[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 9

epiphenom · 10/19/07, 6:03 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Item stat value with the old MSD (MSD doesn't affect stat values, but CSD makes crit and intellect ~6% better, if we go from 210% to 216.3% crits. Need some CSD info from PTR.)

Just tested it yesterday. CSD is functioning under the 2.1.2 RED values: base crits are enhanced to 154.5%, frost crits with ice shards are 209%. I didn't test anything else, but I consider these two tests to be reasonably conclusive (it would be bizarre in the extreme if the formula deviated for other types of crits). Deep fire crits would therefore probably be 216.3%.

Evalara · 10/19/07, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vhad

Ah well, thanks for the answer. I guess it's 10 48 3 or don't raid in 2.3.

Maybe at the t6 level, but at the t4 and t5 levels that's a pretty silly statement. Besides the trivially obvious exception of Al'ar, I've found a deep frost spec to be spectacular on Morogrim, lots of folks use frost mages as strider kiters on Vasjh, and I generally find 33/28/0 or 40/21/0 or other such variants superior for AoE fights like Hydross and Solarian. I've spent most of my time, since just after we first downed Prince, as 33/28/0 and any claims that it's not "viable" are nonsense, especially if you have the misfortune to be without a shadowpriest.

Vhad · 10/19/07, 6:34 PM

Yeah, I knew someone was going to react to it, was mostly for my own guild where I have to justify my raid spot with 5 active mages 4,5 warlocks an elemental shaman and a moonkin...

I still stand by it though, if MSD was unchanged we would have 2 very competetive specs for high end raiding, now it's fire and respec for Illidan most likely.

Akron · 10/19/07, 7:34 PM

On the "How Does Arcane Damage Work?" thread there was a nice discussion on 2.2 Arcane spec and the Spell Haste stat. The conclusions was that spell haste was very valuable for that particular spec as it amplified the proc-driven nature of AM spam as well as giving a raw DPS increase.

I'm sorry if this has been concluded previously in this very same thread (although I did not encounter it) , but I wish to ask about Spell Haste and 2.3 Deep Fire spec, which seems now to be the spec of choice again for high-end raiders.

Definitive answers?

Does 1% spell haste equal to 1% dps for Deep Fire? Just like 1% crit also is a 1% dps increase? How is that translated into spell damage in BT/T6 gear?

Spell haste is pretty cheap, only 15 rating for 1% haste, making it more economical than crit rating. Is this the stat of choice after reaching the hit cap?

Also - how does the new ZA/Badges gear (Ie. lots of spell haste) compare with the gear we have on live? The wand and the trinket have already been mentioned in previous posts, which seem very strong indeed - although Darkmoon: Crusade trinket vs the ZA trinket seems close?

Thank you

Cardynal · 10/19/07, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by Akron

On the "How Does Arcane Damage Work?" thread there was a nice discussion on 2.2 Arcane spec and the Spell Haste stat. The conclusions was that spell haste was very valuable for that particular spec as it amplified the proc-driven nature of AM spam as well as giving a raw DPS increase.

I'm sorry if this has been concluded previously in this very same thread (although I did not encounter it) , but I wish to ask about Spell Haste and 2.3 Deep Fire spec, which seems now to be the spec of choice again for high-end raiders.

Definitive answers?

Does 1% spell haste equal to 1% dps for Deep Fire? Just like 1% crit also is a 1% dps increase? How is that translated into spell damage in BT/T6 gear?

Spell haste is pretty cheap, only 15 rating for 1% haste, making it more economical than crit rating. Is this the stat of choice after reaching the hit cap?

Also - how does the new ZA/Badges gear (Ie. lots of spell haste) compare with the gear we have on live? The wand and the trinket have already been mentioned in previous posts, which seem very strong indeed - although Darkmoon: Crusade trinket vs the ZA trinket seems close?

Thank you

Not sure what the ratio is...but the best gear setup i could find has 90 haste on it. When i added some of the za items to vontre's spreadsheet to see how they stacked against the items out of BT/Hyjal...most of them fall pretty short as they're lacking in high dmg/crit and spend a lot of their points in haste.

ZA trinket (88 passive dmg) VS DC:C (78 passive dmg over 5 minutes as fire)

The 75 badge pants were lower dps when switching them w/ the channeled elements and having 4/5 t6.

