Cardynal

ROUGHLY...that's 2670dps if Manly would have had the 22% more damage. You may have said it and i've missed it...but what do you pair IV up with? I'd assume you pop your trinkets after scorch is up and hold IV until sub 20%...then pop your trinkets again with IV. But still....this kind of parse makes me think that IV isn't modeled correctly and cannot be considered a simple 2% dps increase.

 

Vulkaire

Considering the WE is immune to the AoE fireballs, no.

 

Benegesserit

Anyone have a good idea on a rotation of Icy Veins and Troll Berserking when you have a shaman in your group for a frost mage? Stacking all 3 puts frostbolt under the GCD.

 

◊ manly

I feel bad to admit it, but as someone pointed out I had 33% ignite damage if I remember the number correctly. I should have had more damage than that. I think I just kept stacking a huge ignite at the end and it never ticked.

If anything, information about how to properly play cooldowns would be more akin to a full thread. I think instinctively most mages have a good idea, but they probably don't have refined their play enough to truly make cooldowns shine.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Cardynal

I just added it up and frankly I'm pissed about ignites even more now.

You lost 11737.4 damage of ignites rolling off at the end if i added it up correctly

04:27'00.388 Manly's Fireball crits Teron Gorefiend for 7949 Fire damage
04:27'03.378 Manly's Ignite dots Teron Gorefiend for 3006 Fire damage
04:27'03.949 Manly's Fireball dots Teron Gorefiend for 34 Fire damage
04:27'04.594 Manly's Fireball crits Teron Gorefiend for 7617 Fire damage
04:27'06.284 Manly's Fireball crits Teron Gorefiend for 7384 Fire damage
04:27'08.172 Manly's Fireball dots Teron Gorefiend for 34 Fire damage
04:27'08.376 Manly's Fireball crits Teron Gorefiend for 6703 Fire damage
04:27'08.879 Manly's Fire Blast crits Teron Gorefiend for 3667 Fire damage

The only ignite in there is 20% of the first fireball listed + previous crits..and you never see any other ignites.

 

Mojache

COE Malediction is an utter waste of a warlock. There is no way it is worth gimping a warlocks DPS by and easy 1000 for the extra 3% damage.

 

◊ manly

Well, I think this screwup could have been fixed in 2 ways. I thought I had near flawless play, but this just proves how ignorant I am. I think it shows that you want to avoid when possible to have your speed increasing cooldowns (or combustion) popped too close to the end of the fight. I did try to pop them at 19%, but I seem to recall I delayed a bit on its activation because of my mistimed drums.

I will do better next time.

And Mojache, I totally agree. There is the small exception that if your raid is like 1 lock/1spriest and 4-5 mages, then in that case you would want maledictioned COE. But that kind of raid should not really happen for the most part. I never expect maledictioned COE, and probable will never expect it either.

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Cardynal

I'm not sure where you got this 1000dps loss with 3 talent points.

 

◊ manly

Affliction locks scales very poorly with T6 gear, they are severely below destro locks. This is where the 1k lost DPS comes from.

Log on with different model:
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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Mojache

If you have 13% coe might as well go all out and throw 3 BM hunters, a boomkin and a couple PI priests in the raid. D: We use to run 1 malediction lock for COS because we would run 3 locks, 3 shadow priests and 2 arcane mages but even then it was deemed unworthy looking at the numbers.

 

Cardynal

Ah, now I see his logic...saying running 2 affliction locks would give you the dps loss, and I'd agree.

But by your own logic, having CoS mal is a dps loss as well.

3% dps increase on 5 classes would be safe to assume. 2sp's @ 1500 & 2 destro locks @ 2100 dps & 1 affliction @ 1500.

45dps x 3 + 63dps x 2 = 261

261 < 600

Granted 1 affliction lock does give stam for the tank and 5% less damage...but a full t6 should be fine without these.

Edit: Even at your crazy 8 people, it would be a dps loss =)

 

Moltavio-US-Lightbringer

I'm still wondering about a 1 deep frost, 2 arc/frost mage setup on a 3 mage raid. Would this total dps outdo 3 fire mage dps?

