Tacitus

Allrighty then, seems that I need to study math a little more.

Brotherhood, Peace, Unity

Welcome back, Comrade

 

Fateblade

Inferno


Thanks for the hot tip on the infernals.

 

Kuradoberi

Is the bonus damage provided by having Immolate up, affected by spelldamage gear or is it just a flat bonus?

This question is nagging me, since I am testing fire destro. The leulier spreadsheet says I gain ~3% more personal dps, provided i have godlike timing with 100% Immolate uptime.
While testing it ( 5/5 mh, 4/9 bt ), some issues came up. Clipping Immolate and Incinerate without Immolate up.

Taking my first night as fire as an example : Kuradoberi - WWS

Provided I can do around 4 Immolates per minute, and I happen to clip it everytime, my rough draft tells me I will have an avg dps loss of (4x493)/60 =~ 33 dps.

The leulier spreadsheet does not have a formula for Incinerate without Immolate up, since clicking Immolate on/off does not show any difference at all.

Depending whether the bonusdamage is affected spelldamage gear, what is a greater dps loss? Clipping Immolate or having your 5/6/7th Incinerate doing damage without Immolate up, depending on your rotation.

 

garazdawi

If possible/needed I always try to get a lifetap in at the end of the immolate, otherwise I'd rather clip the immo than to let a inc hit without immo. Feels like a tic of immo always will be less damage than what you loose out on a inc hitting without immo.

 

Arelenda

It is a flat bonus, so only multipliers count towards it.

I'd recommend not clipping Immolate by using Life Tap near the end of the Immo duration, and just using an Incinerate with Immo up if Life Tap isn't needed. Note that other warlock's Immolate count too.

The messing about with the Immo debuff is one of my main reasons not to play with fire.

 

Talimar

according to the spreadsheet a reckless pyrestone is worth a tiny bit more dps than a runed crimson spinel.
however when I replace my spinels with pyrestones, my dps drops?


also I'm wondering how many mages do you need for CoE to outdamage CoD? Im telling myself at least 3 but I throw it up when theres only two as well just so they wont qq at me.

 

Lovecraft

Simplistically speaking, find out (via WWS parse, or even damage meter data) the DPS done from fire and frost damage in the raid. Then add on the DPS gained from four GCDs by the warlock who would be casting CoE over CoD (2.4 shadowbolts). If 10% (assuming no Malediction on CoE) of that is more DPS than your CoD, then it's worth using CoE.

That should give you a rough estimate. There are other factors, such as when you'd be using CoA over CoD if TTD was less than one minute, but that shouldn't adversely affect the calculation, given there'd be a much larger deviation in raid DPS from week to week than CoD to CoA DPS/DPCT.

 

Kalle

It is not affected by spelldamage. The damage of a spell is calculated as (base_dmg + spell_coefficient * spelldmg) * some_coefficient. Having imolate on the target simply increases the base damage. It is however subject to the same modifiers as incinerate, like debuffs, talents, critical strike bonus etc.

One immolate tick is (123 + 0.13 * fdmg) * coefficient. Bonus damage of incinerate is 120 * coefficient * (1 + crit_coeff * crit), with crit_coeff being 0.5 without ruin or CSD, 0.545 without ruin but with CSD, 1.0 with ruin but without CSD and 1.09 with ruin and CSD. At every realistic gear level, the immolate tick will do more damage.

 

garazdawi

CoD does about 10k damage over 60 seconds. So that is 10,000/60 = 166 dps. CoE adds 10% to any mage (and fire lock!) in the raid. So they have to do more than 1666 dps together to make CoE worth it. The mages I play with all deliver that DPS on their own, so just one mage is enough to put CoE up. If you are just starting to raid karazhan and mage should still be able to output atleast 800 dps so with 2 mages CoE should be up.

 

galzohar

1. Look at the ISB DPS, when it's taken into account when evaluating "next stat" but doesn't add it to your DPS when you just change your damage/crit.