The ZA haste boots were the closer to the naj boots than the haste pants were to the channeled elements...but still not greater.

The haste/dmg/hit ring is really close to the ring of ancient wisdom, but if you don't need the hit, it's a waste.

I'm actually expecting them to buff they Hyjal/BT gear this patch. Nothing has been said yet...but for other classes there are a lot of pieces of loot that are pretty close to being on par w/ BT/Hyjal loot. They've already said this patch is going to be on the PTR for a while.

◊ Vontre · 10/19/07, 8:30 PM

A lot of people seem to be under the notion that with the CURRENT version of MSD, stacking haste will somehow have a multiplicative effect on your dps. This is only true for procs that have a fixed duration, most notably Ashtongue Talisman of Insight. MSD and Lightning Capacitor don't get any special benefit from haste at all. Increasing your haste rating does not increase the percentage increase of damage you get from MSD. Spell haste rating bear absolutely no relevance to the MSD or Lightning Capacitor, at all. This is because these effects only work in an instantaneous moment, either at the proc or on the next spell. No matter how fast you make your spells go, they're always getting the same percentage of benefit from the procs.

To demonstrate this, I wrote a quick and dirty simulator in php that measures the percentage gain in dps from the MSD. The first is applied to arcane missiles at 5 seconds, the second to arcane missiles at 4 seconds. Here's the code for review:

define( "lag", .1 );

function simulation( $set_dmg, $set_cast, $set_proc ) {
	for( $x = 0; $x <= 10000; $x++ ) {
		$time = 0;
		$damage = 0;
		
		while( $time <= 300 ) {
			if( rand( 1, 100 ) <= $set_proc )
				$cast = $set_cast / 2 + lag;
			else
				$cast = $set_cast + lag;
			
			if( $cast + $time > 300 )
				$add_damage = ($set_dmg / $cast) * (300 - $time);
			else
				$add_damage = $set_dmg;
			
			$damage += $add_damage;
			$time += $cast;
		}
		
		$results[] = $damage;
	}

	$total = round( (array_sum( $results ) / count( $results )) / 300 );

	return $total;
}

echo "5 sec.: " . round(simulation( 5000, 5, 26.49 ) / simulation( 5000, 5, 0 ), 3) . "x<br>";

echo "4 sec.: " . round(simulation( 5000, 4, 26.49 ) / simulation( 5000, 4, 0 ), 3) . "x<br>";

The results are as follows:

5 sec.: 1.147x
4 sec.: 1.145x

Funny story, spell haste actually reduces the effect of MSD by a very slight amount. This is due to the flat amount of latency added to each spell cast. My spreadsheet also calculates a 1.146x increase to arcane missiles from MSD using theorycrafted formulas, so the results coincide.

In short, further calculations have indicated that haste is an equally powerful stat for fire specs as it is for arcane. Not for ice though because the water elemental doesn't get any (as far as I'm aware).

ainav · 10/19/07, 9:19 PM

Hello there, I have readed the entire topic about 2.3 but I still dont see a viable calculation about 40/0/21 spec.
I know many of you do not think arc/frost is viable for raiding but I personally think that with a good amount of crit% and a 2nd frost mage for winterchill arc/frost can make some verry nice dmg.
In the end I know its prety hard to make calculations for arc/frost as trinket procs + clear cast are prety hard to calculate exactly but still, does someone have any calculation showing haste rating vs hit/spell dmg/crit in 2.3?
I am talking about t6 gear with Illidan staff / trinket and ashtongue trinket

• frmorrison · 10/19/07, 9:28 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

Not for ice though because the water elemental doesn't get any (as far as I'm aware).

Pets only scale with the master's stam, int, and +damage, and of course debuffs on the mob such as Winter's Chill and Misery.

Akron · 10/19/07, 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

A lot of people seem to be under the notion that with the CURRENT version of MSD, stacking haste will somehow have a multiplicative effect on your dps. This is only true for procs that have a fixed duration, most notably Ashtongue Talisman of Insight. MSD and Lightning Capacitor don't get any special benefit from haste at all. Increasing your haste rating does not increase the percentage increase of damage you get from MSD. Spell haste rating bear absolutely no relevance to the MSD or Lightning Capacitor, at all. This is because these effects only work in an instantaneous moment, either at the proc or on the next spell. No matter how fast you make your spells go, they're always getting the same percentage of benefit from the procs.