My guild sometimes goes with 3 mage 2 warlock so we DO get CoE.

Also Mojache, you are itemized specifically for AM spam w/ all that stacked haste. I haven't gotten to illidan just yet, so my itemization has alot of +crit on things instead of +haste, therefore 3 frostbolt 3 AB is my spell rotation. With deep frost mage on raid it's just frostbolt spam. I'd love to have your gear to be able to try out a spec like yours.

I am very hard pressed to give up arcane impact since my job for the guild is alot of arcane explosion spam.

Oh, 1 more thing, Mojache you may want to remove 1 point in arcane focus and put it in improved cs or arcane impact since you are 2.16% over the spell hit cap for arcane. Also why did you go permafrost/frostbite instead of ice shards? If blizzard is your spell of choice for AoE the permafrost seems not as good as ice shards.

 

Mojache

Blizzard is a control AE, the damage is the side effect. I don't use arcane explosion unless I'm either being lazy or don't mind dieing, sure you generate 40% less threat but you lose the 30% range advantage putting yourself next to the mobs. Blizzard is fantastic if you want to pile drive through hyjal easily and makes any fights with snarable/freezeable adds a complete joke.

As for Ice Shards, Blizzard can't crit. I think you meant piercing ice but yeah the extra damage isn't needed for the purposes of why I use blizzard.

 

macbeet

My post was by far not meant to be a: "What shall I specc!" or "Frost pwns fire, pew pew!".

I was looking for a model in line with: "If the boss interupts me for x seconds, about every y seconds, how will this affect different raiding speccs?" From the answers here this does not seem to exist.

 

Sancus

I'm going to have to say flat-out that I think that that WWS is nonsense, you have a merge with 5 players, when merging is known to create duplicate events and produce inaccurate results. So I personally would not believe any of the numbers in that parse as they are very likely to be simply wrong.

There's absolutely no good reason to be merging Teron parses like that, on top of including pets, which is also nonsense, makes the parse look extremely bad.

You only need 14 points in Frost to get Improved Blizzard, 0/47/14 is a perfectly reasonable alternative to 2/48/11 and has the exact same fire damage talents.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Mojache

You can say whatever you wish about about the parse but it's the same damage we see from SWstats and Assessment. We include pet data because it SHOULD be there, theres no reason to rip out the data from a boss fight because some people think it should be taken out and others don't. There is no tank and spank, lets count who can push the 3 key the hardest fight in BT/Hyjal and when you start editing parses to exclude part of a boss to get the "real" numbers well then what is real?

That log is exactly what I said it was, just a log to show 40/0/21 DPS after the patch with 15 leatherworkers in the raid and a darkmoon faire buff. You should never ever take anyones opinion on any of these forums and use it as your argument until you have tested it for yourself anyway.

 

Sancus

It's not anyone else's opinion, it's my opinion, I've seen too many nonsense merged WWSes, and since there is no reason for it especially on Teron, there's no sense in doing it. I don't see any reason to take such parses seriously, because it's like you've gone to every effort to make your parse look wrong.

Why would you do this when you're trying to use it as an epeen meter? Instead you should be trying to minimize factors that will cause people to point out that it's probably inaccurate, not maximize them as you have done.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Vonwen

Well maybe you can explain me then how my ele has been oneshotted 2 seconds after being popped ? I admit it happens very rarely on Illidan, but there are many other bosses where it's vulnerable to say the least.

 

Roywyn

On Illidan phase 2, pets are not hit by the AoE fireballs. At least WE pets are not hit.

Yes, my water elemental got oneshotted right after the summon so many times, it's beyond silly.
But on Illidan, WEs are actually a pretty reliable source of damage. I don't use them often though, trying to save the cooldown for emergencies when a need a second nova.

 

Copernicus

Water Elemental does get destroyed by the blue lasers and fire trails. Depending on positioning, you might need to spin around to place the Water Elemental inside the grate.

