Yes Mana attuned band is the best ring under most circumstances. The exalted ring really sucks once you get much past 2-3min mark (because the more it goes on the less your proc_uptime% is). It gets beaten after that point by ring of ancient knowledge. And mana attuned band is even better than both, again, under most cases.
The exalted ring, in a vacuum, ignoring the proc, really really is subpar. Bad enough, in fact, that I do have serious plans to start replacing it on 4+ min fights with ancient knowledge.
Originally Posted by Alacrity
For the people questioning the validity of a 2400 mage dps parse,
The funny thing about this all is that mages were the ones in particular whom pushed for rogue nerfs, because of absurd dps numbers that could produce. Even with all the possible synergies I can have, I cannot break 2200 dps on teron, he did 2400 without malediction COE... so add another 3% to that...
So much for rogues being the highest single target dps.
Yes, and he's got 57% fireball crit rate. He just got absurdly lucky. The higher your fireball crit rate, the more you run the odds of getting rolling ignites too, only contributing further to this.
Still less dps than our 2450 dps hunter (and in case nobody spotted it, >2.2k dps from dps warrior too...): Loading...
Last edited by manly : 01/10/08 at 4:20 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I guess that assumes you can fully use the hit rating. I'm at a perfect 165 at the moment. I suppose I could drop exalted for mana attuned and use haste offhand.
Regarding the 2400+ dps Teron WWS, he had 57% crit and 3 drums. 57% sounds a bit excessive on the luck part, moonkin, elemental shaman and ret paladin adds 11%. With my ~36% normal critrating that still leaves to get 10% from consumables. Luck of the draw I guess.
I think an important note about Teron dps is the extremely short fight length, the shorter it gets the more RnG plays a role in the final result of individuals.
I guess that assumes you can fully use the hit rating. I'm at a perfect 165 at the moment. I suppose I could drop exalted for mana attuned and use haste offhand.
Regarding the 2400+ dps Teron WWS, he had 57% crit and 3 drums. 57% sounds a bit excessive on the luck part, moonkin, elemental shaman and ret paladin adds 11%. With my ~36% normal critrating that still leaves to get 10% from consumables. Luck of the draw I guess.
I think an important note about Teron dps is the extremely short fight length, the shorter it gets the more RnG plays a role in the final result of individuals.
Yes, he had some 3 drums, a high critrate.. but he didn't have other synergies that are available. Rogues were being scrutinized because 2500+ dps numbers were POSSIBLE under the right circumstances. From what I am seeing with a lucky crit rate and every synergy mages could hit 2600~ (he had no ret paladin, no moonkin, no ele shaman, no malediction coe, no fourth drum)
That is rediculous and you cannot deny that it is out of hand.
Well then, since our hunter beat that without any particularly excessive group stacking or consumables, I wonder how you react to that?
(edit: and FYI, we cannot know if he had 4 drums. If a drum was activated before engaging, then it would not show in WWS for that boss).
Last edited by manly : 01/10/08 at 4:37 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Well then, since our hunter beat that without any particularly excessive group stacking or consumables, I wonder how you react to that?
(edit: and FYI, we cannot know if he had 4 drums. If a drum was activated before engaging, then it would not be logged).
Your hunter had 2 drums a survial hunter in the raid, leader of the pack, another BM hunter in the group (double FI), blood frenzy on the mob from warrior... whats he missing.. grace of air?
2400 is a hunters peak.. mages can push farther from what I am seeing.
I don't think you understand. You're singling out a case that must have had less than 2 or 3 total repertoried cases in WWS of a mage having over 55% fireball crit rate on a > 2 min fight. It is something you see soo rarely that you simply cannot hope for it to happen. This is like pointing out that 'oh wait, but what if we had 100% nightfall uptime, and 100% drums of battle uptime, and 100% bloodlust uptime, and keep a PI rotation in, and perma innervate, and only dps during execute range, all the while having a 100% crit rate, mages can scale to infinity!'.
Well yeah. OK. Post Koosha' parse next week and see what I mean. A normal T6 mage raid-buffed and potted crit rate is 40-41% (with 10/48/3 or 2/48/3 spec). You're like crying about something that isn't realistically reproducible because it relies on extreme RNG luck.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I don't think you understand. You're singling out a case that must have had less than 2 or 3 total repertoried cases in WWS of a mage having over 55% fireball crit rate on a > 2 min fight. It is something you see soo rarely that you simply cannot hope for it to happen. This is like pointing out that 'oh wait, but what if we had 100% nightfall uptime, and 100% drums of battle uptime, and 100% bloodlust uptime, and only dps during execute range, all the while having a 100% crit rate, mages can scale to infinity!'.
Well yeah. OK. Post Koosha' parse next week and see what I mean. A normal T6 mage raid-buffed and potted crit rate is 40-41%. You're like crying about something that isn't realistically reproducible because it relies on extreme RNG luck. As I said, there is probably less than 2 or 3 parses with that much of a crit rate (given the proper 10/48/3 or 2/48/11 spec). You can get 50%+ crit rate with the horrifically bad 33/28/0, but your dps will also suck, so don't bother posting those.