To demonstrate this, I wrote a quick and dirty simulator in php that measures the percentage gain in dps from the MSD. The first is applied to arcane missiles at 5 seconds, the second to arcane missiles at 4 seconds. Here's the code for review:

define( "lag", .1 );

function simulation( $set_dmg, $set_cast, $set_proc ) {
	for( $x = 0; $x <= 10000; $x++ ) {
		$time = 0;
		$damage = 0;
		
		while( $time <= 300 ) {
			if( rand( 1, 100 ) <= $set_proc )
				$cast = $set_cast / 2 + lag;
			else
				$cast = $set_cast + lag;
			
			if( $cast + $time > 300 )
				$add_damage = ($set_dmg / $cast) * (300 - $time);
			else
				$add_damage = $set_dmg;
			
			$damage += $add_damage;
			$time += $cast;
		}
		
		$results[] = $damage;
	}

	$total = round( (array_sum( $results ) / count( $results )) / 300 );

	return $total;
}

echo "5 sec.: " . round(simulation( 5000, 5, 26.49 ) / simulation( 5000, 5, 0 ), 3) . "x<br>";

echo "4 sec.: " . round(simulation( 5000, 4, 26.49 ) / simulation( 5000, 4, 0 ), 3) . "x<br>";

The results are as follows:

5 sec.: 1.147x
4 sec.: 1.145x

Funny story, spell haste actually reduces the effect of MSD by a very slight amount. This is due to the flat amount of latency added to each spell cast. My spreadsheet also calculates a 1.146x increase to arcane missiles from MSD using theorycrafted formulas, so the results coincide.

In short, further calculations have indicated that haste is an equally powerful stat for fire specs as it is for arcane. Not for ice though because the water elemental doesn't get any (as far as I'm aware).

Thanks for explanation, interesting observations

Still would like the definitive statement on Spell Haste with 2.3 Fire spec, though!

Cardnyal, thanks for very interesting comparisons. I do believe BT/Hyjal gear, most probably weapons, will be buffed anyway - T5 weapons were buffed and are pretty much as good as BT/Hyjal atm with the exception of the Azzinoth blades for rogues. Other Gear maybe not.

Searix · 10/20/07, 1:45 AM

The point however is what TLC does when more spells are cast. Of course MSD is a proc rate/2 % dps increase (~13%-15% based on exponential values for arcane missiles, or a raw ~2.5% dps increase for fireball). But casting faster exponentially increases the TLC's value, correct? (10 ppm to 12.5 for 5 missles vs. 4)

Darkmantle · 10/20/07, 1:58 AM

Originally Posted by Searix

The point however is what TLC does when more spells are cast. Of course MSD is a proc rate/2 % dps increase (~13%-15% based on exponential values for arcane missiles, or a raw ~2.5% dps increase for fireball). But casting faster exponentially increases the TLC's value, correct? (10 ppm to 12.5 for 5 missles vs. 4)

There is no exponential. Casting 4 times as fast will give you 4 times as many crits thats called linear. Casting faster will still have the same chance over the course of an arcane missiles to proc MSD so the number of MSD'd arcane missiles compared to the number without it won't change(unless there is so weird lag with the buff going off when you get really fast)

macbeet · 10/20/07, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by ainav

Hello there, I have readed the entire topic about 2.3 but I still dont see a viable calculation about 40/0/21 spec.
I know many of you do not think arc/frost is viable for raiding but I personally think that with a good amount of crit% and a 2nd frost mage for winterchill arc/frost can make some verry nice dmg.
In the end I know its prety hard to make calculations for arc/frost as trinket procs + clear cast are prety hard to calculate exactly but still, does someone have any calculation showing haste rating vs hit/spell dmg/crit in 2.3?
I am talking about t6 gear with Illidan staff / trinket and ashtongue trinket

