PVE Raiding Compendium - Page 91

Noree · 04/03/08, 8:36 PM

Quick question...

Taking into consideration how much of a buff Spell Haste got in 2.4,

Say you are a Warlock in a raid environment spec'd 0/21/40 with about 30% crit, 1550 shadow damage and 16% haste rating (fully raid buffed, full consumables, etc.)

What would be more preferable...

A gain of 87 spell damage or a gain of 56 haste rating (approximately 3.50%)

• frmorrison · 04/03/08, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Noree

What would be more preferable...

A gain of 87 spell damage or a gain of 56 haste rating (approximately 3.50%)

The spreadsheet can tell you, but even as Destro the 87 damage is better.

Arnath · 04/03/08, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Lite

Hi, I was wondering what my warlocks spell hit cap would be if I only had 1/5 in suppression.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. The hit cap is always 16% for level 73 mobs, points in Suppression don't change that in any way.

Please read existing threads before posting.

Lite · 04/03/08, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Arnath

I don't really understand what you mean by this. The hit cap is always 16% for level 73 mobs, points in Suppression don't change that in any way.

Please read existing threads before posting.

After obtaining 76 hit rating with 5/5 Suppression, warlock dots are hit capped. Further extra hit rating only affects Shadow Bolts/Immolate, and is worth less than spell damage on a point-for-point basis.

Sorry, I must've misunderstood..

Ralyc · 04/04/08, 9:52 AM

hi, just a quick question

as a classic shadow-destro lock what increase the dps more.. the 2 12 spelldmg from enchanter or using drums of battle on cooldown ?

Thanahtos · 04/04/08, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Ralyc

hi, just a quick question

as a classic shadow-destro lock what increase the dps more.. the 2 12 spelldmg from enchanter or using drums of battle on cooldown ?

/facepalm

Use the spreadsheet.

Cronjob · 04/04/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lite

After obtaining 76 hit rating with 5/5 Suppression, warlock dots are hit capped. Further extra hit rating only affects Shadow Bolts/Immolate, and is worth less than spell damage on a point-for-point basis.

Sorry, I must've misunderstood..

Your question was not worded correctly. Your actual hit cap wont change with 1/5 suppression. The cap is always 10% for affliction 16% for destro. I think what you meant to ask was what will my hit rating be with 1/5 suppresion, which is 2%.

Arnath · 04/04/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Lite

After obtaining 76 hit rating with 5/5 Suppression, warlock dots are hit capped. Further extra hit rating only affects Shadow Bolts/Immolate, and is worth less than spell damage on a point-for-point basis.

Sorry, I must've misunderstood..

Like the above poster said, your question was worded oddly. With 1/5 Suppression, you have 2% to hit with dots so you need another 14% from items. This is something close to 168 hit rating (it's a little more than 168, I just used 12 hit rating = 1% hit as an approximation where really it's 12.something).

Parzifal · 04/04/08, 12:09 PM

Thanks to Arelenda and the others for your thoughtful replies to my questions and comments (except for one person, obviously.. lol). As has been typical here, some of the insights given were new to me and will be useful. I'll definitely respec demo now and try it out.

I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Mirya · 04/04/08, 12:12 PM

What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?

Faldrath · 04/04/08, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mirya

What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?

I still use DoTimer, actually. At least for me, it still works well in 2.4 (I don't use all of its modules, though, only DoTimer and Cooldowns).

Cronjob · 04/04/08, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Parzifal

Thanks to Arelenda and the others for your thoughtful replies to my questions and comments (except for one person, obviously.. lol). As has been typical here, some of the insights given were new to me and will be useful. I'll definitely respec demo now and try it out.

I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.

Gonna really depend on what you are farming and your gear really. I run 0/21/40 and farm in pve spec, most stuff dies to one or two bolts max.

Thanahtos · 04/04/08, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mirya

What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?

ClassTimer works great for me.

Arelenda · 04/04/08, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Parzifal

I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.

To be honest, I rarely farm. My funds come from having 3 alchemists transmute masters transmuting a primal earth to water each day. But when I do farm as 0/21/40, it's with a sacced Felhunter or Voidwalker. It's been ages since I farmed as anything else, but affliction will just dot everything in sight up and live through whatever damage they take through Siphon Life and Drain Life (and Dark Pact replacing Life Tap). When done right it's likely faster than Destro with less down time.

