[DRF]Solmyr

In the spirit of breaking the flow of conversation, I would like to ask the scholars here about Spell Haste Rating. I have used the search tool, but have not seen a conversation where an optimal Spell Haste Rating is suggested (is there one?).

In Lhivera's TCoM, I still see SHR valued equally with damage. I also believe that SHR takes up less itemization value. Is SHR an easy/cheap way to improve my damage output? Personally, I have been trying to target the 125ish range for Spell Haste rating to try and squeeze in an extra fireball into my rotation. Should I be aiming higher/lower?

New Casting Time = Base Casting Time / (1 + (Spell Haste Rating/1570))

Assuming there is no push-back, no latency, and one can stand still the entire time: a 10FB:1ScR rotation would be possible at 78 Spell Haste rating.

Assuming the same scenario, but averaging 100ms latency: a 10FB:1ScR rotation would be possible at 141 Spell Haste rating.




If this topic should have been in the Help Me Please topic, I'll gladly delete this and move it over there.

 

ildon

Additionally, when comparing crit and damage you have to account for the fact that within the itemization scheme, 1 spell CR is about equal to 0.85 spell damage (meaning spell damage is cheaper), so for each crit rating gem you use you're losing more than just 1 spell damage potentially.

 

Muphrid

Well, like all ratings, 1 point of spell haste will cost 1 item point, while 1 +damage costs only .85 item points.

Beyond that, just bear in mind that each additional spell haste rating will (very slightly) decrease the value of haste compared to other stat.

 

galzohar

With the exception of rounding errors, of course. (aka 5 dmg 4 crit gems vs 9 dmg gems)

 

Amrahil

I'm also trying to get an extra Fireball into my rotation, currently sitting on exactly 100 SHR. I can currently run a 9FB:1Scr comfortably but it could be interresting to see if those 40-50 Haste Rating points would help me squeeze in a tenth Fireball.

I do have [Loop of Cursed Bones] which I'd rather not swap with my Hellfire Encased Pendant. And the only other apparent upgrade would be the BT trash drop ring to swap with Naj'entus ring to get me there.

The most optimal way would be to simply have another Fire Mage run the Fire Vurn debuff, and let you do Fireballs only. But this isn't always the case in raids, some rare times you might be alone.

 

Acetyle

Last night actually, on each Al'ar attempt. More than 100 frostbolts per attempt. Best we did was 30%, so I would have probably cast about 170 frostbolts per attempt. Looking at WWS parses, most frost mages that suvive the fight cast more than 200...

As some have already said earlier, things change when you get to 70 and start raiding.

 

Hate Monkey

To be totally honest, if you wanted to maximize dps, you base your scorch rotations off how many fire mages are in the raid. If you have 2, you do a 18 Fireball/1 Scorch rotation optimally. I generally stick to something like that because if the Scorch Debuff falls off, I know someone wasn't doing their job, and such, their dps suffers more than mine.

 

Pintofbrew

Amarahil: What's the point of fixating on getting one in your rotation? I can see that due to haste stacking your fireball-time-to-scorch-time ratio reduces and that you'd like your total fireball-to-scorch ratio to reduce so as to improve overall total dps more, but you're risking the rather doom-bringing possibility of running out of scorch;

Most of us (as I understand) are on the 8-1 Fball-Sc precisely because if it was 9-1 and that 1 missed, due to Quartz casting we'd already be a GCD into the next fireball before we registered we failed to refresh scorch.

What I'm getting to is, is the benefit of cutting it so slim with error margin worth the possibility of losing scorch?

Strictly TC-wise, however, it seems likely to be more efficient if a 0-haste mage takes over scorching and all other hasted mages drop it entirely. This is so simply because the non-hasted caster loses 0.5 of a fireball per scorch while the hasted one would lose more than 0.5.

That is entirely true. Bullshit statistical theories like "if I cast 1 spell at 51% crit it will crit" are what you should have debunked if you payed due attention to Vontre's Sweet Info Thread or indeed any of the successful TC demonstrated on these forums Athenalyn. And FYI you do indeed cast a hell of a lot of frostbolts. Run a data recording damage meter when you get to Kael'thas, Vashj (or Al'ar as pointed out). Hell, even Magtheridon at low gear levels lasts till you're blue in the face.

