All these changes mean is that Hunter ideal hit rating is going to be the same across the board for Survival/non-Survival Hunters. (95/142)
Originally Posted by Wunlastri
Got it got it, understood, ok cool, wait. Explain the numbers. I've never seen those numbers before in my WoW life.
Survival has a built in +hit talent, so you need less +hit yourself to cap out. Therefore, 142 for non-SV hunters and 95 for SV hunters would represent the hit cap.
Last edited by Loeff : 10/15/07 at 2:43 PM.
Reason: basically what Keltan said :)
Okay, so I read the thread. And it's now established that expertise does turn the dodge/parry reduction directly into hits.
However, with the removal of weapon skill, and the affect that had on hitting higher level mobs before, I have to wonder.
Are all tank races now going to be looking at a base 9% miss chance vs bosses? Instead of humans/orcs getting like 3% hit for free there (if they used the right weapon), and then only needing 6% from gear.
I previously itemized around the 5% hit I needed (had more weapon skill from other stuff), but now it looks like, if I still want to maximize my chances to hit the mob, I'll need more hit.
I am well aware that I'll be hitting the mob more overall now anyway because of expertise, but I want to build a set, if possible, that gives me basically a 100% hit chance.
Thoughts?
Yes. This was a big nerf to the weapon skill racials. But at the same time, +3% hit was excessive for a racial. It's the equivalent of 3 talent points for most classes.
Has the dodge or parry cap for bosses been determined yet? I've heard people state that the dodge cap is 5.6%, which seems a bit low to me. It also seems suspiciously similar to the previously estimated hit cap of 8.6%.
In your scenario, each of those talents would instead have to say "Reduces your enemy's chance to dodge and your enemy's chance to parry by 1.25%/2.5%", which is more confusing to the general populace and doesn't give something that can be represented as a single number in the paperdoll dropdown window.
You're still not understanding me (or we're not understanding each other). I am well aware that talents need to be in non-rating formats. I'm disagreeing with the use of the current expertise as said non-rating format when it must be converted further to be of any parsable value.
I know it would end up in the way that you describe, and I would prefer it, because I think it's less confusing, not more. I really think that direct percents are more approachable than a new stat that is neither a percent nor a rating. Everyone's going to want to turn it into the relevant percent in order to make sense of it anyways. I see no reason why a percent could not be displayed in the character pane, much like how crit is (and honestly, how hit should be).
You're still not understanding me (or we're not understanding each other). I am well aware that talents need to be in non-rating formats. I'm disagreeing with the use of the current expertise as said non-rating format when it must be converted further to be of any parsable value.
I know it would end up in the way that you describe, and I would prefer it, because I think it's less confusing, not more. I really think that direct percents are more approachable than a new stat that is neither a percent nor a rating. Everyone's going to want to turn it into the relevant percent in order to make sense of it anyways. I see no reason why a percent could not be displayed in the character pane, much like how crit is (and honestly, how hit should be).
When you hover over your expertise rating in the character sheet, it shows the percentage.
They could have made it directly in percent, but it's ok.
But I can fully understand your problems. I was struggling big time when trying to calculate expertise rating myself, all those /4 *0.25 etc confused the hell out of me and I ended up with totally wrong numbers more than enough.
This may just be an insomnia-induced rant, but does anyone think that a very small part of the reason they changed this stat to Expertise is to reduce (and at some level, negate) the lolparry mechanic causing tank deaths in the endgame? I mean, it probably isn't the reason they changed the stat of course, but do you think it was just an incidental that it'll cause this? Or just a nice buff?
Has the dodge or parry cap for bosses been determined yet? I've heard people state that the dodge cap is 5.6%, which seems a bit low to me. It also seems suspiciously similar to the previously estimated hit cap of 8.6%.
I looked through some old data I had from 3 hrs worth of Archimonde tanking, and for heroic strike, autoattack, shieldslam, devastate and revenge Archimonde sampled dodge rate was in the range of 3.7-6.9% for dodge and 11.6-14.2% for parry.
This was with 355 wpn skill. Though the sample data was quite small with 3000 swings, it almost seemes certain that the parry rate of bosses is way higher than their dodge rate.
Something aound 12% seemes right.