It'll be spawn rate, mob type and gear dependant, obviously.

With the current end game gear available (including MgP which has ridiculously good loot), most things outside die so fast that you spend most of your time moving from one target to the next.

Cohren · 04/04/08, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mirya

What type of mod is everyone using to keep track of curse and DOT timers these days? I used to use DoTimer for a long time, and it was great. But it hasn't been updated for the 2.4 patch. Are there any reliable DOT timers that are still being regularly updated?

Forte Warlock, even keeps track of other Warlock's ISB proc's.

Nicarras · 04/04/08, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Parzifal

First time poster here... You all have a very valuable collection of information here. Between this and Leulier's spreadsheet, I've learned an awful lot about fine tuning a lock.

First, a question: although there is a lot of discussion about the impact on ISB uptime to a raid's dps, this does not appear to be a particularly painless process via the spreadsheet. Is there a general rule of thumb for this? i.e., in SSC, generally 1% increased ISB uptime -> 20 dps or something of the kind? I'd like to be able to assess my total contribution to the raid more easily. Even a ballpark figure would tell me more than I know now.

I have an observation about a realistic casting sequence, something not currently addressed by the spreadsheet. Because being threat-capped is a real problem for me (I'll talk to this more below), I tend to begin fights with CoA, Corruption and Immolate, followed relatively soon by Lifetaps to keep my mana up near 100% so that once the tank firmly establishes aggro, I can spam SB for longer without worry for flying past him. After all, early on, an SB crit for 5-6k is a much larger percentage change in aggro than it is later on. As far as I can tell, while working with a "threat-challenged" tank, this is a good strategy. Any comments?

Also, I think it's worth noting if it hasn't already been said, Fire doesn't seem to me to be as viable as shadow in pre-T5 gear levels since +shadow is considerably easier to come by (viz., FSW, Ritssyn's, Dalaran, etc.)

Ok, one final question... but first some explanation... Though I enjoy raiding, my six week old daughter doesn't allow it much now. As such, I spend 95% of my time outside of raids and am consequently mired in slightly different issues than I might be with the guild raids. As my +shadow rose over 1200, I've found that most tanks in 5 and 10 man pugs (and even guild runs) are not the aggro-machines that raiding tanks are. As a result, my dps suffers greatly since I have to frequently wait for the tank to build aggro.

So my question is this: are there any tactics for 21/40 (other than what I mentioned above) that would mitigate the problem or should I respec to the attractive (and potentially more dps) 7/43/11 demo or something similar? Mind you, I'm most interested in non-raids, so if you all don't mind the brief diversion from raid theorycrafting, I'd appreciate some more generally applicable spec advice. Thanks in advance!

You dont have the gear for Destruction. For a raid you are actually hurting ISB by having your crit so low, and it gets magnified by each shadow priest you have in the raid with you as well.

Your best bet would be to spec UA for your 5/10 mans and that way juggling dots and random SB filler should keep you a little more manageable on your threat issues. Heck even PVE felguard would work, granted PVE felguard you still want a decent amount crit, which you are lacking.

You did find a problem though, it is very easy to scale our damage very quickly at 70. Its just all the other stats you need to work on now....hit/crit/stam/int, thats basically all you gain until you start getting into haste gear.

I remember waiting for tanks to 'catch up' in gear so I wouldnt be so threat capped...it sucked, but they do catch up

bigbell · 04/04/08, 11:41 PM

Hi guys,

Im having trouble with the spreadsheet i think. I understood from reading posts here that Shadow was still best for endgame warlocks. However, the spreadsheet seems to be telling me something different, incinerate spam is beating shadowbolt by a large margin. Around 200+dps more.

I guess my question is this. Am I doing something completely wrong when entering data into the spreadsheet? Or are others getting similar results? I have noticed on WWS parses on brutallus etc that there seems to be more warlocks going with fire.

If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Gumibear · 04/05/08, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Parzifal

Thanks to Arelenda and the others for your thoughtful replies to my questions and comments (except for one person, obviously.. lol). As has been typical here, some of the insights given were new to me and will be useful. I'll definitely respec demo now and try it out.

