[Melee/Hunters] 2.3 Patch Notes - Weapon skill to Expertise - Page 4

Machinator · 10/13/07, 8:44 AM

Wasnt the Weapon Skill rating 3.9 rating = 1 Skill? Also before there was no such thing as 1/2 a point of Weapon Skill, 4 rating was 1 skill and 7 rating was still 1 skill. I havent been on the PTR yet but is there a way to confirm that it does/doesn't do that?

sp00n · 10/13/07, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Machinator

Wasnt the Weapon Skill rating 3.9 rating = 1 Skill? Also before there was no such thing as 1/2 a point of Weapon Skill, 4 rating was 1 skill and 7 rating was still 1 skill. I havent been on the PTR yet but is there a way to confirm that it does/doesn't do that?

It still working like this. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] have 10 expertise rating, giving 2 expertise in the character sheet.

RDXerro · 10/13/07, 10:34 AM

I've seen it stated that the hit cap was raised for melee. Is it still the same for Hunters and if not anyone able to tell me the new % to aim for?

Minka · 10/13/07, 10:50 AM

363 Hit Raiting are needed in 2.3, which is totally crap, this new stat is just fucking up, you can't get hit cap, only shows that Blizzard are all Idiots, changing everything without thinking.

Trazhenko · 10/13/07, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by RDXerro

I've seen it stated that the hit cap was raised for melee. Is it still the same for Hunters and if not anyone able to tell me the new % to aim for?

The hit cap itself (that is, your base chance to miss a mob before gear, talents, etc) didn't change.

+skill currently grants +hit, but it's being replaced by the expertise stat, which does not. If you currently use +skill in any form to help reduce your miss chance, then you will need more hit rating to have the same miss chance after the patch.

Since your profile says you're a Night Elf, and I can't think of too many level 70 +gun or +bow items, I'm guessing you probably won't see a change in your missrate.

• Vulajin · 10/13/07, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Minka

363 Hit Raiting are needed in 2.3, which is totally crap, this new stat is just fucking up, you can't get hit cap, only shows that Blizzard are all Idiots, changing everything without thinking.

Mindless whining does not become this forum. The fact of the matter is that you never needed to be hit-capped per se, and you still don't need to be hit capped. Frankly, I'm happy that the hit cap is increasing, because I was very tired of having to re-socket my gear every time I got a new piece so that I didn't overshoot the cap.

Additionally, they're introducing a +20 hit/+20 spirit food in the patch that you can eat for raids to reduce your effective hit cap on gear to 343. That's fine by me, given that we'll be able to eliminate nearly all dodges just by having Weapon Expertise and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths].

boysailor · 10/13/07, 12:44 PM

Regarding the hit cap, I believe Cutesybutton from Deathwish proves that reaching (getting close to at least) the hit cap isn't impossible. And it doesn't have to gimp the rest of your stats either (not that much at least).

The World of Warcraft Armory (Armory link to Cutesybutton)

RDXerro · 10/13/07, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

The hit cap itself (that is, your base chance to miss a mob before gear, talents, etc) didn't change.

+skill currently grants +hit, but it's being replaced by the expertise stat, which does not. If you currently use +skill in any form to help reduce your miss chance, then you will need more hit rating to have the same miss chance after the patch.

Since your profile says you're a Night Elf, and I can't think of too many level 70 +gun or +bow items, I'm guessing you probably won't see a change in your missrate.

Thanks for the answer.

◊ Shalas · 10/13/07, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Macblade

well that is unfortunate. Weapon skill was added in a patch at some point right? Anyone know what the human racial was before weapon skill came along?

Weapon skill predates racials by at least 6 months.

◊ Rob · 10/13/07, 7:00 PM

If anyone is interested in what this change means to the enhancement shaman community, I've posted a brief commentary here. Whether expertise is any good for us or not depends on two things:

Whether or not expertise affects yellow damage. We'd assume so, but assumptions often are proven wrong.
If expertise increases the number of hits, or merely raises the hit cap (i.e; are "Parry"/"Dodge" converted to "Hit" or "Miss" in the attack table?). We don't hit-cap ourselves, and expertise will be completely useless if it does not increase the actual number of hits.