Yup, you will need an aweful lot of expertise rating to negate parries 100% but even the 6% is a huge bonus to our survival, and Hunters complainign abt the buff being for tanks? we just gained 12% hit, which means u dont have to FD and can therefore do more dps as our tps will be higher. Should even itself out in the end. If i were dps id much rather my tanksurvived than be top of dmg meters.
This may just be an insomnia-induced rant, but does anyone think that a very small part of the reason they changed this stat to Expertise is to reduce (and at some level, negate) the lolparry mechanic causing tank deaths in the endgame? I mean, it probably isn't the reason they changed the stat of course, but do you think it was just an incidental that it'll cause this? Or just a nice buff?
It might shut down some of the whining about that mechanic. Thats always a reason for blizzard to change something. I dont have exact numbers but it was not more than a handful of wipes we had to the "boss turns for special ability, 5 parries streak" flaw.
It wont have a huge impact on raiding on that side even if all melee dps would have maxed out expertise.
I would however think that they wanted a stat other than the already very fast capped hit rating for tanks to make their threat more stable and scale up with gear upgrades.
That part always has been a problem in the past, the chance to switch to more expertise on bosses with threat issues is a good change overall.
As a side effect its also another step in the gear merge for feral dps and rogues, the change to HotW being the other in 2.3.
Had one last night on Mother Sharhaz, 4 parries on my last 5 attacks, most of the time you wont die due to a parry, unless the boss has a cleave mechanic, thankfully not every boss has it and ones that do, have a 2 sec swing timer apart from Gurtogg/Mother who DW.
This may just be an insomnia-induced rant, but does anyone think that a very small part of the reason they changed this stat to Expertise is to reduce (and at some level, negate) the lolparry mechanic causing tank deaths in the endgame? I mean, it probably isn't the reason they changed the stat of course, but do you think it was just an incidental that it'll cause this? Or just a nice buff?
I stated it earlier in the thread, and I will say it again. It will certainly help those concerns. I think blizzard understands how much of a problem the parry has become in some end-game fights. Someone above me said it as well, it's a really nice way for them to scale threat at this point in the game. In Pre-TBC they used set bonuses as a way to build up tank threat without having to itemize too much hit on tank gear. Dreadnaught had two bonuses designed to increase threat. We are at a similar stage in gear level. It's a good way to deal with it too. Especially considering the threat differences between warriors and other tanks.
i think the best thing about the expertise change is they've created a stat which is twice as good for tanks as for everyone else, which should improve long-term threat scaling. i also like that it soft caps due to the high parry rate of bosses: at first its the best threat stat available, and then once you've reduced dodge to zero, it stays on par with hit. I don't think anyone is going to hit the expertise cap against raid bosses where you've eliminated parries, that's 240 expertise.
also, expertise is a great farming stat, since the mobs generally face you while soloing.
makes me very glad i picked up a Latro's Shifting Sword for my warrior recently.
I've done some limited testing on the PTR and observed that more special attacks land than in the regular server and more white damage misses than in the regular server. The second bit is as expected, but I hadn't considered the first. I'm sure some of you did consider it already. I'm not sure this change will actually reduce DPS at all, given that a high % of attacks are special attacks, which will land more often with the new talent.
Since on most special attacks, you probably have enough hit to never miss, weapon expertise talent improves the number of times (and % chance) that those attacks land by a significant margin. I don't have enough data accumulated as of yet to post conclusive evidence of this, but will post my still limited data here.
One player (rogue) had 5.06% of his Sinister Strike attacks dodged (3 parried when mob turned presumably/17 dodge, 336 attacks) on Magtheridon on the live server and on the bear boss Nalorakk in Zul'Aman in the PTR he only had 3.4% of his Sinister Strikes dodged (5 parried when mob turned/16 dodged over 473 SS attacks). Data for me was even less statistically relavent due to an unfortunately early death on the Magtheridon fight. There is also a minor flaw in the data for Zul'Aman (these figures may include some of Nalorakk's trash). Nearly all of the time, he was attacking from the back, but minor positioning issues caused some parries.
This data is reasonably consistent with the theory that 10 weapon skill reduces dodge by about 1% and that 10 weapon expertise reduces dodge by 2.5% - for a net change of 1.5%. The change I observed was 1.66% reduction to dodge and increase to hit on special attacks.
