Rouncer

Sorry to change the topic a bit but I had something very strange just happen and I was wondering if anyone can explain how this is even possible.

In a WSG and I cast a max rank Frostbolt on a Rogue who was just at the end of Cloak of Shadows (was hoping to hit as it faded but not sure if the timing worked out that way or not). I hit him and it hit for 200. No absorb or anything else in the combat log just a plain hit for exactly 200. How can that occur with a binary spell?

Is it possible that Blizzard has changed the rules regarding Binary spells and the partial resist aspect and made it so that instead of pure miss they get reduced by the target's resist rate? I know this is completely out of left field but I was that surprised by a hit that low and it got the marbles rolling and I'm just wondering if there is any way that could be what is happening?

 

Muphrid

Sounds like Cheat Death?

 

Rouncer

Yes! Thanks I hadn't seen that talent in practice before now I guess. Thought I was losing my mind.

 

Etherealz

We could also agree that somebody in pre bt / hyjal content who is NOT a tailor isn't min/max'ing very well to begin with :P

 

Hate Monkey

That can be taken further than that, and for each class too, and it wont ever end. This is not something that should be pushed on.

 

xiaoxin21

In the same vein, we can also argue that somebody in BT/Hyjal should drop tailoring for leatherworking for drums or jewel crafting for the JC only gems, after enchanting your rings with +12 damage.

It crosses my mind more than once to do it as honestly speaking there isn't really any endgame items that tailoring provide that is BOP or tailoring only after you enter BT while drums provides a party buff that affects dps on every boss in the game.

 

Etherealz

That's true - but in either case the bt / hyjal mage is still well over 1200 unbuffed spell damage - my point was more towards 1 single post about dps values centered around 1200 spell damage in a comparison between frost and fire, of course since i mentioned the t6 bonus in my critique, I also proposed that 1200 unbuffed spell was a tad low, someone with 4 pc t6 likely is hovering around 1300 unbuffed or better. - and the argument was that most mages don't even have 1200 - of course - all mages 'could' achieve at least that - Also I would like to think that the large majority of the people that read and comprehend some of the charts and numbers posted on this board are well into 25 man progression anyway. But I could be way off base on that.

 

galzohar

While dropping tailoring for LW (better than JC it seems, as the JC benefits are rediculessly low) looks like a good idea for the short-term BT farming, keeping in mind sunwell and WotLK will probably also have good BoP tailored items makes it not that great of an idea. Especially consdiering that to drop tailoring you pretty much need to be farming BT already anyway, so it's not like you'll use LW for progressing through BT.

If you have enough leatherworkers in a raid can you actually keep the haste buff up 100%? (which btw is another cooldown stacking to keep in mind unless you give all your drums to melee or whoever the LW is currently grouped with and it isn't you, as we all know most raids don't have 12+ leatherworkers).

I still don't see a reason to keep something like a gathering proffession, engineering or even alchemy, although I suppose you could argue for eng/alch as being possible for future upgrades. But tbh you see they tried giving those proffessions good items yet they still fail as proffessions for the min-maxer (unless you're a mage that will never raid SSC/TK then eng headpiece is more or less equal to enchanting).

Thinking about it leatherworking ATM might actually be superior to enchanting... My paladin still has an open profession (herbalism) so that's something to keep in mind when I get more gold ;p

 

◊ manly

Well, heres what I've decided to do.

+24dmg vs 80 haste (5.07%) for 30 seconds every 2 min (and eats a GCD to activate). Both give arguably similar results in terms of dps boost when you consider cooldown stacking and particularly icy veins. However, leatherworking will also increase your group dps. If I had to chose, I think LW is the clear winner.

The other thing I've elected to do is to gather all the mats for grinding 0-375 leatherworking, and switch to leatherworking as soon as I will see the sunwell loot tables. Truth be told, I don't expect sunwell to give any BOP tailoring pattern that beats the best drop you can get from raiding. If you look at all professions, one of the only time where professions gave better gear than raid loot is frozen shadowweave boots for s.priests (better than naj boots) and that is about it. Everything else was inferior to other possible loots.

