[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 78

galzohar · 12/29/07, 1:22 PM

1150 spell dmg on armory
80 dmg flask
23 dmg food
42 dmg oil
101 dmg totem
--------
1396 dmg

and I'm probably missing something. Maybe the shaman was elemental which is even more dmg with 2/5 t4.

Akron · 12/29/07, 1:50 PM

You're missing Improved Spirit ;-)

Etherealz · 12/29/07, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by Rounced

That post seems to imply that Frost is dead, by comparison to Fire, for raiding.

Is it really though?

Sure the 4T6 bonus doesn't affect the Water Elemental but don't forget that the Elemental gets a lot more out of all the shaman raid buffs. Wrath of Air gives you 101 additional damage, it gives the Elemental 101 + 37.88 = 138.88 additional damage. Bloodlust is also amazing for a Frost mage, if timed right, since the Elemental gets it too.

There was this post by Vontre back before Icy Veins and the Cold Snap changes were announced. (10/12/07)

The post was made regarding the death of Arcane spec with the changes to the MSD. What I think is very interesting is that the numbers for Fire and Frost are so close to each other. In 2.3.2 Fire gained a couple of percentage points from having Icy Veins available but Frost gained pretty much double that due to the buff to Cold Snap allowing ~5% more uptime with the elemental and 50% more uptime for Icy Veins (using a 10 minute fight duration length as the model).

Those numbers from Vontre also didn't include the current bug with Elemental Precision.

It seems to me that if the 2 specs were that close before 2.3.2 then the buff to Cold Snap (and the bugged EleP) should push Frost that much closer, if not superior to, Fire spec. Pushback and Elemental fragility will, of course, change the numbers dramatically in actual practice but I'm really not seeing where Fire suddenly gained an obvious superiority over Frost, especially just based on the theorycrafting I've seen in this thread.

I generally tend to agree with vontre's numbers. Although, he didn't mention t6 4pc - and I'm assuming the 1200 dmg he mentioned was unbuffed damage, which is a little low - at least for me personally. Also I noted he made mention of flame caps in his conclusion, but I'm not sure if he included them in the calculations. And unless I'm wrong - I believe personal haste rating doesn't scale with the elemental, although you can minimilize your haste gear - I personally will be running with close to 90 haste, when i craft the bracers and swap in my za hit / haste ring - possibly closer to 120 haste depending on which cape drops first ><. I wanted to run with this setup now purely because, If I manage to snag a skull - I will be able to begin a 10th fireball inside icy veins comfortably. That said - the best trinket in the game doesn't scale as well with frost :P (again assuming I'm right about the elemental not haste scaling)

galgara · 12/29/07, 3:06 PM

I have been browsing trying to find if anyone had run the numbers on the most efficient chain casting method in 2.3 or 2.3.2 ie. G15 spam, cast sequence, or just pressing right before end of spell, but I have had no such luck finding these numbers. If someone could point me in the right direction or tell me there thoughts it would be much apreciated. Thank you

Etherealz · 12/29/07, 3:14 PM

Originally Posted by galgara

I have been browsing trying to find if anyone had run the numbers on the most efficient chain casting method in 2.3 or 2.3.2 ie. G15 spam, cast sequence, or just pressing right before end of spell, but I have had no such luck finding these numbers. If someone could point me in the right direction or tell me there thoughts it would be much apreciated. Thank you

On the ptr for 2.3.2 - I found spamming the key via mousewheel / g15 to be the best method - I posted my combatlog a few pages back for icelance spam and fireball spam. Searix also posted similar results. This was a week or so ago though - but I assume it hasn't changed.

galgara · 12/29/07, 7:28 PM

thx, just went and checked it out, guess I will keep carefully timing it with quartz right now and then try mousewheel in 2.3.2. If anyone does any further investigation a pm would be much apreciated.

◊ Vontre · 12/29/07, 7:45 PM

The short answer in regards to fire vs frost is "it depends". I'm still getting some better numbers for fire in my programatic (release coming very soon!) approach, as well as the spreadsheet, however frost can potentially perform very well. It's not as consistent though. Frost dps tapers off quickly as you move past the initial zomg timers section of a fight, as you push further and further past ~4m it drops off significantly. It also depends a lot on encounter effect, like not getting pushbacked to hell and back and not having the water elly bite the dust mere seconds after summoning.

All that being said, the numbers do come close and we can justify frost purely on the power of ice block, which is an incredibly useful tool. Oh wait... no that doesn't work like that anymore. And that's why frost spec is (imo) a dead raiding spec now, it no longer has that ace which would allow you to justify taking a build that is demonstrably worse dps.