I'm also going to break a lance for the 40/0/21 Specc, from a t5 perspective - there are a number of reasons why I think that this specc is underrated to its Competitors, deep Frost and Deep Fire, and has been my personal favorite for some time:

a) It is never the "bad" specc
Blizzard finds it funny to make the first two encounters in T5 dungeons fire and frost immune respectivly (well for a significant part), and beeing "deep specced" on one of them is a total fun killer. Of course I could respecc midevening, but hey, my fellow raidmembers will compensate for my lousy damage, so lets just suck... 40/0/21 on the other hand will do just fine, in fact it will reign sumpreme on hydross due to:

b) AoE damage
While the patchwork scenario leaves arcane/frost somewhat behind, there is hardy another way to maximize AoE damage, that is AE damage. I found myself performing superior on Hydross, Tidewalker, Kael'thas and Solarian just by a few seconds of fame. After all isn't the mage sometimes called the "King of AoE"? AoE situations are a significant part in WoW Raiding and even the scales, however i find it hard to model mathematically.

c) Mana Issues
Our guild only runs one shadowpriest...*sigh*... and while he is there all the time, he's never in my group, so I have to factor that in. That might not be a concern to many of you, who raid with a more favorable setup, but I consider it a huge bonus of arcane/frost to be able to put out an everlasting, reliable stream of dps.
It also increases my damage output on a non obvious basis: when running a deep specc on vashj, kael or karathress (i hate that hunter) I find myself forced to drink mana pots every 2 minutes, in arcane/frost thats never a problem, I just combine arcane might, trinkets and destruction potions into 15 seconds of awesomeness.
Also getting 5% of your mana back on a full resist happens far more often than one would think. And if you are left with too much mana at the end of fight? Drop the Arcane Blast bomb.

d) Precision
The bonus of arcane/frost is the ability to really boost dps at the right moment and thus is a great asset to the raid in that critical moment of the fight. Augmenting AE with arcane might when Kael's weapons spawn or raping Cthun during his short vulnerability is simply not matched by the other talent speccs. This is also hard to put into numbers on a spreadsheet.

A few posts back, there was a debate on the value of int. Back of the envelope calculation shows that int is slightly more worth 1/4 spelldamage and 1/4 crit in this specc (dont forget kings, gnome and talent) and that's a reasonable amount. It certainly does not make me socket Int Gems, but sometimes I choose an item with more Int, without sacrificing damage output, which is always nice.

Bottomline:
I feel that there is a gap between the spreadsheet mage and the wildlife mage, some factors that are very hard to quantify make arcane/frost a more desirable talent specc as numbercrunshing indicates.

[DRF]Solmyr · 10/20/07, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by macbeet

I'm also going to break a lance for the 40/0/21 Specc, from a t5 perspective - there are a number of reasons why I think that this specc is underrated to its Competitors, deep Frost and Deep Fire, and has been my personal favorite for some time:

a) It is never the "bad" specc
Blizzard finds it funny to make the first two encounters in T5 dungeons fire and frost immune respectivly (well for a significant part), and beeing "deep specced" on one of them is a total fun killer. Of course I could respecc midevening, but hey, my fellow raidmembers will compensate for my lousy damage, so lets just suck... 40/0/21 on the other hand will do just fine, in fact it will reign sumpreme on hydross due to:

b) AoE damage
While the patchwork scenario leaves arcane/frost somewhat behind, there is hardy another way to maximize AoE damage, that is AE damage. I found myself performing superior on Hydross, Tidewalker, Kael'thas and Solarian just by a few seconds of fame. After all isn't the mage sometimes called the "King of AoE"? AoE situations are a significant part in WoW Raiding and even the scales, however i find it hard to model mathematically.

c) Mana Issues
Our guild only runs one shadowpriest...*sigh*... and while he is there all the time, he's never in my group, so I have to factor that in. That might not be a concern to many of you, who raid with a more favorable setup, but I consider it a huge bonus of arcane/frost to be able to put out an everlasting, reliable stream of dps.
It also increases my damage output on a non obvious basis: when running a deep specc on vashj, kael or karathress (i hate that hunter) I find myself forced to drink mana pots every 2 minutes, in arcane/frost thats never a problem, I just combine arcane might, trinkets and destruction potions into 15 seconds of awesomeness.
Also getting 5% of your mana back on a full resist happens far more often than one would think. And if you are left with too much mana at the end of fight? Drop the Arcane Blast bomb.

d) Precision
The bonus of arcane/frost is the ability to really boost dps at the right moment and thus is a great asset to the raid in that critical moment of the fight. Augmenting AE with arcane might when Kael's weapons spawn or raping Cthun during his short vulnerability is simply not matched by the other talent speccs. This is also hard to put into numbers on a spreadsheet.