So what I am doing is basically hold on to see sunwell loot tables. If there is no incentive to keep tailoring, then I will switch to LW on the spot. Grinding 0-350 costs approx 1000g, not even including the gold you can make back form disenchanting the stuff made to level up. It is fairly cheap. Then you can make drums for much cheaper than flamecaps. If not, drums of battle often sell for 10g for 50 activations, because leatherworkers make a bunch to grind up to 375. I bought like 10 set of drums. It was cheap. The other thing is that grinding 375 enchanting is a lot more expansive than that.

Then I always have the option of dropping leatherworking and regrinding tailoring to 375. I mean it sucks, but its not really that bad. It is far cheaper than if I had taken enchanting.

The other reason that leads me to believe tailoring will never become interesting again is because I seriously doubt Blizzard will make another spellfire/shadowweave fiasco come WOTLK. I cannot imagine that they would give, again, 'overpowered' crafted gear. I really doubt tailoring will ever become required for raiding like it was on TBC launch. I know I won't be missing tailoring - at all.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Otterpop

I apologize in advance for asking this when it has probably been covered previously in the thread, but I wanted to be absolutely sure about something before making changes to my character.

Elemental Precision is currently bugged to give an additional 3% spellhit to frostbolt only, correct?

This being the case, if I were to spec into any of the numerous flavors of build that use frostbolt as it's main nuke, what spellhit rating should I be shooting for? I would think it can be less than 164 (which is what I currently strive for being 10/48/3), but could someone thats not terribad at math advise me on the exact rating I would need?

Again, I apologize if this question is just crapping up the thread, just wanted to be sure I wasn't doing something stupid.

PS: I would also agree with Manly, that Blizzard will very likely try to avoid the fiasco they had with crafted epics and their relative power compared to other itemization at WOTLK release.

 

Amrahil

Otterpop: You will need 12.62 x 10 = 126 Spell Hit Rating for 10% Spell Hit (maybe round up to 127 Spell Hit Rating just to be safe) , then Elemental Precision will provide the last 6% for your bugged Frostbolt.

And yes, I believe it will only work with Frostbolt.

 

galzohar

When you think about it, even if they don't make another "baseline" tailoring set such as spellfire/fsw/spellstrike, we all know if blizzard wants they can take a proffession and make it give benefits you couldn't gain otherwise. Just like leatherworking all of a sudden got drums, and enchanting gave ring enchants, who knows what other proffessions will have in the future? Heck even some on-use herbs are only useable if you're a herbalist. Although I doubt gathering proffessions will get any really useful benefits, it is possible as well.
So if you're thinking about very long term, you'll never be able to justify re-leveling a proffession. But if you're looking at what is best *right now*, tailoring+LW and when you're in T6 enchanting+LW is the way to go.
Even if you're just getting into raiding now you should probably get tailoring, as the amount of time you'll be using those items will still be very long compared to the price to level+craft them. We all know how long it takes to get decked in T5/6 gear.

 

Krazen

With tailoring, boots of blasting were solid BoP pieces (at the tier 5 level). Mantle of Nimble Thought was supposed to be a good BoP piece (at the tier 6 level). I wouldn't be surprised to see something in sunwell.

That said, you could probably craft the piece and drop tailoring after that.

 

Sancus

You can, but these are all weaker arguments than the tailoring one. You can organize these choices in terms of cost/benefit, tailoring pre-bt/hyjal provides the largest benefit for the cost, and to be honest, the benefit is so night and day that there's really no argument against it aside from "I'm lazy and don't want to play the game right". You should be tailoring at this level, period. Leatherworking is also good. If two people go leatherworking in your caster group, that's basically +40 average haste rating, which is something like +50 damage at that level. That's a lot of damage, and this is why I'm hoping to do this sometime before Sunwell. Enchanting is the next best thing to do after this, but it's only +24 damage that is temporary until you upgrade your rings(which you might never do if you can't enchant the next ones), and it's also going to cost you a lot more than the ~1k g that it costs to level leatherworking, so I'd say we're starting to get into the realm of "optional" cost/benefit with enchanting.

