Hate Monkey

The cutoff line when a 2-3 Fireball/Fireblast rotation is no longer viable has not been definitely found yet, but I assume it's somewhere in there T5 level of gear, if not before.

 

Grecasi

Very short fights it's fine (though the dps gain is questionable at best, 1-3%), but at lower levels then t5 you'll have mana issues well if you plan on trying it on a bossfight. For general bossfights it's impossible to get anything good from it in reality.

 

Pintofbrew

Though I question the value of posting on WoW forums, given we're very near the point Blizz announced the "tell us what you want fixed for WOTLC" I'd quite love to post. Unfortunately, I'm on EU and as such I won't be able to.

As for fireblast, hate monkey is about right, but there is no conclusive evidence to back it, mainly because the way the server handles instants is not well understood in the current incarnation of Live.

Edit: Dog's Trousers man, what a shitty thread... Every time I venture onto WoW forums I come back with a sinking feeling of dread. "Arcaen scalez bett0r weeth +dmg". Next post: "LoL ur armory u hav +700, u so nub". Reply "ZOMG STUP1D PvP GEER". Ad nauseum.

May I advise steering clear of the official forums, unless you want to literally whip your staff out and duel the other children in the playground.

 

Vannik

What I concluded is that if you have any haste gear, the 2fireball/fireblast will get clipped on both ends by the cooldowns. I'd use the fireballx3/fireblast if the fight didn't require me to use any pot timers. The DPS gains from consumables you lose if you have to gem/mana pot makes the fireblast a waste. And as your haste increases the viability of fireblast drops. This is all still speculation though. You also gain the ability to save fireblast for when you have to move, which is nice as well.

I wouldn't say it's based on a certain tier level of gear though, I'd say it's more coorelated on the +haste gear you have equipped!

 

Pintofbrew

I think we concluded that ball/blast rotations needed to be investigated further before they were officially endorsed by EJ. Discretion on how exactly instants were queued compared to channeleds WRT the new lag-handling mechanics are making establishment of said tests hard.

Even so, I'd advise against running comprehensive tests before Blizz decides on how exactly they're going to make information-handling work correctly. It seems to me every couple of weeks there's a slight tweak. Multiple micro-tweaks is the new fad it seems. One need not look past the flurry of tweaks Hemorrhage has received in the last weeks.

 

Etherealz

OK - So I finally got on a reasonably stable ptr to confirm that spamming keys (with g15) is viable in 2.3.2.

The results below are taken from a 16 ms delay on keystrokes with 0 haste gear equipped.

12/14 23:37:27.468 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1000 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:30.453 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1009 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:33.421 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 999 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:36.484 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1047 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:39.609 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1051 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:42.515 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1017 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:45.609 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1611 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:48.609 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1059 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:51.609 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1614 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:54.609 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1044 Fire damage.
12/14 23:37:57.718 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1041 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:00.609 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1071 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:03.765 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1076 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:06.656 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1668 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:09.734 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1670 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:12.671 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1076 Fire damage..
12/14 23:38:15.656 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1058 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:18.671 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1600 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:21.734 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1057 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:24.703 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1076 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:27.718 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1046 Fire damage.
12/14 23:38:30.656 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1674 Fire damage.

We see an average delay of 8.95 ms on each fireball - considering the ptr was showing 200 ping for me. I'd say this is pretty good. 0.3% latency is alright in my books.

 

Etherealz

Here's the test results running the same setup as above but with a 3 fireball / 1 fireblast rotation.

12/15 00:45:49.921 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 998 Fire damage.
12/15 00:45:53.015 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 998 Fire damage.
12/15 00:45:55.125 Your Fire Blast hits Dr. Boom for 99 Fire damage.
12/15 00:45:56.109 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1043 Fire damage.
--- 4.497s between fireballs
12/15 00:46:00.406 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1608 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:03.578 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1059 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:05.656 Your Fire Blast crits Dr. Boom for 157 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:06.718 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1565 Fire damage.
--- 4.469s between fireballs
12/15 00:46:11.187 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1612 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:14.125 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1052 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:16.078 Your Fire Blast hits Dr. Boom for 109 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:17.046 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1662 Fire damage.
----4.266s between fireballs
12/15 00:46:21.312 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1049 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:24.515 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1648 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:26.921 Your Fire Blast hits Dr. Boom for 113 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:27.812 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1049 Fire damage.
----4.422s between fireballs
12/15 00:46:32.234 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1029 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:35.296 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1072 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:37.234 Your Fire Blast crits Dr. Boom for 163 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:38.328 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1055 Fire damage.
---- 4.359s between fireballs
12/15 00:46:42.687 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1033 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:45.984 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1623 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:47.984 Your Fire Blast hits Dr. Boom for 107 Fire damage.
12/15 00:46:48.953 Your Fireball crits Dr. Boom for 1626 Fire damage.
---- 4.312s between fireballs
12/15 00:46:53.265 Your Fireball hits Dr. Boom for 1067 Fire damage.

