds, ruby citrine, jade?
To answer b) what are the median values for the other gems?
ruby: 1375
citrine: 1062.5
jade: 750
sum: 3187.5
That is 4112.5 extra mana that you gain provided the fight that lasts about 11 minutes (10 minutes for cooldowns, and you want to spend mana in the beginning and after you use the last one). The number is smaller for shorter fights but still positive... if you find a spot at about 5 minutes into the fight where you can cast for 3 seconds without losing dps time it won't cost you anything.
Edit: the numbers are off, I was wearing Serpent-Coil Braid, concept stays the same though.
Most importantly though, is that Invis is canceled when you begin casting another spell, not when you finish (this is contrary to how it initially functioned when BC was released). Thus if you cast Invis, then begin casting a Fireball when the GCD is up, Invis will be dispelled and you'll only have lost 10% of your threat. In order for a full threat dump you must do nothing (except move) and be hit by nothing for a full 5 seconds.
I never noticed this change o.0. When did this happen?
He's getting CoS and you're not getting CoE. Is his CoS from the other warlock? I notice he is affliction...meaning he could have maladiction...giving him another 3% dmg.
Your elemental shaman is putting out some rather low numbers. It's possible that it's his gear. But if he is why your destro lock can do the damage he does...you'd actually have higher raid dps running a resto shaman, putting up CoE, and replacing a different healer with another mage or lock.
Your entire guild won't load for me for some reason on the armory....what did you do!!!!
Yurifel, the destro lock, is most certainly not afflication. Fedora is though and does run 13% CoS for all our raids, so I guess there is that. However, it's fairly standard practice to have 1 affliction + remaining destro, so 13% CoS isn't anything special. As to CoE I'm pretty sure that I did have it for the one of those WWS's that I was in for.
Yeah, Nayto's dps could be higher, he is fairly new though, we've been doing some roster expansion in preparation for Sunwell, so his gear is on the lower side.
Whenever I use it I watch my threatmeter to give the best time of when to break it as becoming completely invisible is annoying as you have to remove the buff and retarget your mob. There is no way my threat has only been dropping in 10% increments and at its initial implementation it was stated at 20%. Unless they have changed the mechanics it is still 20%. Considering I have reduced my threat by atleast 80% virtually everytime I have used it then it is still working as intended.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how threat reduction mechanics works. Threat reduction is not additive, it's multiplicative. Pre-TBC, threat modification was additive, which Blizzard realized was a bad idea due to people using [Fetish of the Sand Reaver] to reduce threat to zero. The mage community falsely assumed invisibility was a 20% reduction per second due to a blue stating the spell reduced aggro evenly. Bronx from the WoW mage forum explained the mechanics of invis here.
a) If you are really desperate for mana you can actually get mana by conjuring a gem, in contrast to previous behaviour.
b) Is it more mana efficient to recast emerald after 3 uses to use 6 emeralds than to use 3 emeralds, ruby citrine, jade?
From our guild forums:
Resummon and continue using emeralds:
4th Gem - 2400-1670 = 730
5th Gem - 2400*2-1670 = 2130
6th Gem - 2400*3-1670 = 4530
No Resummon continue down the gem line:
4th Gem - 1100 = 1100
5th Gem - 1100+850 = 1950
6th Gem - 1100+850+600 = 2550
And with the Braid:
Resummon and continue using emeralds:
4th Gem - 2400*1.25-1670 = 1330
5th Gem - 2400*2*1.25-1670 = 4330
6th Gem - 2400*3*1.25-1670 = 7330
No Resummon continue down the gem line with Braid:
4th Gem - (1100)*1.25 = 1375
5th Gem - (1100+850)*1.25 = 2437.5
6th Gem - (1100+850+600)*1.25 = 3187.5
So, for both cases, you'll see better returns after 2 gems. But it will be just barely if you aren't using the Braid.
The Braid makes this tactic highly useful, netting you 2000 mana on average if a fight goes to 5 gems.
My conclusions from this would be:
1) If it's a 4 gem fight, do not resummon, braid or not.
2) If it's a 5 gem fight and you're using the braid, resummon.
3) If it's a 5 gem fight and you're not using the braid, do not resummon.
4) If there's a good chance for it to be a 6 gem fight, resummon, braid or not.
I was refering to the other warlock when I said he was affliction.
I'd like to see the destro lock's dps when he doesn't have a ret paladin or an elemental shaman.
CoE was up for 1 of 3 of those WWS's. Just so happens to be the one you're in.
The Rage kill he was actually in without an elemental shaman. Still had the SoC buff up, it only takes 8 points in ret so a well coordinated healing pally core can cover it fairly easily, plus your melee get's improved might. I'll hunt around for a fight where he had neither.
In any case I think we've covered that the 2k destro warlock isn't an oddity. It doesn't even take the best of the best gear to do.
Until a few months ago, I used to raid with an arcane / frost spec (40/0/21). Then I respeced deep frost, mainly for PvP reasons, but to my amazement my raid dps went up from my previous spec.
It was our 3rd kill I believe, but the logs are similar day to day in SSC and TK raids, and even 10 man runs like ZA, I always end up in the top 3. My gear is pretty average SSC/TK equip and I'm out dpsing similarly geared fire/arcane mages as well as the random rogue, lock and shaman. Now that 2.3 is here, it shines even more.
