I can't re-iterate this point enough: Who cares about trash? Theorycrafting the bejezus out of 1% RDPS on a boss might hold merit and value but starting to theorize which of the trash has so many hitpoints as to mandate CoE over CoA over no curse at all to maxinize RDPS stinks a little too obsessively OTT in my book.
It's not that I care about trash much, was just trying to show how pointless it is to be stubborn and not cast CoE. Using the logic of my post it's easy to realize that on bosses his warlocks should always be using CoE...
Some people feel the "every man for himself" nature of some raid groups. Were also familiar with some peoples need to look at their own damage/dps output, to justify either to themselve or other people in the group of their necessity.
Maybe you should approach the situation by mentioning that the whole purpose of a raid group is to down a boss...if there are things that anyone can do to make the entire account from Trash -> Boss easier...it should be done.
We're in SSC and I've had some people come back from a pre-BC WoW break who still thought the night's overall damage was indicative of his performance. He went around very smug for a while, and it was at that point where I begin to link directly to the boss WWS parses (unfortunately we tend to log trash) and people quickly got the picture without me having to say anything directly. It makes me wonder a lot about the old MC days and how much information we didn't have available to us.
I'm in a unique position as a raid leader to have control over those scenarios and thus I could drive the point home, but if anyone is in a situation where your raid leader doesn't understand as such, I can't imagine the quality of raiding is very high to begin with. Sorry for going a bit off topic there.
I can't re-iterate this point enough: Who cares about trash? Theorycrafting the bejezus out of 1% RDPS on a boss might hold merit and value but starting to theorize which of the trash has so many hitpoints as to mandate CoE over CoA over no curse at all to maxinize RDPS stinks a little too obsessively OTT in my book.
While trash can be cleared with half the raid afk or not putting out good dps you could say the same about most of the bosses. You would theorize how to kill a boss 10% quicker and then say trash is worth nothing at all, however you might note that in a typical BT clear 2/3 of the entire raid damage is done on trash. While I wouldn't necessarily condone complete min / max thinking on trash dps - a little forethought isn't a bad idea. It makes the raid go a lot faster.
If we want to min/max our trash dps, before we can even start of the tc of debuffs and such, we need to contain the afk's down to 1-2 people at the most. If people go afk, any numbers ran are now off. So its a moot point to continue doing anything of the sort.
Until we have trash mobs than resemble the difficulty of the AQ40 Anubisath Defenders, don't even start.
While trash can be cleared with half the raid afk or not putting out good dps you could say the same about most of the bosses. You would theorize how to kill a boss 10% quicker and then say trash is worth nothing at all, however you might note that in a typical BT clear 2/3 of the entire raid damage is done on trash. While I wouldn't necessarily condone complete min / max thinking on trash dps - a little forethought isn't a bad idea. It makes the raid go a lot faster.
Yea, I made a post earlier arguing that arcane is actually superior to fire (For the weekly BT/Hyjal clear (Not progression raids).
What is the definition of superior? Is it trash dmg or boss dmg, maybe total dmg. Or perhaps how long you spend clearing the instance?
If you have a raid with 3 arcane mages you will basically clear hyjal 15-25 minutes quicker (And BT 10-20 mins) than if you had 3 fire mages. Replace your 3 locks with another 3 arcane mages (For a total of 6) and you will probably reduce your clear time of Hyjal to around 60-70 minutes or shorter.
The last few weeks we have stopped sheeping trash mobs in BT, but instead we AOE them down (With some exceptions).
However, even though you will clear the instance significantly faster by going arcane, the mere thought of reducing our class to "king of trash" is repelling (To 95%+ of mages). Ppl want to pwn and top dmg meters on bosses and I guess thats understandable.
Yea, I made a post earlier arguing that arcane is actually superior to fire (For the weekly BT/Hyjal clear (Not progression raids).
What is the definition of superior? Is it trash dmg or boss dmg, maybe total dmg. Or perhaps how long you spend clearing the instance?
If you have a raid with 3 arcane mages you will basically clear hyjal 15-25 minutes quicker (And BT 10-20 mins) than if you had 3 fire mages. Replace your 3 locks with another 3 arcane mages (For a total of 6) and you will probably reduce your clear time of Hyjal to around 60-70 minutes or shorter.
The last few weeks we have stopped sheeping trash mobs in BT, but instead we AOE them down (With some exceptions).
However, even though you will clear the instance significantly faster by going arcane, the mere thought of reducing our class to "king of trash" is repelling (To 95%+ of mages). Ppl want to pwn and top dmg meters on bosses and I guess thats understandable.