◊ manly · 12/29/07, 7:51 PM

While this isn't scientific, I am fairly sure from extended testing that G15 spamming does give better results than spamming 'on the red line'. And that is using a 'conservative' 50 cast/sec.

galzohar · 12/29/07, 8:48 PM

Is there a practical way to do the G15 spam without actualy buying the G15 keyboard? (then again now I have a bigger desk I can actually consider buying out)

Etherealz · 12/29/07, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

Is there a practical way to do the G15 spam without actualy buying the G15 keyboard? (then again now I have a bigger desk I can actually consider buying out)

yes - you can create very simple scripts to spam 1 key when you press another. Nothing interacting with packets in the game etc, no more third party to WoW than say MSN - It's doing the exact same proceedure as a g15.

Searix · 12/29/07, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by Etherealz

yes - you can create very simple scripts to spam 1 key when you press another. Nothing interacting with packets in the game etc, no more third party to WoW than say MSN - It's doing the exact same proceedure as a g15.

To avoid the risk of getting a nasty trojan or virus do you have a safe one in mind?

koetjeka · 12/29/07, 10:27 PM

To avoid the risk of getting a nasty trojan or virus do you have a safe one in mind?

Isn't it possible to "copy" the program you get with the G15 keyboard and change the G keys to the keys you use yourself?
I don't know if it's allowed though.

galgara · 12/29/07, 11:28 PM

for those of us who do not know, what exactly do u bind the macro key to on the g15? Just (my fireball key)?

Also, vontre (or whoever has an opinion) I am sure someone has thought of this but I could not find it, would a deep frost build with the 3% crit damage meta and a high crit rating (ie switching some +dmg for +crit gems) be any more viable now with the increased availablity of haste gear and the addition of IV (if they ever give it to us ;p ).

Etherealz · 12/29/07, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Searix

To avoid the risk of getting a nasty trojan or virus do you have a safe one in mind?

I code it myself :P

◊ manly · 12/29/07, 11:57 PM

I don't want to be the party pooper here but I would just like to remind everyone that macroing stuff outside of wow macros is to be done at your own risk -- nobody knows when Blizzard will change their stance on the matter (it already is in a rather grey area to start with). I don't mind talking about it, but I would gently ask for anyone to not provide instructions on theses boards about how to do this. Mentioning a software by name is about as far as I think we should go, but please no links directly to software. If you must ask, ask in PMs.

While I have personally been a long time user of the G15, and yes, specifically because it does have repeated keystroke capabilities, I have always been doing so fully aware I might log on one day and find out I have been suspended.

◊ Vontre · 12/30/07, 6:22 AM

Originally Posted by galgara

for those of us who do not know, what exactly do u bind the macro key to on the g15? Just (my fireball key)?

Also, vontre (or whoever has an opinion) I am sure someone has thought of this but I could not find it, would a deep frost build with the 3% crit damage meta and a high crit rating (ie switching some +dmg for +crit gems) be any more viable now with the increased availablity of haste gear and the addition of IV (if they ever give it to us ;p ).

Not really, those factors don't have a significant impact on the scaling. And my tests included all those anyway. Oh and crit gems suck, crit is a horrible stat to try and stack.

Doroteasenjk · 12/30/07, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

1150 spell dmg on armory
80 dmg flask
23 dmg food
42 dmg oil
101 dmg totem
--------
1396 dmg

and I'm probably missing something. Maybe the shaman was elemental which is even more dmg with 2/5 t4.

Okay, I get the point about the buffs. I still don't see where you got 1150 spell damage at the beginning of Tier 5 content. As I said, the top guy on the list (on my server, in my guild) has several more pieces from Tier 5 content than I do, and he stretches to get 1150 fire damage.

I used to have 1050 damage at the beginning of Tier 5 in my full DPS gear. Swap about 60 +hit for 60 +dmg for boss fights, which theorycrafting says is a good trade. Fully raid buffed, I would be about 1180 damage, as our elemental shaman was a rare and precious commodity. Since far more than 50% of raiding mages are at beginning of Tier 5 content or earlier, 1200 damage is a more than sufficient assumption.

The point I'm trying to get at with this is that theorycrafting about outliers is simply a spreadsheet exercise. More importantly, scoffing at theorycrafting that doesn't assume the outliers is not productive.

Etherealz · 12/30/07, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Doroteasenjk

Okay, I get the point about the buffs. I still don't see where you got 1150 spell damage at the beginning of Tier 5 content. As I said, the top guy on the list (on my server, in my guild) has several more pieces from Tier 5 content than I do, and he stretches to get 1150 fire damage.