PSGarak · 10/13/07, 8:30 PM

Songster: Converting to percents makes total sense... converting to an intermediate number that represents a fraction of a percent does not. I know why it's a rating, I'd be bitching if it wasn't. I'm wondering why they said "16 expertise rating is 4 expertise, which reduces d/p by 1% each" instead of "16 expertise rating is 1% expertise, reducing d/p by that much each."
Both of these ways of phrasing it mean exactly the same thing, in game terms. But the first one, which is what they have in the PTR, adds an extra intermediate value that is meaningless, and requires further conversion to be compared to anything.
Everything else in the game, except weapon skill which they just replaced for this, has at most two ways of valuing it, a rating and a percent. Expertise would have a third value in between those that seems to be entirely pointless.

Sp00n: Uh... no. If they alter the value of one expertise rating, that changes how much expertise you get per point of rating, but the amount of rating on your gear remains the same. One point of rating, regardless of type, costs the same. It's the conversion ratios, and only the conversion ratios, that define it as cheap or expensive.
If they decide they wanted expertise to be twice as expensive, you wouldn't see every expertise item get its expertise rating cut in half; you'd see the ratio double.

Krag · 10/13/07, 9:38 PM

I did some quick testing of expertise on the skettis trees.

The ones with the * after the name are level 72, the others are the 71s.

With 0 expertise:

Talonsworn Forest-Rager       Swings        Miss             Hit              Crit             Dodge            Parry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee                            391      6 (1,53 %)     184 (47,06 %)    142 (36,32 %)     28 (7,16 %)      31 (7,93 %)  
Maul                              68      1 (1,47 %)      41 (60,29 %)     18 (26,47 %)      3 (4,41 %)       5 (7,35 %)  
Mangle (Bear)                    154      3 (1,95 %)      83 (53,90 %)     46 (29,87 %)     12 (7,79 %)      10 (6,49 %)  
Lacerate                         263     11 (4,18 %)     128 (48,67 %)     90 (34,22 %)     15 (5,70 %)      19 (7,22 %)  
Swipe                            157      4 (2,55 %)      78 (49,68 %)     54 (34,39 %)      7 (4,46 %)      14 (8,92 %)  
Total                           1033     25 (2,42 %)     514 (49,76 %)    350 (33,88 %)     65 (6,29 %)      79 (7,65 %)  

Talonsworn Forest-Rager *     Swings        Miss             Hit              Crit             Dodge            Parry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee                            390     12 (3,08 %)     185 (47,44 %)    147 (37,69 %)     27 (6,92 %)      19 (4,87 %)  
Maul                              67      0 (0,00 %)      42 (62,69 %)     21 (31,34 %)      2 (2,99 %)       2 (2,99 %)  
Mangle (Bear)                    146      4 (2,74 %)      79 (54,11 %)     45 (30,82 %)      6 (4,11 %)      12 (8,22 %)  
Lacerate                         242      6 (2,48 %)     117 (48,35 %)     95 (39,26 %)     10 (4,13 %)      14 (5,79 %)  
Swipe                            155      3 (1,94 %)      88 (56,77 %)     52 (33,55 %)      7 (4,52 %)       5 (3,23 %)  
Total                           1000     25 (2,50 %)     511 (51,10 %)    360 (36,00 %)     52 (5,20 %)      52 (5,20 %)

With 16 expertise (66 expertise rating), 4% reduction in dodge and parry according to the character sheet:

Talonsworn Forest-Rager       Swings        Miss             Hit              Crit             Dodge            Parry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee                            338      9 (2,66 %)     179 (52,96 %)    140 (41,42 %)      7 (2,07 %)       3 (0,89 %)  
Maul                              22      0 (0,00 %)      18 (81,82 %)      4 (18,18 %)      0 (0,00 %)       0 (0,00 %)  
Mangle (Bear)                    123      1 (0,81 %)      63 (51,22 %)     55 (44,72 %)      1 (0,81 %)       3 (2,44 %)  
Lacerate                         214      5 (2,34 %)     135 (63,08 %)     65 (30,37 %)      3 (1,40 %)       6 (2,80 %)  
Swipe                            153      4 (2,61 %)      95 (62,09 %)     48 (31,37 %)      3 (1,96 %)       3 (1,96 %)  
Total                            850     19 (2,24 %)     490 (57,65 %)    312 (36,71 %)     14 (1,65 %)      15 (1,76 %)  

Talonsworn Forest-Rager *     Swings        Miss             Hit              Crit             Dodge            Parry
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melee                            467     11 (2,36 %)     280 (59,96 %)    163 (34,90 %)      5 (1,07 %)       8 (1,71 %)  
Maul                              11      2 (18,18 %)      5 (45,45 %)      4 (36,36 %)      0 (0,00 %)       0 (0,00 %)  
Mangle (Bear)                    156      2 (1,28 %)      92 (58,97 %)     53 (33,97 %)      5 (3,21 %)       4 (2,56 %)  
Lacerate                         272     10 (3,68 %)     173 (63,60 %)     84 (30,88 %)      4 (1,47 %)       1 (0,37 %)  
Swipe                            189      1 (0,53 %)     113 (59,79 %)     70 (37,04 %)      2 (1,06 %)       3 (1,59 %)  
Total                           1095     26 (2,37 %)     663 (60,55 %)    374 (34,16 %)     16 (1,46 %)      16 (1,46 %)

It's not solid proof, but I will say it still shows that expertise does indeed turn dodges and parries into hits as would be expected (I have no clue how anyone would think it would turn them into misses) and that it affects yellow damage from skills equally.

We probably need some tests done on level 73/boss mobs as those were the ones where it seemed weapon skill and parry was broken. Probably also needs testing by non-druids as it's not impossible that one and not the other is broken, it has happened before

• Vulajin · 10/13/07, 10:07 PM

If anyone has plenty of expertise rating, enough to get about 21-23 expertise, and would like to fight some bosses on the PTR, that data would help a LOT. We really need an exact amount for the expertise cap.

(I'm sitting on only 12 expertise, else I could check it out myself. Instead all I can do is beg others. Sorry. :p)

◊ Rob · 10/13/07, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Krag

(I have no clue how anyone would think it would turn them into misses)

In my case, pessimism based on previous confusing and/or shitty mechanics. This is very good to hear, though.

Emeraude · 10/13/07, 10:26 PM

From the Warrior boards

In regards of our weapon mastery, Which is +4 weapon expertise.

PTR isn't updated with the new version of weapon mastery yet. It's a straight 4% dodge reduction (in addition to the disarm duration reduction).

- Kalgan

Looney · 10/13/07, 10:27 PM

Deathwish swap not the end of the world...

PTR isn't updated with the new version of weapon mastery yet. It's a straight 4% dodge reduction (in addition to the disarm duration reduction).

edit: too late -.-

Dontmindme · 10/14/07, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

If anyone has plenty of expertise rating, enough to get about 21-23 expertise, and would like to fight some bosses on the PTR, that data would help a LOT. We really need an exact amount for the expertise cap.

(I'm sitting on only 12 expertise, else I could check it out myself. Instead all I can do is beg others. Sorry. :p)

I think this may prove very interesting vs. bosses. Since it was not possible to pin down the exact dodge % vs bosses on live, assuming the same % applies and we can get enough expertise, we can derive exact numbers vs 73, 72, 71 and really see what is going on. We can see if there is a gap like hit rating has where it jumps 3% all of a sudden.

I know that some believe that bosses dodge 6.5% (mitigated by casting) which would require 26 expertise.

rayijin · 10/14/07, 3:28 AM

So it's confirmed... dodges and parries are converted directly into hits.

Expertise is now the best single stat for increasing DPS even while attacking from behind, and completely blows every other stat out of the water for attacking from the front.