For white damage, I observed on the PTR, with 239 hit rating (combat rogue with weapon expertise and precision), out of 1924 attacks, 136 were misses (7.1%), 20 were parried (1% - due to the few times he pulled aggro) and 73 dodged (3.8%). On the regular server (Magtheridon), on 1857 attacks, 94 were misses (5.06%), 34 parried (1.8%), and 87 dodged (4.7%). The miss rate increased approximately 2% and the dodge rate decreased approximately 0.9%. This is where is becomes more obvious that trash may have gotten mixed in on the PTR figures. I'll work on cleaning that up later and accumulating more data. I would have expected about 4.34% misses on the regular server and the actual miss rate was 5.06%, which is almost definitely due to an inadequate data set. I will work on accumulating more data for the same person as well as myself in both the PTR and the regular server.
Please excuse my lack of knowledge about tank items. I'm just curious how many plate tanking items there are that currently have +wep skill and thus will presumably have +expertise. Will it even be possible to "stack" expertise or will it just be nice to have that stat on one or two peices? I'm guessing that bear tanks on the other hand could put together a set that sacrificed some survivablity by stacking rogue items with weapon expertise on them. I believe that bear tanks are pretty much the best single targte TPS tanks, but I'm guessing that this change will have a HUGE inpact and make bear tanks the undisputed TPS leaders.
Edit: Assuming the list on the first page is complete, there is only one plate item with +skill on it at the moment and Mallet of the Tides, which I assume all MTs have already. A druid on the other hand can get belt golves and shoulders and they should all have earthwarden. Either way it looks like itemization will be the cap currently, but the itemization does favor bear tanks...
It's very hit and miss as far as items with Expertise, but currently, it is favored on more (and more powerful) tanking Warrior gear than Druid bear gear.
It's very hit and miss as far as items with Expertise, but currently, it is favored on more (and more powerful) tanking Warrior gear than Druid bear gear.
Good to know. Speaking of bear tanks, has anyone shown that this works for druids in feral form? I know that it would be stupid if it didn't but, that doesn't mean that its not the case anyway.
Good to know. Speaking of bear tanks, has anyone shown that this works for druids in feral form? I know that it would be stupid if it didn't but, that doesn't mean that its not the case anyway.
PSGarak: I know what you're saying, however, due to the way Blizz has Expertise converted, having 16 rating = 1 expertise = 1% off parry and dodge doesn't work because it doesn't do anything but whole numbers. Getting 15 rating would be the same benefit as zero, because it wouldn't off 1 expertise but zero. With 4 rating = 1% = .25% off parry and block, there isn't as much of a gap between gear and getting enough expertise to do something is much easier.
It's the same way with Defense - one more rating might not actually do anything, because it won't always push you to another point in the skill.
adding 16 Hitrating I get ~1% +hit
adding 16 expertise I get -1% dodge (I'm perfect at positioning so no parry )
while +hit only affects the 55% white damage -dodge affects white and backstab damage, thats about 85-90% of my total damage so its 1.6 times as effective.
This is not an exact calculation but i think its ok to get the picture.
But dodged backstabs give a refund of 75% of the energy cost. A dodged backstab is not nearly as bad as a dodged autoattack. We can think of dodges to backstabs - and thus the benefit of expertise - as only having 25% effectiveness.
But dodged backstabs give a refund of 75% of the energy cost. A dodged backstab is not nearly as bad as a dodged autoattack. We can think of dodges to backstabs - and thus the benefit of expertise - as only having 25% effectiveness.
The relative value of expertise is then:
(30 - 35) / 4 / 55 ~ 15% more effective than hit.
I thought the actual refund was 80% actually making a dodged special only cost 1/5. Regardless, the point still stands. Missing is only a small loss of energy. Not insignificant, but not as great a gain as it at first may seem.
I do have a question for those on the PTR...
Is the Expertise conversion rate exactly 4 rating to 1 Expertise, or does it look like its the same as weapon skill was...i.e 2.5*82/52 = 3.942 to 1.