A few posts back, there was a debate on the value of int. Back of the envelope calculation shows that int is slightly more worth 1/4 spelldamage and 1/4 crit in this specc (dont forget kings, gnome and talent) and that's a reasonable amount. It certainly does not make me socket Int Gems, but sometimes I choose an item with more Int, without sacrificing damage output, which is always nice.

Bottomline:
I feel that there is a gap between the spreadsheet mage and the wildlife mage, some factors that are very hard to quantify make arcane/frost a more desirable talent specc as numbercrunshing indicates.

I think serious number crunching and example WWS reports are the norm here instead of laying out the "pros" and "cons" of a specific build. That said, counting on another mage to lay down WC usually doesn't get factored into TC calculations. Good luck with the build.

ainav · 10/20/07, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by [DRF]Solmyr

I think serious number crunching and example WWS reports are the norm here instead of laying out the "pros" and "cons" of a specific build. That said, counting on another mage to lay down WC usually doesn't get factored into TC calculations. Good luck with the build.

If I was good enough to do it on my own i wouldn't come here to ask help from ppl that are far more experianced in this then me.
I am not trying to convince someone that arc/frost is better then any specc I just want someone that can help me understand how will spell haste rating work vs the other stats, because for me making the calculations for that specc is close to imposible, I am just not good enough with those formulas.

macbeet · 10/21/07, 7:24 AM

Originally Posted by ainav

If I was good enough to do it on my own i wouldn't come here to ask help from ppl that are far more experianced in this then me.
I am not trying to convince someone that arc/frost is better then any specc I just want someone that can help me understand how will spell haste rating work vs the other stats, because for me making the calculations for that specc is close to imposible, I am just not good enough with those formulas.

I was just about to write the same - as many people pointed out, the deep specc are perfectly fine for raiding and I enjoy them a lot. My post was about pointing out where arcane/frost is not modelled in the calculations (that I have seen) and should be seen as a request/inspiration to people more capable in math.

Pintofbrew · 10/21/07, 10:07 AM

It has been noted before, Arcane-frost sub-performs in raid scenaria, even given a WC stacked by a fellow mage. The only way you can make 40.0.21 exceed x/x/43+ is by stacking absolutely massive crit. We're talking raid-buffed 32-35% -without- winter's chill.

If running your own numbers is something you can't do, and you're too inept to use Vontre's sheet yourself (though I somehow doubt you bothered to try, it's hardly harder than Adding and Subtracting. Many of course clearly prefer to feign incompetence), then you can try using Lhivera's Spreadsheet. Lhivera's Theorycraft Script

Insert your stats into the page, click your spec and read the result.

And one more time, I'll have to say this: This Forum is NOT for you to turn up "hi i'm wearing <armory link> and i couldn't find an answer to my question of should i spec X or Y. Can someone please make a full analysis of how I should play because I'm lazy". Theres 85+ pages in Mage TBC, there's 9 pages in Mage After 2.3 and theres only God knows how many pages in How Can Arcane Work. Read them before posting "heres my spec, help me plz mathz ppl".

frosty · 10/21/07, 10:33 AM

40/0/21 is not necessarily a Frost spec. Me and pretty much all the others mages on my guild used a 40/0/21 build like this during most of our progress time. It was never meant to be a spec for Frostbolt spamming, but an AB-build with Iceblock, that had a mana efficient side-spell. And AB made ~90% of the dmg.

◊ manly · 10/21/07, 12:38 PM

So in other words you're saying you used 3x AB AM scorch rotations without having put 3 points in emp AM ? Or went for 3x AB 2x frostbolt scorch? Or worse, 3x AB, 3x frostbolt and not use the free 1 second off AB?. Neither of those 3 rotations work well with 40/0/21. AB rotations weren't made/meant for 40/0/21. I don't mean it in a bad way but I fail to see any other way to play that spec than frostbolt spam-> AB spam, with AB spam being the only part it can do efficiently.