Jewelcrafting is just a retarded waste of time, the only really good gem you get from it is +14 damage, which is a whopping +2 damage compared to the BT gem. This temporary benefit is certainly not even remotely worth the cost.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

◊ Vontre

Tailoring sets are great for people who hate being alive. >>

If you're gonna do that, for the love of god at least pick up the stamina from the socket bonuses.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

"We agree with Communism." - Greg Street 2009

 

Hate Monkey

I just wish people would of read my post and not commented on the choice of professions to min/max your character. We can sit here and argue whether or not to drop professions when we've maxed our gear for the current raid zone, and it wont stop for pages and pages.

We can all agree that if you want to maximize your character, Leatherworking, Echanting, Tailoring, Jewelcrafting are all a must at some point, the problem with all of them is when you get the rare BoE/P patterns for each. Does dropping enchanting when you have ALL the formula's for LW for the drums sound like a wise investment? No.

Sancus does that boost to your dps make you ride the line of threat more though? There is always a line of where more dps means more threat limitations, and as of now, fight dependent, a full T6 geared mage will push the threat limit on many many fights.

 

Sancus

Screw that. I did bt/hyjal with 7.5k hp buffed and I LIKED IT. That's REAL MAGE RAIDING. Red gems all the way.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Otterpop

Thanks Amrahil!

Also, good point on tailoring Krazen.

 

Imbar

My raiding experience is less advanced than that (pre-Hyjal) but I also ride about 8k buffed.
To quote Vontre's sig, "Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire."
If you can sack health to push out more damage, play smart, and not die, do it.
That's my idea of min/maxing, at least.

 

Leialyn

In BT there are a lot of encounters where the whole group gets damage. Naj'entus watershield explosion + random spike can kill you (even with frostward), your dispellers are slow at Gorefiend and you catch fire ticks + shadow cloud, RoS phase3 is all about group damage and staying alive, Illidari council envenom can kill you even without any groupdamage if your healers are slow and you have low health.
I was raiding BT/Hyjal with Spellfire set as well and I'm now glad to have more hp on T6 ^^

 

Imbar

For Najentus, you need a minimum 8.5k, 10k being the recommended number. Assuming raid buffed 8.5k min, getting to 10k is basically as easy as swapping in a piece of Gladiator armor or two.

 

ainav

To Max your damage is one thing, to have resurection timer is a complete different story.
Noone with 7.5k hp buffed in bt/hyjal can call himself a REAL MAGE!

 

galzohar

The fact that with crafted gear and fiery wrath greens I had like 7k HP buffed makes me wonder how you even got to the point where you have 7.5k HP buffed. (I remember in true max dps gear pre-raiding I had 5k unbuffed HP which resulted iirc in somewhere around 7k with full party and raid HP support - cannot be bothered to calculate exactly how much nor do I remember how much above 5k I was as it definitely wasn't exactly 5000). On a side note people kept telling me "you'll die on this fight" and "you'll die on that fight" and the only fight I actually had to swap gear was aran, the rest was BS and doable with low HP. Illhoof may require some very minimal gear swaps if your healers are slow and you're really at 5k unbuffed).

Again I can't see how you clear BT with 7500 HP buffed unless you leveld your alt got some crafted/kara gear got in an ssc/tk run and got carried through BT... Just about any raid dropped epic seems to have enough stamina that even if you keep some of the tailoring gear you *should* be well over 7500 buffed. Or do you not run with 3 paladins in a raid for kings and/or lacking any other buffs?

 

xiaoxin21

You can get pretty low on HP on crafted gear and selected BT epics. There are rings without any sta(ring of gathering storms,mana attuned band,Translucent Spellthread Necklace) and also the crafted spellfire/spellstrike have minimal sta. Hatefury Mantle also have little sta.

 

galzohar

I suppose it's not impossible but it definitely takes some kind of effort to keep your sta so low consdiering void reaver head, T5/badge pants and others all take you quite higher than the spellfire/spellstrike/fiery wrath stam level, you'd have to pretty much pick all those low/no-stam pieces and not upgrade spellfire/spellstrike to really be that low.