If it's the latter, the reason for this is ease of scaling. As you go up in level they just change the conversion formula (the 82/52 part). If the information on Wowwiki is correct, the new conversion formula at 80 will be 92/52, so it will become 2.5*92/52 = 4.423 to 1.
Blizzard changes just a single variable and all the ratings scale equivalently.
With regards to the miss rate calculation, since expertise will replace weapon skill, does the same formulas still apply? i.e. keeping within 10 levels of enemy defence will result in a lower decaying miss rate?
But dodged backstabs give a refund of 75% of the energy cost. A dodged backstab is not nearly as bad as a dodged autoattack. We can think of dodges to backstabs - and thus the benefit of expertise - as only having 25% effectiveness.
The relative value of expertise is then:
(30 - 35) / 4 / 55 ~ 15% more effective than hit.
However, reducing the dodge rate for special attacks also increases the crit rate for such attacks, as those are on a two roll system.
Assuming a 6% dodge rate, your crit rate is reduced by crit rate*0.06. Reducing your chance to be dodged by 2.5% nets an increase of crit rate*0.025.
For 60% crit (combat dagger) this would be 1.5% more crits, for 30% an increase of 0.75%.
Originally Posted by Dontmindme
I do have a question for those on the PTR...
Is the Expertise conversion rate exactly 4 rating to 1 Expertise, or does it look like its the same as weapon skill was...i.e 2.5*82/52 = 3.942 to 1.
Exactly as weapon skill. At least I think so as it would be logical. Yet if it also truncated as weapon skill was (meaning, partial expertise isn't taken into account for calculation, as the character sheet currently shows it), there's no difference between a 4 to 1 or 3.94 to 1 ratio, as there is never the case when both formulas would produce different expertise percentages.
Huh?
15 rating equal 3 expertise. And as such 0.75% reduction to dodge and parry.
He was referring to someone's suggestions that they remove the "intermediate" expertise stat so that there weren't two conversions. IE, 16 rating -> 1 expertise -> 1.0% reduction in dodge/parry, instead of 4 rating -> 1 expertise -> 0.25% reduction in dodge/parry. The argument is that it makes it easier for the player to understand if there aren't two 4:1 conversion factors involved.
The major downsides to making 16 rating = 1 expertise = -1% dodge/parry are:
1) It wouldn't match up well to the existing weapon skill system, making the change more confusing.
2) It wouldn't be fine-grained enough to match well with current talent options. (I'm thinking paladins and warriors here, given the new Defiance.)
3) It would have the disadvantage (as stated above) of causing 15 rating to give you 0% reduction and 16 rating to give you 1% reduction - a pretty coarse-grained system.
Alternatively, they could eliminate the conversion altogether.
The upsides to this are:
1) It would be simpler to understand and calculate
2) It could be changed to act like the current resilience: Resilience is shown only as a rating in your defenses stat-block and is treated as a floating point. There is no intermediate "resilience" value converted from resilience rating. There are also no talents which give "resilience" directly. Instead, talents reference direct % reductions in crit chance or crit damage. (See for example the paladin Ret talent Divine Purpose or the druid Feral Combat talent Survival of the Fittest.)
3) Talents could be re-evaluated to give a direct benefit in dodge/parry reduction (or some combination) which would best be balanced and suit the class. For example, the Rogue talent Weapon Expertise could be changed to "Reduce your opponents chance to dodge your attacks by 2%/4%" and/or the paladin Combat Expertise talent could be "Reduce your opponents chance to parry your attacks by 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5%" (insert appropriate %'s which balance the talents).
4) Since talents wouldn't give expertise directly, there wouldn't be discrepancies in usefulness of expertise talents between tanking and DPS classes - only on usefulness of expertise gear.
Really, it doesn't matter much which way they do it. If they choose to implement it like Defense and have a 2 conversion system (as now on the PTR), that will work fine and we'll get used to it. If they choose to do away with it in talents altogether, replace the talents with direct % reductions, and make expertise work like resilience, crit rating, or hit rating, then we'll get used to that too. Personally, I think the second way would make more sense, but it would also probably require more rework on their part. Which is probably why we see it like it is now. Functionally, both are the same... so whatever.
Last edited by Left : 10/17/07 at 10:18 AM.
Reason: Spelling error
10/15/07, 2:42 PM
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