I used to have 1050 damage at the beginning of Tier 5 in my full DPS gear. Swap about 60 +hit for 60 +dmg for boss fights, which theorycrafting says is a good trade. Fully raid buffed, I would be about 1180 damage, as our elemental shaman was a rare and precious commodity. Since far more than 50% of raiding mages are at beginning of Tier 5 content or earlier, 1200 damage is a more than sufficient assumption.

The point I'm trying to get at with this is that theorycrafting about outliers is simply a spreadsheet exercise. More importantly, scoffing at theorycrafting that doesn't assume the outliers is not productive.

I beg to differ - Right after the patch where they buffed kara loot, and mindblade etc - I was already at 1100 unbuffed spell dmg. And now with the season three weapons available to pretty much everyone - I don't think 1200 buffed spell damage is really realistic.

koetjeka · 12/30/07, 10:53 AM

It also depends on what talent build you take. For example: I am arcane specced with arcane mastery. Arcane mastery gives 0,25 x ~600int = 150 dmg. With this talent and T5 gear I have ~1450 arcane dmg raid buffed.

Vonwen · 12/30/07, 12:37 PM

1200 unbuffed is still a lot, unless you exclusively gem with 12 dmg. Armory says I have 1119 unbuffed, with quite a decent gear though. And I'm sure as hell I didn't have 1200 unbuffed when I started T5 content.

Vhad · 12/30/07, 12:48 PM

With WoWEquip I did a setup of very early t5 gear setup, tailor and enchanting assumed and it had 1151 fire dmg without crusader trinket in the calculation, no epic gems used. Shy of the hit cap but could easily be fixed with neck/trinket changes, maybe even ring.

galzohar · 12/30/07, 1:29 PM

galz - The World of Warcraft Armory

Only SSC/TK pieces are boots of blasting and T5 shoulders.
If I was still playing on US I would've regemmed for hit long ago, although the drop will be in the stam/crit department as just swapping the nightseyes and noble topazes to 5 dmg 4 hit would put me ~2-3 hit rating short of cap. So I would have same spell damage with slightly less stamina and crit and hit cap. If I had magtheridon's ring and I can just swap my dmg/crit and dmg/stam gems to 9 dmg instead having even more spell dmg. (the reason for the shitty gemming is that at the time I was running at a whopping 5k HP unbuffed and the HP from those pieces was the highest stamina gained per dmg lost, and hit gems didn't even exist back then either).

Etherealz · 12/30/07, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

galz - The World of Warcraft Armory

Only SSC/TK pieces are boots of blasting and T5 shoulders.
If I was still playing on US I would've regemmed for hit long ago, although the drop will be in the stam/crit department as just swapping the nightseyes and noble topazes to 5 dmg 4 hit would put me ~2-3 hit rating short of cap. So I would have same spell damage with slightly less stamina and crit and hit cap. If I had magtheridon's ring and I can just swap my dmg/crit and dmg/stam gems to 9 dmg instead having even more spell dmg. (the reason for the shitty gemming is that at the time I was running at a whopping 5k HP unbuffed and the HP from those pieces was the highest stamina gained per dmg lost, and hit gems didn't even exist back then either).

Thanks for that - you can see, with a s3 weapon and swapping in darkmoon card : crusade you'd see him breaking into 1200 unbuffed spell pre 25man raiding.

galzohar · 12/30/07, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Etherealz

Thanks for that - you can see, with a s3 weapon and swapping in darkmoon card : crusade you'd see him breaking into 1200 unbuffed spell pre 25man raiding.

My point exactly. It's very easy to have that spell damage with hit cap, if you're simply not slacking (or quit playing on that server

).

Even on my fresh paladin (1 month at 70) I'm constantly surprised by how little healing/mp5/crit people have when they had been 70 for months...

Baruk · 12/30/07, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

galz - The World of Warcraft Armory

Only SSC/TK pieces are boots of blasting and T5 shoulders.
If I was still playing on US I would've regemmed for hit long ago, although the drop will be in the stam/crit department as just swapping the nightseyes and noble topazes to 5 dmg 4 hit would put me ~2-3 hit rating short of cap. So I would have same spell damage with slightly less stamina and crit and hit cap. If I had magtheridon's ring and I can just swap my dmg/crit and dmg/stam gems to 9 dmg instead having even more spell dmg. (the reason for the shitty gemming is that at the time I was running at a whopping 5k HP unbuffed and the HP from those pieces was the highest stamina gained per dmg lost, and hit gems didn't even exist back then either).

Sure, but I think we can agree on the point that it IS impossible pre T6 content if you're NOT tailor/enchanter....
I've pretty much anything that one can have from t5 content but I'm hovering at 1078dam in bossgear.
So even with flask/oil/food I'll not get past 1200