6 complete rotations - expected time 10.5s * 6 = 63s
Actual time taken = 63.344s
latency = 0.54%
Slightly higher than my fireball spamming - but certainly not high enough variance to suggest that fireblast is adding your ping worth of latency as it did pre 2.2.

It seems to me that the spamming of the fireblast actually delays the finishing fireball by about 100-200ms, but I'm gaining that 100ms back by the fireball afterwards as you can see by all the intervals being sub 4.5s

Icelance spam test results.

12/15 01:13:47.515 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 344 Frost damage.
12/15 01:13:49.328 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 538 Frost damage.
12/15 01:13:50.515 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 362 Frost damage.
12/15 01:13:52.062 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 361 Frost damage..
12/15 01:13:53.890 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 538 Frost damage.
12/15 01:13:55.125 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 375 Frost damage.
12/15 01:13:56.718 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 358 Frost damage.
12/15 01:13:58.156 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 364 Frost damage.
12/15 01:13:59.828 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 379 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:01.312 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 356 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:02.781 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 360 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:04.328 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 551 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:05.890 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 559 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:07.234 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 366 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:08.765 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 362 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:10.250 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 360 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:11.875 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 568 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:13.468 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 572 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:14.781 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 367 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:16.328 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 365 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:17.937 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 580 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:19.375 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 375 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:21.187 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 357 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:22.406 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 378 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:24.015 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 373 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:25.375 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 355 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:26.890 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 378 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:28.437 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 362 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:29.968 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 361 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:31.437 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 573 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:32.890 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 371 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:34.468 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 557 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:36.015 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 359 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:37.421 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 560 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:38.937 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 363 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:40.156 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 356 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:41.796 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 359 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:43.390 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 376 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:44.843 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 354 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:46.296 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 376 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:47.937 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 370 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:49.546 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 374 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:50.828 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 560 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:52.546 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 365 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:53.828 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 363 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:55.390 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 376 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:56.890 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 376 Frost damage.
12/15 01:14:58.421 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 361 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:00.062 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 381 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:01.468 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 357 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:02.953 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 366 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:04.546 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 560 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:06.109 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 552 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:07.531 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 360 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:08.984 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 373 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:10.703 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 370 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:12.171 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 366 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:13.828 Your Ice Lance hits Dr. Boom for 366 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:15.046 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 554 Frost damage.
12/15 01:15:16.625 Your Ice Lance crits Dr. Boom for 580 Frost damage.

Expected time - 88.5 seconds
Actual time - 89.11seconds.

Average cast time = 1.51s
Latency = 0.69%
Slightly higher latency% but the latency per cast is still sub 10 ms.

 

◊ Acustar

I haven't checked the PTR, but any word on Frostbite not procing from Frostbolts being fixed?

 

Lleauric

I apologize if this has been asked yet.... but.

Quag's Eye vs. Ashtongue Talisman of Insight. Am I missing something here, or is the Quags eye a superior trinket to the ATI?

With both having a 45 second internal cooldown, What is the real difference between 10% chance to proc on all casts and 50% chance to proc on criticals only? (Im no math wiz by any means, but I "think" that person with 30% chance to crit will have about a 15% chance to proc on any cast with the ATI.)

This would make the QE the superior trinket then as it has +37 Spell Damage as the 45 second cooldown makes them both about the same as far as procs over the long term.

Very odd itemization.

Maybe someone better than I with Math can point me in the right direction. Hopefully we can somehow get a buff for the trinket from Blizz if it is shown to be as poor and redundant as it seems to be.