I don't quite agree with you. You are implying that bringing arcane mages in place of warlocks will result in faster clear. However, I believe that destro warlocks are superior for clearing thrash, simply because they can sustain their Shadow Bolt spam with less downtime compared to Arcane Blast spamming. With T6 gears, Shadow Bolt and SoC are superior than Arcane Blast and Arcane Explosion, with the added benefit of lesser downtime from Life tap.
In fact, I even feel that bringing anything more than 1 mage is a waste if you don't intend to sheep anything. Warlocks are straight out superior for most BT/Hyjal bosses.
I don't quite agree with you. You are implying that bringing arcane mages in place of warlocks will result in faster clear. However, I believe that destro warlocks are superior for clearing thrash, simply because they can sustain their Shadow Bolt spam with less downtime compared to Arcane Blast spamming. With T6 gears, Shadow Bolt and SoC are superior than Arcane Blast and Arcane Explosion, with the added benefit of lesser downtime from Life tap.
In fact, I even feel that bringing anything more than 1 mage is a waste if you don't intend to sheep anything. Warlocks are straight out superior for most BT/Hyjal bosses.
The problem is we don't have threat reduction on SoC.
The problem is we don't have threat reduction on SoC.
Its not like you really need it on trash clears. Our warlocks "tank" aoe trash. Healers just spam heal on them and paladins ready to cast bop. I'd also call bs that bringing arcane mages can signigicatly faster your clears. Especially when you already clear all t6 content in less than 2 days.
Does anyone else get the impression this thread is getting derailed? I somehow feel that while discussing the perfect trash-clearing setup is technicaly Theorycraft, it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Somewhat like the rather abhorent "king of trash" title Andersnordic noted above.
Does anyone else get the impression this thread is getting derailed? I somehow feel that while discussing the perfect trash-clearing setup is technicaly Theorycraft, it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. Somewhat like the rather abhorent "king of trash" title Andersnordic noted above.
A bit offtopic, but probably its because we are bored and there isn't anything significant that we want to discuss. its not just this thread, look at other class threads. We really need some more 2.4 info.
Assuming tank has 10k threat on a target for the ease of math,
Warlocks can do:
((10,000 x 1.3) x 1.3) = 16900 damage before pulling aggro
Mages can do:
(((10,000 x 1.1) x 1.3) x 1.4) = 20020 damage before pulling aggro.
Even without threat reduction, warlocks can put out fairly similar damage simply due to the 30% ranged buffer.
Personally I'd rather have Seed and have the range to react and Soulshatter before getting killed. Often times GCD and Iceblock don't get along too well.
What gems are people using in T6 level gear these days when spinels aren't available? We've had a spinel drought and I'm needing to gem a lot of gear defaulted to this character, so I'm been poking around. It seems like it comes down to [Potent Pyrestone] or [Living Ruby], but in the case of the former there are some items with +4 dmg bonuses ([Belt of Blasting], [Mantle of the Tempest] that make it come out to effectively +8 damage per socket, which is obviously preferable to a ruby.
I've poked around at Mage armories and it seems like a lot of people still have [Crimson Spinel]s due to their gear being gemmed for [Mystical Skyfire Diamond] in the past. This is probably part of the reason it's hard to get a bearing on what people are using now that [Chaotic Skyfire Diamond] is the new Mage meta. Pardon my ignorance, getting back into Mage from SPriest is taking a bit of catching up.
6 dmg 5 crit is definitely better than 9 dmg... I woudln't count socket bonus too quickly though as it means you have to use a purple gem too, which in itself is a 6 dmg loss for a 4 dmg gain on top of the smaller loss from the orange gem. Still in just about any case a good combo of non-spinel epic quality gems will beat your best option of blue quality gems, socket bonuses or not.
To clarify, I was meaning to say +5 crit / +6 dmg is preferable to rubies, but especially so in the case of bonuses.
Originally Posted by galzohar
I woudln't count socket bonus too quickly though as it means you have to use a purple gem too, which in itself is a 6 dmg loss for a 4 dmg gain on top of the smaller loss from the orange gem.