A rogue hit 3000 dps (on a normal fight, no RoS or shade nonsense) once, one time ever. Furi on kaz`rogal, pre warglaive nerf, and pre haste nerf. It caused an UPROAR, of nerf cries.. even when there was only 2-5 people worldwide with double glaives... as I said before, if with lucky RNG and proper consumables it is even POSSIBLE for a mage to hit 2600~ dps, something is wrong. I am just bitter towards this thread because I have read the mage discussion here for a while now, and remember the posts from mages whining about rogues even being able to with every synergy and lucky rng to hit 2600+ numbers. Those dps numbers were nerfed into oblivion, I am still not doing as much dps as I was pre nerfs, and now mages are in a similar situation, yet you deny that something is wrong... interesting.
There is a tremendous difference between a rogue 3k parse at a time where very few people had full t6, and a 2.4k mage parse today that got absurdly lucky, and yet, still does less damage than other classes around.
In case you forgot, at the time furi/lars got their 3k parse, it was extremely extremely rare that you would see anyone much above 2k DPS (besides rogues). Full T6 was a rare commodity. Then you see someone do 3k DPS, it is a hell of a lot different then seeing a 2.4k mage parse doing less damage than the other classes.
Should you want to know, yes in an imaginary world where everything lined up perfectly, mage damage scales rather well. But just so you know, if you ever had that happen to a destruction warlock, that destruction warlock with 57% crit rate would make a mage really pale in comparison with a mere 2.4k dps. Gotta love how scaling works.
EDIT: and actually, if I recall correctly furi/lars got consistently really solid teron parses. It is not just ONE 3k parse that got rogues nerfed. Again, what got nerfed is haste (non-rogue-specific) in order to balance things out. I think the warglaives got their internal cooldown much later on. In this case were talking of one mage parse, which I am fairly confident you won't see happening again anytime soon. 57% crit rate is nowhere near the norm. 50% is stupidly lucky.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
A rogue hit 3000 dps (on a normal fight, no RoS or shade nonsense) once, one time ever. Furi on kaz`rogal, pre warglaive nerf, and pre haste nerf. It caused an UPROAR, of nerf cries.. even when there was only 2-5 people worldwide with double glaives... as I said before, if with lucky RNG and proper consumables it is even POSSIBLE for a mage to hit 2600~ dps, something is wrong. I am just bitter towards this thread because I have read the mage discussion here for a while now, and remember the posts from mages whining about rogues even being able to with every synergy and lucky rng to hit 2600+ numbers. Those dps numbers were nerfed into oblivion, I am still not doing as much dps as I was pre nerfs, and now mages are in a similar situation, yet you deny that something is wrong... interesting.
Interestingly enough those same rogues - on an average well synergized fight average 2300+ dps post nerf. A mage with a well synergized group is top end 2100 average.
A rogue hit 3000 dps (on a normal fight, no RoS or shade nonsense) once, one time ever. Furi on kaz`rogal, pre warglaive nerf, and pre haste nerf. It caused an UPROAR, of nerf cries.. even when there was only 2-5 people worldwide with double glaives... as I said before, if with lucky RNG and proper consumables it is even POSSIBLE for a mage to hit 2600~ dps, something is wrong. I am just bitter towards this thread because I have read the mage discussion here for a while now, and remember the posts from mages whining about rogues even being able to with every synergy and lucky rng to hit 2600+ numbers. Those dps numbers were nerfed into oblivion, I am still not doing as much dps as I was pre nerfs, and now mages are in a similar situation, yet you deny that something is wrong... interesting.
Oh, please, mage dps is nowhere near rogues right now. It's not even anywhere near warlocks and hunters. Your mage got roughly a solid 20% more crit than what is normal for a mage around those gear levels. Do 1.5x your crit% on a fight and see how much dps you do.
edit: I looked at his armory. He has 32.68% crit unbuffed in PvE gear. Fully buffed, that would be roughly 34%. You said he had no moonkin, ret pally, totem of wrath, etc. 57% vs. 34% is absurd luck, no matter how you put it.
Ah yeah don't you hate it when you get your evocation interrupted, or better yet, you get mind controlled, then it casts evocation, and someone fears you. Great times.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I know you will expect a 'omg what your talking about mages don't deal that much dps blah blah blah'.
But I mean...let's be realistic.
Rogues with the best gear possible will outdps mages with the best gear possible.
How many times have rogues been the dmg meter leaders? They are defintely up there the majority of cases.
And btw..have mages EVER EVER reached 3k dps? No.
We've reached 2.4k ONCE. Rogues have reached above 2.6k dps SEVERAL TIMES!
Hunters, DPS warriors, have reached around 2.5k average with top end gear.
Not to dramatise the situation, but if you count the exception as the standard...thats prejudice.
