Chance for other people to die and thus increase molten fury effect is probably just as much as your chance to die and get absolutely nothing from molten fury. On average the value of molten fury is probably the same as if nobody died. And yes it matters as just like you say you can get a first kill with people dead if you do enough damage and they did enough damage before they died, so can they get a kill if you died early if you did enough damage. So I would say the "other people died so molten fury is better" gets pretty much balanced by the "I died so molten fury sucked" and can be safely ignored.
Looking at kill times of fights that had been on farm for a very long time as a basis for progression theorycraft is definitely pointless. I doubt new instances will have fights that will be finished within 3-5 minutes on "first kills", just like a guild's first kill of void reaver takes nearly the whole 10 minutes for example... Of course it's nice to get fights farmed faster but it's not really something that should be focused on.
No Faire, no flasks. 2 minute 40 seconds, 32 seconds pr 20% on average (flaw in my initial post, 2min20 sec kill would be 28 sec pr 20%)
The point wasn't much to set a baseline assumption, the question was "At what point would double Icey Veins be superior to Molten Fury". We can agree that the faster a boss dies the shorter the execute 'uptime' would be and certainly there must be a point where 20 extra seconds of Icey Veins would outshine the +20% dmg in wounded phase. Is it clearer now what I'm asking?
Edit: in reply to Galzohar, the point would be to optimize, there's alot of raider's who's been killing Illidan for 20+ weeks now, the only thing fun to do in bt/hyjal is to try and beat your own and others records. If I could get 50-60 more dps by switching to 40 21 over the normal fire builds on short fights, I'd do it.
We don't know what new instances bring, there could be a more difficult RoS encounter where the "last" phase is basically nuke as hard as you can before the boss kills the raid, this would probably favor double icey veins. There could be a Murmur/Vael type encounter where the boss is at 20%-30% and Molten Fury would be absurdly good. If this was ever the case it'd be great information to know at what point 40 fire 21 frost would outshine x arcane 4x fire 11 frost.
It also helps a lot on Council due to the resistance aura. Have a heck of a time getting our locks to use it there due to one mage taning and leaving only 1-2 dpsing, but without it I usually see around 15% partial resists. With CoE it is usually around 5%, so CoE is a 20% boost on that fight. That makes it viable with only one mage dpsing.
You can also combine this with the fact that it's viable to CoD Zerevor if you really want to. Or you can do it on Malande.....but I have personal experience with that being a bad idea.
I don't get why you're arguing pro- dual Icy Veins and contra Molten Fury. Instinctively I want to beat that notion with a stick, but honestly I just want to ask.
Assuming for a second an occasion arises that 21 frost is superior, why would you forsake Molten Fury in favour of quite shit talents like Play with Fire and Pyromania? Why not select your 40 fires from Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft instead? Ditch 1 measly % overall dmg and 1 moderately useless pyromaniac point for the Molten fury if you must, but for the sake of God don't lose fire's single most powerful buff in favour of Cold Snap.
Molten fury is 4% dps increase, or if your last 20% are actually 3/4 of any other 20% of the fight, 3% extra damage. 1.5% damage per talent point, which is better than the other fire talents you could drop. Not to mention molten fury multiplies the effect of your doubled icy veins if the last 20% last over 20 seconds (preferably 40 of course).
I'm not arguing pro dual icey veins. I was merely asking if there was a point in which it'd be preferable over molten fury. I suppose it could be entirely pointless granted you can get both, but surely there must be a point where the execute phase is so short that even 1 or 2% extra crit would be preferable.
Molten fury is 4% dps increase, or if your last 20% are actually 3/4 of any other 20% of the fight, 3% extra damage. 1.5% damage per talent point, which is better than the other fire talents you could drop. Not to mention molten fury multiplies the effect of your doubled icy veins if the last 20% last over 20 seconds (preferably 40 of course).
I would say MF is worth more than 4% dps increase when you stack all of your cooldowns during this 20%.
And why would you not want MF in a 0/40/21 build. Just drop 2% crit since you're not going to get 4% damage out of 2% crit.
I'm not arguing pro dual icey veins. I was merely asking if there was a point in which it'd be preferable over molten fury. I suppose it could be entirely pointless granted you can get both, but surely there must be a point where the execute phase is so short that even 1 or 2% extra crit would be preferable.
How can you argue a 1-2% crit increase can ever be better than a 20% increase 20% of the time, particularly at this day and age when we have more cooldowns than we ever had before?
Did you not notice the quotes of 7k DPS with all CDs on in molten fury range? Which concievable scenario can you envisage where 1 point in MF will ever be inferior to 1 in Pyromaniac? Even with an absolutely statistically flat model assuming 0 cooldowns at any point, 1 point in MF will be 2% increase overall where as 1% crit will always be less than 1% increase overall.
Unless I completely fail at maths there is no concievable scenario in which the loss of MF will be beneficial to gain any single talent in any of the mage trees. Not even AP will offset MF as far as I'm concerned.
Speaking of which, has anyone else had wet dreams thinking of WotLK specs with 33/38/0 spell power, arcane power, molten fury and 3/5 emp. Fball? Or perhaps 33/35/3 with a view to Ap-AB spam in MF range... Mmm... Chocolate.
Again I'm not arguing it, I'm asking for the 5th something time now if it'd be possible to model that high enough raid dps would lower the benefit of MF to such a degree that 2% crit could be better. It's all about how raiddps is paced, MF is not 20% dmg 20% of the time, as CLEARLY the last 20% are faster than the first 20%. It's 20% more dmg the last 20% of the boss health, this could easily be less than 10% of the time it takes the boss to die, it could be more, it could be less.