 

Mojache

Trust me, theres always cry babies to whine. Theres nothing wrong with MY numbers, this isn't a thread to chit chat about raid DPS on teron gorefiend. I was only showing the highest potential of arcane missiles that I can do as my current gear level with AM, which is close to optimal. You are crying about how someone in my guild merges pet data and data of another raid member, thats nice you personally feel all that should be left out besides the core numbers but then I'm sure you would cry that the DPS was of course being "fake" because we all went out and got the DMF buff, oh and that we run 15 leather workings in a raid, oh geeze and we used different amounts of healers then most people! Man were such cheaters! God I had a shaman and a shadow priest! So many hacks!

Sorry I didn't see the "rules" to posting WWS logs anywhere, so please kindly stop crying about something that doesn't matter for the point that was being brought up. WWS isn't for showing off, it's for maximizing my character. If I wanted to show off, I'd stack a raid and post on the WoW mage forums, not here. Sorry if I'm a bit harsh, but you are being fairly rude and unhelpful.


@Manly, I currently have every possible haste item in the game from craftables to all the badge rewards and even the healer cloak off ilidan. I have been reading about the rolling ignites and wanted to know if its possible with max haste items and hero, could you go below 2 seconds on fireball, without trinket poping. Just static haste.

 

Vonwen

Well, maybe the WE can be targetted and hit by the fireball, but won't suffer the aoe damage then ?

 

edwin

40/0/21 is a quite good talent for the raids, which have just entered the black temple. As I know, this talent is very popular for Chinese raids because the Chinese TBC started at september 2007.
1 deep frost + 2-3 arcane/frost ---- cheap and efficient, frost bolt has no partial res, 2t5 + 2t4 already works well. I have enough evidence to prove the ghost hit of frostbolt on raid bosses before 2.3.2, but now I haven't enough data yet, in my opinion from recently raids, it is still alive
40/0/21 is restricted at Teron, but competitive at Supremus (I achieved 1300dps many times with t4+t5), Mother and Illidan. I am quite sure that, at item level of T5, deap frost has little chance to beat arcane/frost if they raid together.

1 question from me: is penetration really useless in pve?
I have compared many WWS data sheets with and without CoE, the difference is not obvious even against those bosses with high res (Supremus, Rage winterchill, Council), I have teseted Council fight with 10 and 80 penetration several times, the difference of my frostbolt miss rate was about 5%.

 

◊ manly

First, its not possible to do fireballs casting fast enough that without cooldowns (yes, even drums on top of that) that you can do rolling ignites. Besides, if you read the thread you would have seen that the goal is not sub 2s fireballs, but I digress. Maybe with ashtongue trinket 100% uptime and perma-drums. In any case you're gunning for ~785 passive haste rating.

Something else to note. If you use WWS as a way to max your dps, then you definately don't want to merge data across players. First, there is no reason at all to do it, second you just increase the odds that your parses are unreliable as source of data. I have seen many merged logs with things such as 2 COD within the same minute (ie: not possible in game), or players gaining one or 2 extra fireballs. If you want to make a fun test, merge logs with players with extreme latency. And merge logs with players using non-english clients. You will be very surprised at the results. It has, it can and does increase player dps by numbers that have no correlation with your actual performance.

But regardless of whether or not you believe me, I challenge you to give me a single reason to merge logs. I know you won't be able to find one.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

drowsy

I was wondering how much thought people have to put into the problem of casts mysteriously getting interrupted when changing targets. I come across this problem frequently when I farm warlocks at legion hold and may have noticed a pattern to it.

It appeared as though every time I release a fireball, change targets, and start a new cast before it lands, the new cast would consistently be interrupted every time the first one was a killing blow. It would not happen if the preceding cast was a scorch, nor if a killing blow came from an ignite midcast, so it could possibly be something unique to airborne spells. It also would occur on both crits and non-crits, so I believe interactions with ignite and such are not an issue, though I can't rule out procs of things like Mark of Defiance or Darkmoon Card: Crusade. I have yet to see an interrupt happen changing targets on nonkilling blows, which I tend to do frequently at legion hold when trinketed.

Do we know if this is an issue for other ranged classes, or has anyone seen a counterexample or other situations where this happens? I plan to monitor this more closely in groups, to see if the killing blow is consistently the issue when there are other players involved.