I'm not actually quite sure why this spec produces a higher DPS than say an arcane or fire spec. Reading these threads it seems fire is the recognized better spec. One thing I'm thinking is the fact that frostbolt has no partial. If you look at the miss% it's always between 1% and 2%, which means every other cast is a full hit. Plus with all the frost talents, with a 21% unbuffed crit, plus 3% from molten armor, I end up at around 40% effective crit. Also while it's true the elemental doesn't always live his full duration because of AEs and such, at the end of the night it always ends up being about 9-11% of my DPS, and has the advantage of splitting threat, so I can open up on the mobs sooner than some other classes without pulling agro.
Anyone else raiding as deep frost and finding it kicks ass? Here's my spec:
and even 10 man runs like ZA, I always end up in the top 3.
Since there is generally only 4-6 true dps classes in a 5 man, that's a weak stat and completely relative to the other dps there. If you are hitting top 3 in a 25 man raid, then it's impressive.
Frost is close to fire, and will beat it on certain encounters, but your dps went up because arcane/frost is a weaker spec then deep fire or deep frost. Any mage going arcane now is behind the times, even with 2pc T5. It's effectively equal to deep fire, but harder to play. I wouldn't brag about beating him. If the fire mage in your guild has the same gear as you, and is doing less dps on bosses (fire is a little weak on trash compared to deep frost), then he's a subpar player to you. Your theoretical dps ceiling is lower, but you are getting closer to it then he is to his.
Yeah basically always top 3 means always, unless I die early. Usually it's 1st place.
As for my previous arcane/frost spec I still used just frostbolts, not arcane spells. The difference was talents increased overall crit% and +dmg, instead of the frost talents which are only frost, and often only frostbolt specific. I don't know about other players being sub-par, I think deep frost is just very underestimated, when played well it can out dps most classes with equal gear. Obviously I'm not in BT yet so maybe with higher gear, haste, etc it may change.
Pamine coming into this thread and making sweeping statements like:
I think deep frost is just very underestimated, when played well it can out dps most classes with equal gear.
Is really not helpful. If you care to read the thread the math has been done to death, and many of us regularly respec and try out other specs besides Deep Fire on farm runs like SSC and TK to see what we can do with them.
Please understand that when it's said that Deep Fire out damages Deep Frost this is not to say all Fire mages will outdps all Frost mages. This is saying that the theoretical cap is higher in most scenarios, and that means that playing optimally, Fire will come out ahead. So yes, your experience may vary, but nobody is underestimating Deep Frost. The math has been done, please take the time to read all the information available to you on this forum.
Last edited by ebbv : 11/29/07 at 7:29 PM.
Reason: Slight rewording
I read it all ebbv, and I'm not saying that the math is wrong. But what I'm seeing too often is people going with what the math says without thinking about it. Seeing a full thread of people saying if you want to do good DPS in pve you must go fire. All I'm saying is here's an example, here's a case of a deep frost mage doing quite fine in pve. Not only that, but out dpsing other mages and all other classes on a consistent basis on T5 content. I do think many people (maybe not the ones who did the math in this thread but some of the thousands of casual browsers) are underestimating frost, and I'm just showing proof of it. Some cold talk amongst 65 pages of mostly hot stuff ;P
But what I'm seeing too often is people going with what the math says without thinking about it. Seeing a full thread of people saying if you want to do good DPS in pve you must go fire.
That's really not what the thread is about. It's people going fire BECAUSE of the math. There have been tests done to show how deep frost compares to deep fire, and people that want to do it, will (like always). The reason it's not being discussed as much as fire is, is because this is theorycrafting, people are doing everything they can to min-max and right now, mathematically, fire does better than frost.
I read it all ebbv, and I'm not saying that the math is wrong. But what I'm seeing too often is people going with what the math says without thinking about it. Seeing a full thread of people saying if you want to do good DPS in pve you must go fire. All I'm saying is here's an example, here's a case of a deep frost mage doing quite fine in pve. Not only that, but out dpsing other mages and all other classes on a consistent basis on T5 content. I do think many people (maybe not the ones who did the math in this thread but some of the thousands of casual browsers) are underestimating frost, and I'm just showing proof of it. Some cold talk amongst 65 pages of mostly hot stuff ;P
Except by our standards you did not do well, your damage output is not impressive. Your WWS show Kael and Vashj, neither of which is great for judging maximum damage output. There's a bit of sitting around on both of them, and a lot of target switching. But even so, I can see your average frostbolt was 2k. That's only 800 DPS. So coming into this thread and telling us you have found the light and the way because you're #1 in your guild as deep frost doing 800 DPS Frostbolts is not going to surprise anyone or revolutionize anything. What you were told before is true, you're #1 because your competition is worse than you, period.
Your parses show you at about 1000 dps on vashj/kael. Sorry, but that's not even remotely impressive. I was doing 1100-1200 dps on vashj/kael as Fire, before I had T6 or any bt/hyjal gear really.
These days on actual dps fights I doo 1600-1800dps. So you're going to need a lot more than ~1000dps parses on bad dps comparison fights to show anything of use, man.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
11/29/07, 11:46 AM
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