Basically, for ratings: 16 expertise = 22 crit = 32 hit = 1% increased damage.

Tanks and solo dpsers see double the benefit due to the parry reduction also helping them.

Dralmonas · 10/14/07, 3:43 AM

Something else to consider, for tanks it actually is an increase to threat gen AND improves mitigation as well, since fewer parries means fewer hasted attacks from the boss due to said parries.

Makes those new wrists in ZA even sexier looking now...

• Vulajin · 10/14/07, 3:56 AM

Originally Posted by rayijin

Basically, for ratings: 16 expertise = 22 crit = 32 hit = 1% increased damage.

It's still far more complicated than that since each class benefits from these things differently.

(edit) Sorry, I'm stupid, your version is correct if attacking from the front. My version was for attacking from behind.

rayijin · 10/14/07, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

It's still far more complicated than that since each class benefits from these things differently.

(edit) Sorry, I'm stupid, your version is correct if attacking from the front. My version was for attacking from behind.

Apologies, meant to say assuming 50% of your damage is white and 50% is yellow, you're dual wielding and you're at the hit cap on specials, in which case my numbers would hold (the parry reduction is not a factor, but the increase to both white hits AND specials is).

If you're a tank attacking from the front, and not hit capped, 16 expertise rating = 32 hit, from the rear they are equal.

If you're a melee dps attacking from the front, dual wielding and hit capped on specials, 8 expertise rating = 32 hit rating.

Even if you're dual wielding and not hit capped on specials and attacking from behind, 16 expertise rating = 16 hit rating.

I do realize that rogues do more white damage than yellow at the high-end of gear, this would shift the equivalence somewhat.

songster · 10/14/07, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by PSGarak

Songster: Converting to percents makes total sense... converting to an intermediate number that represents a fraction of a percent does not. I know why it's a rating, I'd be bitching if it wasn't. I'm wondering why they said "16 expertise rating is 4 expertise, which reduces d/p by 1% each" instead of "16 expertise rating is 1% expertise, reducing d/p by that much each."
Both of these ways of phrasing it mean exactly the same thing, in game terms. But the first one, which is what they have in the PTR, adds an extra intermediate value that is meaningless, and requires further conversion to be compared to anything.

I hate to say this, but please read the post you're replying to. They want to be able to have talents (like rogue weaponskill, or the new warrior/pally talents) that say "Adds 5/10 Expertise". They do not want these talents devalue as you level up, so these talents have to grant the stats directly, rather than as ratings.

In your scenario, each of those talents would instead have to say "Reduces your enemy's chance to dodge and your enemy's chance to parry by 1.25%/2.5%", which is more confusing to the general populace and doesn't give something that can be represented as a single number in the paperdoll dropdown window.

Having both expertise rating and expertise in the game allows them to implement gear and talents in a way which will either devalue as you level up (using the rating), or not devalue as you level up (using the stat directly).

Lure · 10/14/07, 3:23 PM

I think everyone is missing the big picture here. Clearly this change was made to make Subt a more viable tree for rogues since now you don't need to put the 27 in combat for WEX :P

Can't wait to see the "Hemo buff." Hurray.

Oki · 10/14/07, 3:59 PM

I estimated -2% for sword spec, -2.3% for human sword spec, -1.5 for dagger spec and about 0 for combat mutilate

Xav · 10/14/07, 5:16 PM

Okay, so I read the thread. And it's now established that expertise does turn the dodge/parry reduction directly into hits.

However, with the removal of weapon skill, and the affect that had on hitting higher level mobs before, I have to wonder.

Are all tank races now going to be looking at a base 9% miss chance vs bosses? Instead of humans/orcs getting like 3% hit for free there (if they used the right weapon), and then only needing 6% from gear.

I previously itemized around the 5% hit I needed (had more weapon skill from other stuff), but now it looks like, if I still want to maximize my chances to hit the mob, I'll need more hit.

I am well aware that I'll be hitting the mob more overall now anyway because of expertise, but I want to build a set, if possible, that gives me basically a 100% hit chance.

Thoughts?