 

Guaicow

Is hit from Elemental Precision still bugged granting 6 hit instead of 3 to frost/binary spells?

 

Vhad

AToI does _not_ have an internal cooldown unless added on PTR.

What!?

 

Eusheka

In 500 Frostbolt casts i had 3 frostbite proc's.

In another 250 Frostbolt casts i had No Judgement of Wisdom proc's.

So its still broken on the EU Ptr at least.

 

Rouncer

No cooldown, was just on the PTR and got it to refresh itself with scorch spam.

 

Searix

Experimenting with a few things on the PTR:

Serpent Braid/Skull are the uber combo, they're on the same cooldown, stack, and they're both godly.

40/0/21 looks VERY strong, but with icy veins and drums and skull i'm already at 1.61 seconds, heroism would put my WAY under, which would cause problems, fire with all the haste is just over 1.5-1.6

2 minute/3 minute pairings need to be re-examined. I'm guessing there's at least a chance that it'll finally be better to pair the 2.

Even not pairing 2/3 minute timers, Icy Veins ALWAYS popping with AP on 40/0/21 might even push it over deep fire/veins, at least 10/48/3

Edit: Clarification

 

ollepe

I have no idéa how to test this. Can anyone clarify how to test it?

 

Fizzl

Remove your talents.
Get about 125 hit.
Do 100 Frost bolts on Dr Boom.
Do 100 Fireballs on Dr. Boom.
You should see about the same amount of misses.

Get Elemental Precision.
Do 100 Frost bolts on Dr Boom.
Do 100 Fireballs on Dr Boom.
You should see more misses from the fireballs.

 

LiquidHAL

I don't think Dr. Boom would work on resist tests, he's only level 68. Even with no +hit or talents a player has 98% chance to hit against a mob 2 levels lower. Against a mob two levels higher, your resist cap is still only 5%. Enough to test if there's a difference, but not enough to test the 6% value that precision is theoretically giving frostbolt. You'd need a level 73 mob, or a sub-70 character to test it.

 

Qbert

So what does everyone think of Rank 14 Fireball/Frostbolt being on the PTR and the possibilities if it goes live? Obviously it would be a bigger boost to Fire PvE DPS and a further blow to Arcane DPS. As much as I'd like to see it go live, the cynical mage in me thinks there won't be a chance.

 

LiquidHAL

The first thought that went through my mind was spell upgrade tomes in Sunwell like we had in AQ20.

 

Copernicus

I doubt it. The pre-mades weren't exactly given the right skills, as can be seen with the Seed of Corruption bug for warlocks.

 

Etherealz

rank 14 fireball would give glaive rogues a run for their money.

.... well maybe if they only got a resto shaman!

 

Kir

Did you mean 'not' on the same cooldown?

Yea, I would imagine serpent braid will be a little bit better with the gem buffs. 25% more of a super mana potion amount of mana would help with mana issues if you don't have a shadow priest, or could swich to using molten over mage armor with it etc..

But, I can't imagine it's a better DPS boost then a hex shrunken head or even Icon of the silver crescent. Even if you can't stack them.

 

macbeet

Currently i see three possibilities for rank 14 fireballs and the like on the PTR:

a) mistake, i'll be taken away
b) mages get a buff by increasing their main nuke from level 66 to level 70
c) all classes get their main nukes (or heals) increased to level 70

Option a) is most likely, because it would be too good, since we got buffed two patches in a row.
In favor of b) is that hardly a class has their main nuke such low level (shamans 67 I think, I can be off on this statement).
If blizzard were to implement c) in contrast to their previous statements, then we can expect some sort of librams that drop somewhere...

 

Sackobones

I think for blizzard the easiest way to balance the game for casters is to release new spells or alter the spells themselves rather than fool with the mechanics around our spells.

Adding in an Arcane Blast Rank2 and a Rank 11 Arcane Missle would adjust how arcane performs. Rank 14 fireball and frostbolt how those specs perform. With careful testing they can easily fix dps issues with classes by just adding new spells or changing features on spells.

Its easier than doing sweeping talent reviews imho.

 

◊ Vontre

The issues are with scaling, not with the base values.

Ex: fixing arcane is pretty much as simple as a buff to empowered arcane missiles.

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