2. Turn yourself from CoE to CoD on the spreadsheet and see your DPS difference, then see if it's more than mage DPS / 10. For my example gear CoD DPS gain is 173 so mages would need to total at least 1730 DPS. If your gear is better then CoD will do a bit more DPS requiring a bit more - this makes 1 fire mage really situational depending on exactly how much you get from CoD vs CoE and how much DPS he does, but if you have 2 fire mages it's a no-brainer to CoE. If mages are arcane though it depends how much of their damage is actually from arcane and how much is from frost (assuming a standard 40/0/21 arcane spec) so you'll have to take into account fight duration and the support they have as well... Anyway you definitely don't *need* 3 mages to use CoE, but you do need 3 warlocks since CoS and CoR are quite better in any realistic raid.

 

Zasz

Any ideas how I can convince my raidleader to stop sticking me to the tank group? Yesterday for example we did BT up to bloodboil and I was in the group with 3 prot warriors and a bear. I´m one of 2 affliction warlocks in our guild, the other 3 are full destru. For akama I was lucky enough to get to the group with 2 warlocks, 1 elemental and 1 mage.

 

Thanahtos

No offense, but the reason you're in the raid as affliction, is to be in the tank group to give Improved Imp... I'm sorta confused.

There's something called "Raid Utility" and affliction is a "Raid Utility" spec, if you want pure personal DPS, you'd be destruction.

 

Emolate

Look at the WWS and do the math on whether or not the Imp is helping Group 1.

 

barlaniel

My guild is currently on brutallus and i have a couple of questions about my own dps.
Fully raid buffed i have 1530 shadow dmg 30%crit (talents inc) hit cap and no spell haste gear.
Now heres what i need to know currently i seem to be capped at around 2000 dps.Ive looked over a lot of wws reports of brutallus kills and from all this ive come to the conclusion that since my guild is going to be using 2 shadow priests and 1 or 2 others who dont have 4 pc yet there has to be some extra dps coming from the top 5. I fairly sure ill be one of these but i just dont think that 2000 dps cuts it. I do have a shaman in my group and i think ill be gettin a shadow preist although not 100% sure yet. Either way however even with a s. preist i cant get above 2000 dps. I use destruction potions as well as litterly ride the tanks ass all the way home on on terron and the few brutallus attempts we have had. What can i do to boost my dps to the 2200-2400 range that i continusly see on the wws reports of bruallus kills. I dont have a skull of guldan , but atelast from what ive read it shoudlnt add 200+dps.
Does Dps rely on the timing of the first hit and the size of it? Ive noticed that if i start off with a 9800 crit or something similar my dps at the end of the fight seems higher then if i start with a normal non crit.I never did check to see if the damage done at the end of the fights changes i tend to only look at straight dps. Does that matter at all or is that just me overanalizing? Are the warlocks in those wws reports gettin chain heroisms?
All i kno is i wanna see my numbers in the 2200-2400 range.Drums i kno can increase the groups dps we have only 3 who have them but other then drums any other tips or suggestions?

Also we have 4 destro locks right now so ISB is up almost all the time. Does having an 1 shadow preist vs 2 increase its uptime? Thats another thing i have been wondering heavily since midblast is a 1.5 sec cast they eat up the isb debuff's at a rate of 2 per 1.2 shadow bolts ,And shadow word death is instant. since we have 4 locks doesnt that reduce the uptime? meaning that Evry 8 and 12 sec we would loose out on basically 3 of the 4 warlocks 20%extra dmg. i did the math and a destro warlock benifits more from the same 20% but my point is having 4 warlocks with 100%+crit altogether with anything more than 1 shadow preist reduces dps and dmg of the 3 of the 4 locks with 1 lock gettin randomly lucky evry 8 to 12 sec.

im not sayin s preist should not use death and mind blast cause that is way to much dps loss but is there a cap where having X amount of warlocks mixed with X amount of shadow preists becomes counterproductive.
i may be wrong on that last part its just a theory but either way i hope someone out there has thought as hard about fine tuning dmg output.

 

taybul

Be sure you pop your trinkets every single cooldown during this fight, except maybe the beginning to let the tank build agro. Also be sure you have your consumables: oil, flask of pure death, well fed buff.

 

galzohar

Just look at the spreadsheet, play around with number of shadow users of each type and you'll get your answers of how much DPS you lose from less ISB form having an extra shadowpriest. But I can already tell you with 4 warlocks the difference in ISB will not be big when you change from 1 to 2 shadowpriests. The extra mana those shadowpriests give to their parties and thus their extra dps is a lot more beneficial unless you're trying to do all the DPS yourself in which case you may just need to find a new guild.