Cryic · 10/21/07, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

In short, further calculations have indicated that haste is an equally powerful stat for fire specs as it is for arcane. Not for ice though because the water elemental doesn't get any (as far as I'm aware).

I would assume that Haste is not as valuable for Deep fire as deep arcane (based on MSD / AM spam) since haste does nothing for Scorch. Depending on who is helping with the debuff, casting scorch can eat up a good amount of time.

On a side note, continued thanks for all your hard work Vontre!

frosty · 10/21/07, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by manly

So in other words you're saying you used 3x AB AM scorch rotations without having put 3 points in emp AM ? Or went for 3x AB 2x frostbolt scorch? Or worse, 3x AB, 3x frostbolt and not use the free 1 second off AB?. Neither of those 3 rotations work well with 40/0/21. AB rotations weren't made/meant for 40/0/21. I don't mean it in a bad way but I fail to see any other way to play that spec than frostbolt spam-> AB spam, with AB spam being the only part it can do efficiently.

I never considered using fixed rotations as an effective way to play an AB spec simply b/c of clearcasts. Having only 1/3 Emp AM is surely a dps loss when i clearcast into it, but Iceblock was just to invaluable and makes up for it in several bossfights.

Rouncer · 10/21/07, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by manly

So in other words you're saying you used 3x AB AM scorch rotations without having put 3 points in emp AM ? Or went for 3x AB 2x frostbolt scorch? Or worse, 3x AB, 3x frostbolt and not use the free 1 second off AB?. Neither of those 3 rotations work well with 40/0/21. AB rotations weren't made/meant for 40/0/21. I don't mean it in a bad way but I fail to see any other way to play that spec than frostbolt spam-> AB spam, with AB spam being the only part it can do efficiently.

The 3xAB 3xFrB rotation "should" work if they do manage to work out all the kinks in the new casting mechanism (3xFrB = 7.5s). It won't work at the 4T6 level though since Fire will greatly out damage it but at the 2T5 level it should be very competitive.

That all falls completely apart if the new casting system doesn't completely remove latency and we have yet to see Blizzard deliver on that particular promise.

ainav · 10/21/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

It has been noted before, Arcane-frost sub-performs in raid scenaria, even given a WC stacked by a fellow mage. The only way you can make 40.0.21 exceed x/x/43+ is by stacking absolutely massive crit. We're talking raid-buffed 32-35% -without- winter's chill.
If running your own numbers is something you can't do, and you're too inept to use Vontre's sheet yourself (though I somehow doubt you bothered to try, it's hardly harder than Adding and Subtracting. Many of course clearly prefer to feign incompetence), then you can try using Lhivera's Spreadsheet. Lhivera's Theorycraft Script

Insert your stats into the page, click your spec and read the result.

And one more time, I'll have to say this: This Forum is NOT for you to turn up "hi i'm wearing <armory link> and i couldn't find an answer to my question of should i spec X or Y. Can someone please make a full analysis of how I should play because I'm lazy". Theres 85+ pages in Mage TBC, there's 9 pages in Mage After 2.3 and theres only God knows how many pages in How Can Arcane Work. Read them before posting "heres my spec, help me plz mathz ppl".

Indeed i have 35%crit with raid buffs while having 1315 frost dmg unbuffed.
Now do not start to accuse me in lazyness just because I dont quite understand how things work for some more speccific builds and stats.

Even tho I am quite sure you dont exactly understand my problem, I am going to ignore your behaviour and continue to hope someone will make arc/frost stats comparison clear for me. ( NO Lhivera's Spreadsheet cannot be applied corectly to this build)

Setia · 10/21/07, 6:07 PM

I don't understand how having 32-35% crit with 40/0/21 is "stacking crit"...

You get +6% from talents (Arc Instability, Arc Potency), +3% from Molten Armor. You get over 600 int with Mind Mastery and raid buffs (=7,5 to 8% crit) (I get 660 int with my current full arcane setup, and I never tried to stack it). So, with zero crit rating, you have 17% crit already. Get 300 crit rating ( I don't think that's stacking), add Brilliant Wizard Oil, tada, 32% crit before WC. Get balanced top-notch gear, say, including 3 of the Haste pieces, and you'd get around 37-38% crit before WC.