 

Copernicus

Two quick 2.3.2 questions-

Does Fire Vulnerability and Ignite still count as spell hits for Darkmon Card: Crusade?

Is Frostbolt getting mana from Judgement of Wisdom?

 

Cardynal

It really is best to have just 1 mage in the raid do all the scorching. Pick the least geared mage and assign him the task. I only scorch on bosses if the other mages are dead and at the start to help stack it up.

 

Maligne

I (and general best practices) disagree.

Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!

 

Cardynal

On the rare instance that it does fall, i do help stack it back up. I will agree that it is just a minor dps loss...but having 3 mages scorch vs 1 is still a dps loss. I expect a mage in an Illidan guild to be able to keep scorch up w/o letting it drop.

Now where it is more than a minor dps loss is during bloodlust...and now IV.

 

Tharia

If you need to scorch during the 20 secs of Icy Veins you should reconsider your playstyle :x

 

Sancus

So uh, did anyone confirm that Frostbite is fixed in 2.3.2 or if it's not? If it's not I'm going to be a sad pvp panda :/

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Cardynal

It was just a comment about when it would lower your dps.

I'm playing with the idea of putting IV on a macro with my fireball...which is how I use my trinkets. It maximizes uptime, but it has the potential of lowering the value of them considering you could time them for < 20%. It would really depend on the lenght of the fight for which is a better method.

Adding IV to fireball would give you the very likely potential of having to scorch while IV is up.

 

Jaedis

What's there to fix? You mean getting rid of it all together?

I didn't see anything in the patch notes at all about, so I doubt it. Frostbite isn't a huge deal anyhow, and it's really only fair now that all magi have Iceblock :P

 

Chilblain

I'm replying from work, so I hope the answer to these questions isn't painfully apparent once I log on.

I'm 11/0/50 deep frost. For raiding, my modus operandi is to summon my WE, pop my Icon trinket, and then hit Cold Snap so I have another WE on deck, and the cooldown can begin on Cold Snap.

Patch 2.3.2 brings a global reduction to Cold Snap, from 10 minutes down to 8. That's great, but I've not encountered many boss fights that last 10 minutes, or even 8, to make popping Cold Snap twice during an encounter a viable option.

But, putting two points in Ice Flows could reduce Cold Snap's cooldown to 6 minutes. Now there I could see it become possible to pop twice during a boss fight. I've listed what I would do, and then put an approximate time into the boss encounter next to each action as is would occur:

1. Cast Frostbolt (to apply Winter's Chill effect) -0:00
2. Summon WE (45 seconds 3 min CD) -0:05
3. Pop Icon of the Silver Crescent (20 seconds 2 min CD) -0:06
4. Cast Cold Snap (6 min CD) -0:07
5. Summon 2nd WE (45 seconds 3 min CD) -0:50 (approx.)
6. Spam Frostbolts until Icon is back up, then pop Icon -2:06
7. Spam Frostbolts until WE is back up, then summon 3rd WE -3:50 (approx.)
8. Spam Frostbolts until Icon is back up, then pop Icon -4:06 (approx.)
9. Spam Frostbolts until Cold Snap is back up, then pop Cold Snap -6:07 (approx.)
10. By this time Icon should be back up, so summon 4th WE and pop Icon again -6:08 (approx.)

I know I'm making a lot of assumptions here... like the survival of your WE, and you're not running around dodging cave-ins or whatever. But in my head, that seems viable. The big question for me is:

Are there enough boss fights that last 6+ minutes to make this rotation workable? Going by my hypothetical fight timer, the WE would back back from cool down at approx. 6:50, so if everything goes according to plan, those two points in Ice Flows will get you a 4th WE approx. 45 seconds before someone without that talent, unless my arithmetic is incorrect.