 

Flamingcloud

Warlocks pulling 2000dps on brutallus is probably fine if you have amazing melee.. If you best lock is 2000, and the other three below that you are probably in trouble in a 8 healer setup. We usually have three locks averaging around 2300 followed by most of the raid at 1800-2050dps.

Having 0 spell haste is pretty bad. You would probably get alot of benefit out of +10haste gems. Super Mana pots are usually better than destruction potions, I use 2 super manas and a destruction pot under heroism. Usually have 1 drum in my group so we drums at 1minute, 3minute, 5minute and I trinket at that time as well.

 

dakalro

1. Use mana potions, search around and you'll see they give about double benefit to destro potions (unless you're totally threat capped and rely on LT to slow your TPS).
2. The difference in the number of shadow priests is minimal, your biggest drawback is wildly varying crit rates for the warlocks.
3. Drums help, a lot. Though my group only has 3 drums (I never had the heart to give up either tailoring or enchanting, too many recipes, too much time, too little time to grind at this moment due to work - had my consumables ready maybe a month before Sunwell).
4. Threat that's available to you. I can usually start nicely but get to 115%+ quite fast if I go all out, I don't even pop trinkets cause I'd be up there at less than 1 minute into the fight. Mostly LT if I have the mana deficit, watch the walls, slow down for a while - cast, don't try to beat the latency. At around 60-65% I shatter and pop everything pretty much going all out, trying to time for latency, trying to be at full mana right before. I know this limits my dps by a lot because I start out at over 2.2-2.3k but still nets me somewhere around 2.2k dps at the end, after hero (mostly dependant on luck with crits, I never seem to get a kill when I have some nice crit, at least not below my normal) with riding the line of 1.9-2k for the first part of the fight where I pretty much slack.
Too bad attempts where tanks get nice threat we seem to always fail, it's a huge difference with what you can do when you can't reach over 100% no matter how hard you try. Hoping our huge batch of new healers get geared/accustomed to the right way of healing so we can have our Prot pally do it compared to him healing on his ZA alt. With the boss' attack speed pure Holy Shield consumption is ~1k tps.

 

rochan

I'm sort of confused by agro on Felmyst. I will be at 100-120% of the tank while she is on the ground, then get up to about 140-150% when she flies. However, when she lands, she goes straight for the tank again. Is it possible you don't generate threat when she is flying? How have others been finding this fight threat-wise? When are you soul shattering. If you shatter at the first flight you can ss twice in the fight, or would you wait til later say just before a heroism.

Also this fight makes warlocks look great on dps meters

 

Zasz

I know about the imp but I dont have any points in demonoly, just normal imp. Besides, which tank does need an imp if a guild has BT on farm? And for skilling destru, I dont like playing like a mage. I enjoy being affliction with skilled malediction even if it means being behind the other locks.

 

Thanahtos

Well even with BT on farm, I assume you still have progression in Sunwell that you are going to have to deal with spike damage deaths of tanks (e.g., Brutallus, a 20k Stomp, MH, OH, reduced by 5% is quite nice, plus the 85 (or is it 86? I forgot if it's rounded up or down) stamina you'd give to the tanks if you specced entirely into Improved Imp).

But if you're not going to spec into Shadow's Embrace 5/5, Malediction 3/3, and Improved Imp 2-3/3 you're a wasted space in a raid. Affliction will always perform below a properly played Destruction Warlock with equal gear. Even at my level of progression (which is below yours), this holds true.

Also a shaman only benefits you with his Wrath of Air totem, and his Bloodlust/Heroism is largely lost on Affliction (with the high emphasis on DoTs that it has), while a Destruction Warlock gains a 30% (approximately, if no life tapping is needed of course) direct DPS increase along with Wrath of Air.

 

Arelenda

"I choose to be affliction, foregoing personal dps in order to provide benefits to other people" and "how can I argue for a spot in the dps group" are kind of mutual exclusive. Affliction simply doesn't scale well, and your raid leader is making the most sane choice.

You don't benefit much from crit, or hit. And while you do benefit from extra spellpower and heroism-haste, destro locks simply gain more from it.


If you insist on wanting your question answered instead of us having to explain why it is a bad question, then here is your answer:

Q: how do I convince my raid leader to put me in the dps group?
A: I suggest bribery, blackmail, or learning how to play a drum.

 

Arelenda