If 1 mage reaches 2.4k dps once, it should not be a factor in judging the level of dps a class can offer.
I'm not whining about rogue dps though. Rogues are a purely dps class, that's all they bring to raids, so it's very right for them to be top in dps.
We mages bring water, buffs, and occasional laughing at gnome mages ( /point). So I'm happy with the dps output we produce and I enjoy playing my class
And people will whine no matter what, so you kinda just have to accept it. Don't respond whining with whining.
Whine + whine = more whining (I know my corniness alert system just blew up)
And I apologise to everyone that I brought up a social topic into a theorycrafting forum :P
<@Terror> "It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield."
<@cky> opposite over hypotenuse
I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I've noticed MoE returning mana multiple times off of a single aoe spell as of 2.3.2. I was trying flamestrike spam on Hyjal trash last night (with 3/3 imp flamestrike) and in addition to being quite effective, it was really cheap thanks to frequent double and triple returns from one spell. It doesn't seem to be giving the 30% refund for each target that gets crit - sometimes I'd crit 3 guys and still get only one MoE proc. But critting more things at the same time seemed to have an effect, since the 2 or 3 procs I would occasionally get were only when I was hitting 10-12 guys at once. Almost every flamestrike gave me 2 MoE refunds if I hit most of the wave, and occasionally I would get 3, making the spell practically free.
First post here from a long time Lurker. I've been pretty happy with the DPS Arc/Frost (40/0/21) is providing at the T5 gear level. With the AOE present in some of these fights, it's working really well. Lastnight on Solarian I was able to put out 1928 DPS (with 2 waves of AOE in the fight, about 6-7 arcane explosions total). On more single target fights like VR I'm usually sitting 1400-1500.
This weeks Mother Shahraz kill for me: Loading... had CoE, no shaman, no destro pots, flame caps, 259 SR and molten armor, was near 34% crit raid buffed. 7% over character screen, so not to overboard.
Didn't get Hyjal logged this week, so can't show those bosses.
Kaimani: Flamestrike was reportedly giving back 2 MoE procs before the patch too, only AoE spell to do so.
I would like to see other parses this week from Mother Shahraz since WWS is to lame to allow sorting by date and not dps. This fight to me shows a better basis of good dps for casters do to each guilds different positioning.
I don't see the point to it, you have no control over how many fire and frost resist aura she puts up. I know on this week' shahraz we had 5 fire resistance aura and not a single frost.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
How many Heroisms/Bloodlusts did you get in that fight? In my guild they usually all go to the melee in a fight like teron.
I got 1 (since I had a elemental shaman in my group). Now that u mention it, we also used a BM hunter to buff ranged groups.
I really should start making WWS parses of our raids because some things said here do not reflect our dps meters. Currently the dmg meters are dominated by rogues/mages and a destro lock. This includes a double warglaives rogue that gets totems from a resto shaman and shouts from a fury warrior.
Just a Question in between:
Anyone here has a link to the Thread, where is calculated up to which +Spelldamage the use of Fireblast-Spam in between of Fireball-Casting makes sense ?
I don't want to reinvent the wheel by recalculating the whole thing.
Edited the posting to fit the rules and clear up the situation. Sorry for not being a native english Speaker.
The Question still exists, because i was not able to find the thread.
Just a Question in between:
Anyone here has a link to the Thread, where is calculated up to which +Spelldamage the use of Fireball makes sense ?
I'm a little bit lazy atm and don't want to reinvent the wheel.
Casi
Firstly, don't sign your posts. There are rules and not signing is one of them.
Secondly, don't be lazy. EJ is not a Customer Support Hotline where you turn up, go "I got a question, solve it for me because I can't be arsed to do a 5-min search, maggots".
Thirdly, what does "up to which +Spelldamage the use of Fireball makes sense ?" mean? Are you insinuating that past some spelldamage level Fireball -doesn't- make sense? Compared to what? Another mage nuke that scales better? I suspect you could make Pyroblast scale better with +spell if you had 3200 haste.
Thanks for the 'idiocy'. I edited my Posting to clear up my wish. I am not to lazy to search for the thread. Just can't find it so i did ask for it. I do a lot of TC and if you really read the posts written here you might be able to find my calculations about the efficency of crit/hit and haste in terms of Itemlevel. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Anyone else then me having problems with fireballs since 2.3.2?
Since patch I have had some 1000-1200 crits with rank 13 fireball, also got a couple of 800 normal hits witch made think it bugged and didnt account for any +damage.
A guild mate also said that he had read that the delay from button spamming had been removed with the patch, I have searched blizzards forum and this forums for a confirmation on this but havent found anything. Can aynone confirm this?
Now that you mention it, I did notice something strange with my spells last night. I will have to go back and see what exactly happened, but sometimes the damage I was seeing was extremely low- low enough where I stopped casting at one point to figure out what was going on. The problem corrected itself, and I thought no more about it... until I read your post. Any other experiences?
01/10/08, 4:14 PM
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