I thought the reduction in Cold Snap's cooldown would make Ice Flows a talent worth sacrificing some points for. But in laying it out like this, I'm not sure I'm convinced. You'd have to be in a 6+ minute boss fight, to get a 4th WE, and and any long encounter like that probably isn't going to be much fun for your WE to begin with. He'll get AoE'd, or smashed, or banished or something. I mean, it would be nice on Noralakk, but if you take 6 minutes to beat him anyway, you're probably not getting the extra loot he drops to begin with.

 

Kasi

There is quite a few fights that you could get that much on. Also this is depending on the gear of your raid and how fast you kill stuff. But in general.

SSC - Morogrim and Vashj, maybe Karathress
TK - VR, Alar and Kael (cold snap should come up twice there)
MH - Archimonde, maybe Azgalor.
BT - Supremus, possibly Gurtogg, possibly RoS (doesn't matter though since first phase is not a dps phase, balancing between 2 and 3 is the only issue), early Naj kills, early Mother kills, Illidari Council (another 2 times fight), Illidan (another 2 times fight)

 

Jarlyn

I don't raid full time as a frost mage, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I when I am frost (Illidan, mainly), the cooldown reductions encompassed by Ice Floes for other spells (Ice Barrier, CoC, etc) make it worth having in a deep frost build.

In regards to fight length, in T6 content a number of fights may be 6min+ during progression but should drop back under it once farmed. For Kael, Illidan, and *maybe* Council (with a lot of dead DPS or like, 15 healers) it might be possible at times to get off a third Cold Snap, around the 13min mark. That's assuming you use it immediately when it's up though, which is probably not realistic given the varying DPS requirements of Kael/Illidan.

 

Searix

I'll be interested to hear what you guys experience in your raids tonight with icy veins. I'm specifically looking for how you pair cooldowns

 

◊ manly

Actually I plan on intentionally not stacking bloodlust with icy veins. Read my other thread and you might be enlightened.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Xei

I am interested in hearing some theories surrounding Flame Cap, the new mana gem and evocation.

Now, I was frost spec until today, so am not really familiar with Fire's efficiency with a SPriest/Elemental Shaman in their group. As a Frost Mage (2/0/59) I never had to use evocate and survived just fine on the old mana gems and mana pots - with molten armor on most of the time.

What I want to determine is if its better to:

A) Chain chew flame caps and never use mana gems - possibly having to stop DPS to evocate.

or

B) Only chew flame cap in execute range, using the new and improved mana gem up until them, and losing zero time from having to evocate.



For comparison's sake, I am in early Hyjal and have 1112 fire, 33% crit with molten/AI. I raid with a SPriest and Elemental Shaman in my group, as well as have a Protection Paladin who usually keeps up Improved Seal of the Crusader or sometimes JoW depending on the length (and type) of the fight.

"Being a leader is not a position of power. It is a position of service." ~ Barestomper

WTB Oceanic Horde PvE Players

 

xiaoxin21

Xei, if you have an elemental Shaman in your group and your SP is competent , you should'nt have to use either gems or evocation.

Assuming you arent using destruction pots since it is expensive, just super mana pots or combat mana pots will do the trick. Fire is very mana efficient.

It pays to make a macro to whisper your feral druids to innervate too, often they will go around unused.

 

Etherealz

Evocation is a larger dps loss than using mana gems over flame caps - assuming that doing that will prevent you from having to evocate of course.

In terms of Mp5 / dps loss the order is something like this best to worst (at least for my spec / gear)

Super Mana pots vs Destruction pots
Mana Gems vs Flame caps
Evocation vs Fireballs
Clearcasting vs Icy veins
Mage Armor vs Molten armor

This is for a 5 minute boss encounter.
Edit: this also assumes a full evocate

 

Xei

I do stock destro pots, though I only plan on using them in execute range (macro for combustion+trinket+berserking+IV+Flamecap+Destro). I figured evo would be really bad because fights generally do not last all that long these days - ill burn it on the Hyjal trash waves moreso then the bosses.

I have loads of super mana's, as well as loads of flamecap's ... I guess I underestimated MoE at high crit levels (I would be close to 40% crit raid buffed on debuffed mob).

"Being a leader is not a position of power. It is a position of service." ~ Barestomper

WTB Oceanic Horde PvE Players