How can you argue a 1-2% crit increase can ever be better than a 20% increase 20% of the time, particularly at this day and age when we have more cooldowns than we ever had before?
...
Unless I completely fail at maths there is no concievable scenario in which the loss of MF will be beneficial to gain any single talent in any of the mage trees. Not even AP will offset MF as far as I'm concerned.
Well, that's of course assuming that the last 20% of a boss will take 20% of the total time. Which is quite often not the case imho. Marginal maybe for this argument, but molten fury really doesn't bring +20% damage for 20% of the fight. You'll have other mages with MF, warriors executing, people popping CD's all over the place for that last 20%.
One HUGE improvement in WWS would be some graphical display of the cumulative damage done/received/heals etc on a timeline. That would be pretty insightfull stuff.
Re-read my post man, it's already explained - even if you reap through the last 20% 33% faster than normal molten fury is still 3% DPS increase which is already better than your other talents, before even adding up the fact it multiplies all cooldowns used during that part of the fight. Molten fury > 1.5% dmg per talent point. Other talents you could drop are <1% dmg per talent point. I just don't see any kind of raid dps levels that can change that.
Any chance someone has a write-up reguarding mages who are not tailors,and gear choices.Our progression is up to lady Vash.Any help in this would be great.Thx
Well, that's of course assuming that the last 20% of a boss will take 20% of the total time. Which is quite often not the case imho. Marginal maybe for this argument, but molten fury really doesn't bring +20% damage for 20% of the fight. You'll have other mages with MF, warriors executing, people popping CD's all over the place for that last 20%.
One HUGE improvement in WWS would be some graphical display of the cumulative damage done/received/heals etc on a timeline. That would be pretty insightfull stuff.
As long as it lasts 20 seconds...it's still a HUGE dps increase. I did the math a bit ago and my fireballs are dropping down to 1.58 seconds during 20 seconds of that 20%. So lets assume each 20% takes 30 seconds and the last 20% takes 20 seconds. That's a 2 minute 20 second fight. My cast time during normal casting would be 2.84 seconds for 100% - 20%
So that's 42.25 fireballs during this period or 10.56 fireballs per 20%. (This is assuming my 91 passive haste rating…a 2.84 second cast time)
Now once you pop all your haste...you get 12.66 fireballs off in 20 seconds....or 54.91 fireballs off in a 140 second fight. So 23% of your fireballs actually see the 20% dmg increase from MF...which means you get at the very least a 4.6% dps increase from MF. However...this doesn't include popping a damage trinket, destruction pot, or flame cap.
Just popping these 3 things seem give roughly a 20% dps increase according to Lhivera's calculator. 20% of 20% is 4%. So I'm estimating that MF in this scenario is giving roughly an 8.6% dps increase. Granted these are some rough calculations but I would like to see what other people have to say about it.
This doesn't take into account combustion...which I’m not even going to touch.
Granted this is a best-case scenario, you still get the idea
In 2.4, Spell Haste will reduce the global cool down on spells, down to a minimum of 1 second. It won't apply to melee and ranged abilities though however.
Does the news about in 2.4 spell haste dropping the gcd to a min of 1 second do anything about the viability of Arcane Blast? I know the mana costs would just be insanely out of this world, but its possible 1.1-1.3 second arcane blasts could be some insane dps.
There are many implications to this change. Depending on what exactly they mean, it could mean a major revamp for mage AOE dps.
Does this means bloodlust allows sub 1.5s AE spam ? Its not too obvious reading it. Or does it mean only my haste rating will lower my GCD by bloodlust/icy veins/berserking won't ?
Otherwise, it affects very slightly - if at all - fire spec. Frost spec can now use bloodlust + icy veins, a very welcome change I suppose. Arcane can now make a meaningful use out of spell haste, which is also welcome. As per the implications, I doubt it would affect numbers any kind of noticeably for anything else than AOE.
edit: and also allow AB spam to be more worthwhile.
Last edited by manly : 02/01/08 at 4:05 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
No, simply because scorch spam scales far far worse than fireball. It would allow to use procs much better, but the problem is that the scorch dps is just too bad to make efficient use of. I don't recall the numbers offhand, but I do recall its rather staggering and definately not a trivial amount.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
As a fire mage who generally only raids with one other mage, I really like this change. I've always liked haste from a theorycrafting aspect, but using it in practice has always caused a bit of a shitty feeling because you know that every time you are casting a scorch, you are wearing some useless gear / stats.
Or hell, I can't count the number of times a shaman has dropped heroism only to notice scorch debuff just feel off. Banging out 5 scorches while hasted with heroism is a sickening feeling.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Since arcane has issues competing even without any haste, I don't see this change as the "savior of arcane". It'll definitely make AOEing different and make you feel less stupid (but still kinda stupid as it's still a waste) when you need to scorch during BL/hero.
On a side note, arcane mages will be able to hit new records of how fast they can go oom.
Assuming icy veins will now effect the global cooldown as well - I can't see flamestrike ever being good - Even with 3 points in imp flamestrike, where range is a non issue, aside from double dipping a combustion stack assuming you have blastwave or dragons breath.
Assuming icy veins will now effect the global cooldown as well - I can't see flamestrike ever being good - Even with 3 points in imp flamestrike, where range is a non issue, aside from double dipping a combustion stack assuming you have blastwave or dragons breath.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
02/01/08, 10:00 AM
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