I'm not sure what you mean here. In the case of those two I linked if you use two Pyrestones you're sitting at +10 crit, +12 damage. If you use a Pyrestone and Amethyst it's +5 crit, +16 (+12+4) damage, +7 stam. Are you referring to deciding between 5 crit vs 4 damage?
what I meant is that any non-dumb combo of epic gems will beat any combo of non-epic gems. In your example, 5 crit and 4 dmg is pretty close and the better choice actually depends on your gear, as I've seen on spreadsheets your gear could change the spell dmg equivalent of crit rating anywhere between 0.75-0.83 on gear setups I was looking at, and might even fluctuate more with other setups. Bottom line is both double pyrestones and pyrestone+amethyst are close, and both are quite better than any non-epic gem combination.
Yea, I made a post earlier arguing that arcane is actually superior to fire (For the weekly BT/Hyjal clear (Not progression raids).
What is the definition of superior? Is it trash dmg or boss dmg, maybe total dmg. Or perhaps how long you spend clearing the instance?
If you have a raid with 3 arcane mages you will basically clear hyjal 15-25 minutes quicker (And BT 10-20 mins) than if you had 3 fire mages. Replace your 3 locks with another 3 arcane mages (For a total of 6) and you will probably reduce your clear time of Hyjal to around 60-70 minutes or shorter.
The last few weeks we have stopped sheeping trash mobs in BT, but instead we AOE them down (With some exceptions).
However, even though you will clear the instance significantly faster by going arcane, the mere thought of reducing our class to "king of trash" is repelling (To 95%+ of mages). Ppl want to pwn and top dmg meters on bosses and I guess thats understandable.
I disagree. I've played BT/MH as all specs (arcane during 2.2).
In Hyjal, arcane hits the AE limit so fast you're not doing significantly more damage than a fire/frost mage.
In BT, even using the more mana efficient frost/fire builds, I'm still spending a lot of time drinking while other classes are already beating up on the next pull. Arcane really only rules on trash if your guild pulls slowly. Otherwise, you'll waste a lot of dps time drinking.
Rogues and Warriors with the necro buff stacked do such ridiculous amounts of damage on the trash that it seems like shitting up our thread with "WUT SPEC IS BEST FOR TRASH" seems all sorts of stupid.
Glad people just skip over my posts when dealing to these retarded topics of discussion.
Have we gotten to the point where we've seen that boss's no longer matter, and it comes down to trash dps performances? Give me a break, we still have two specs floating out there that are needing a little testing, 40/0/21 on 5min+ fights, and 0/40/21 on 5 minute fights.
Maybe the current instances are new, challenging, fascinating to you. If thats the case, thats cool, enjoy.
But some ppl have farmed these instances quite hard, and actually like to shorten the time spent there as much as possible (While waiting for Sunwell). Considering trash is 80% of the instance, speccing for "speed clear" can save your guild a considerable amount of time.
So simply labeling arguments relating to speeding up clears as "retarded" will only be viewed as a narrow minded comment.
The essence of the issue is that they made BT/Hyjal too easy. And Sunwell will hopefully change that.
Glad people just skip over my posts when dealing to these retarded topics of discussion.
Have we gotten to the point where we've seen that boss's no longer matter, and it comes down to trash dps performances? Give me a break, we still have two specs floating out there that are needing a little testing, 40/0/21 on 5min+ fights, and 0/40/21 on 5 minute fights.
I don't think spec'ing for trash dps was the point of the last page of posts - You should obviously spec for maximizing your Boss dps. The issue was one of warlocks putting coe on trash mobs. It doesn't take much to see that it is almost always beneficial to raid dps - you can argue about people being afk however that's not a variable in TC - people shouldn't be going afk.
With that said, I believe 0/40/21 modeling has shown to be superior dps on sub 3 minute fights.
I guarantee that trash clear time is more related to attention of the raid and afk people and not debuffs of the mobs. That has and always will be the determining factor on trash clears. Until you get a 100% non-afk raid, with everyone giving 100% attention and effort on trash, making this silly discussions is pointless. You can clear content for a year and still have these issues, it's not worth the energy to type out whats better for trash clearing.
I guarantee that trash clear time is more related to attention of the raid and afk people and not debuffs of the mobs. That has and always will be the determining factor on trash clears. Until you get a 100% non-afk raid, with everyone giving 100% attention and effort on trash, making this silly discussions is pointless. You can clear content for a year and still have these issues, it's not worth the energy to type out whats better for trash clearing.
The same exact argument can be made with respect to boss dps - A mage who is better and has a higher dps uptime will likely out dps a better itemized / specialized mage, yet we theorycraft anyways because there's absolutely no reason not to perform as best as possible all the time. I don't know how your guild works but an afk raid is not a productive or entertaining raid.
01/27/08, 6:37 AM
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