I get around the same DPS in that gear as full frost with 100% WE or as frostbolt-spam 40/0/21 with WC up, and also around the same DPS with full frost with 0% WE or 40/0/21 without WC.

Myrdinn · 10/21/07, 7:05 PM

I compared 10/48/3 & 40/18/3 using Vontre's spreadsheet.
Running these numbers (my current gear actually) : 546 int, 1000 +dmg, 300 crit rating, 167 hit rating, 17 haste rating, molten armor, no totems, no bloodlust, no T5 bonus, RED enabled (I hope Vontre model it like CSD)

10/48/3
======
8:1 fb/scorch rotation : 1323 dps
AB spam : 1164 dps (1397 dps with 2 T5)
Time to oom : 12:06
1 dmg = 0.714 dps
1 crit rating = 0.490 dps
1 haste rating = 0.703 dps

40/18/3 (AP not included, dunno how to model it with Vontre's sheet over a full fight)
======
8:1 fb/scorch rotation : 1251 dps
AB spam : 1457 dps (1748 dps with 2 T5)
Time to oom : 12:41
1 dmg = 0.589 dps
1 crit rating = 0.570 dps
1 haste rating = 0.662 dps

I did not enable T5 bonus to keep AB "normal" instead of the improved version.
It looks like 10/48/3 is the winner but :
- AB spam dps with 40/18/3 is interesting (8:1 then finish mana with AB ?)
- Stats are well balanced between dmg/crit/haste with 40/18/3, small thing but still something not bad due to itemization principles.
- arcane AoE available with 40/18/3
- AP PoM Pyro on clearcast (<3 pvp ^^)

Bloodlusted combustion destru pot post-20% will still be pwnage but slight variations in arc/fire seems acceptable.

Faxmonkey · 10/21/07, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by ebbv

No offense but the original post seems slanted towards making Frost look better than it is.

I realize this post is a bit dated by now, but there are so many inaccuracies I feel obliged to respond.

I disagree. I don't know if this is the most valid way of looking at the issue, since most mages place *extremely* high value on which spec is the most dps, even if its by a marginal amount.

For example, it doesn't address some of Frost's biggest issues; Water Elemental being vulnerable to dying, if he dies your DPS is no longer competitive.

Untrue. The water elemental *rarely* dies early. Unlike most pets, he does not melee and *MOST* fights with AoE damage pulses are Frost/Nature damage -- both of which the water elemental is completely immune to. Yes there are a few fights with shadow damage that aren't going to be very water elemental friendly, but by and large the water elemental can survive the full 45 seconds on almost every fight.

Frost has weaker AoE DPS than either Arcane or Fire.

Blatantly false. Fire has awful AoE by way of comparison to frost. Fire does not have shatter. Virtually every AoE encounter involves mobs which are vulnerable to shatter. Frost *easily* dominates Fire in the AoE field -- especially if lightning capacitor is brought into the mix. Arcane, over-all, does have slightly better AoE than either frost/fire due to Arcane Potency being up about as often as Frost nova while simultaneously having an extra 6% crit and Spell Power.

Frost does not scale as well as Fire or Arcane due to Frostbolt's coefficient penalty for having a snare effect and insufficient talents to make up for that penalty when compared with the other 2 trees.

Untrue. Frost scales better than fire if you multiple the Water Elemental's 35% +damage coeffecient by it's uptime and add it into your frostbolt coeffecient. The amount of +damage you get per second as Frost is ever so slightly higher than Fire.

Personally I love the Water Elemental, and will do a little jig of joy the day Frost becomes competitive in terms of PvE DPS. But it seems like Blizzard intends for it to be our PvP tree, and thus makes no moves to bring it up to par.

Neither Fire nor frost, right now, is competitive with Arcane (AM Spam build). Once that's nerfed in 2.3, it'll be pretty much a 5% damage trade off for better Burst/survivability/threat management/AoE/PvP to go from Fire to Frost. Imo, a very competitive offer.

The Coefficient tax removal is happening to Fireball as well as Frostbolt. So it won't do enough to close the gap, even though it's more of a gain for Frostbolt in terms of Coefficient per Second.

Yes, I've been meaning to do some math on this, find out how much +damage you need to have before Frost passes fire. It's probably quite a bit, but its worth knowning.