I do have one more follow-on question: what's the best spec / item choices for farming? Since I was 21/40, I've been sacrificing my voidwalker and have very much enjoyed the total lack of downtime that comes with it, spending about 7 seconds on each mob (2-3 SBs, wait for the last SB to land, if none of them crit then Shadowburn). Is there a more efficient way of doing this? With two instant DoTs and a mini-tank that follows me around in the form of my Felguard, I suspect that x/41+/x will be considerably better since multiple mobs may be taken on simultaneously. Farming in my mind is all about speed, so if there's a faster way to take things down, I'd be very interested to hear it.

A farming spec depends on gear. Felguard spec was great when I was in tier 5 gear since the 2 piece bonus would heal my pet. Now in full BT gear, I'm farming faster with 0/21/40. 2-3 incinerates kill just about anything I'd farm, and a sacrificed voidwalker makes my downtime non-existant. Even in 2 piece 5, I had to slow down from time to time to drain life to keep going or to summon a new Felguard after the last one died.

Originally Posted by bigbell

Hi guys,

Im having trouble with the spreadsheet i think. I understood from reading posts here that Shadow was still best for endgame warlocks. However, the spreadsheet seems to be telling me something different, incinerate spam is beating shadowbolt by a large margin. Around 200+dps more.

I guess my question is this. Am I doing something completely wrong when entering data into the spreadsheet? Or are others getting similar results? I have noticed on WWS parses on brutallus etc that there seems to be more warlocks going with fire.

If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Patch 2.4 changed Emberstorm in a way that changed our opinion of fire. In general, fire is better personal DPS, and a 200 DPS difference in favor of fire is not unreasonable.

Raid compositions like 3 warlocks with 2 shadow priests still warrant just 1 warlock using shadow bolt for better raid DPS via ISB.

ninielin · 04/05/08, 6:22 AM

200 + dps difference? mm wouldn't a SB build scale better anyway? ( haste/ + dmg?)

edit: I only get around 30 dps in favor of fire using the spreadsheet ( full BT/hyjal). Sounds like you forgot to change your pet when you switched the filler spell and kept imp for the shadow build.

galzohar · 04/05/08, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by ninielin

200 + dps difference? mm wouldn't a SB build scale better anyway? ( haste/ + dmg?)

edit: I only get around 30 dps in favor of fire using the spreadsheet ( full BT/hyjal). Sounds like you forgot to change your pet when you switched the filler spell and kept imp for the shadow build.

While it would be funny if that's the reason people got 200 more dps with fire than shadow, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Make sure you're enabling 5/5 scorch from fire mages (or otherwise why would you consider fire in the firstplace...) and use proper ISB modeling (raid ISB option and fill the stats of the shadow users in your raid in the raid ISB tab and check how much ISB DPS they lose when you swtich to fire). I think the default is no improved scorch on target in the spreadsheet.

clavarnway · 04/05/08, 11:24 AM

The dps difference between Fire and Shadow Destruction on the spreadsheet may not be mirrored in game play - Shadow Destruction, you just spam Shadow Bolt to match spreadsheet DPS, for Fire Destruction you have to make sure Immolate always hits as soon as it expires, and every Incinerate that hits has an Immolate on the target when it hits. Doesn't sound like much, but I raided as Affliction for a long ass time, and I'm very familiar with how being human can reduce dps from the spreadsheet.

Has anybody had any experience speccing Fire and trying it out, and seeing actual results? I would like to see how people are doing compared to their spreadsheet DPS as Fire.

Arelenda · 04/05/08, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by clavarnway

The dps difference between Fire and Shadow Destruction on the spreadsheet may not be mirrored in game play - Shadow Destruction, you just spam Shadow Bolt to match spreadsheet DPS, for Fire Destruction you have to make sure Immolate always hits as soon as it expires, and every Incinerate that hits has an Immolate on the target when it hits. Doesn't sound like much, but I raided as Affliction for a long ass time, and I'm very familiar with how being human can reduce dps from the spreadsheet.

Has anybody had any experience speccing Fire and trying it out, and seeing actual results? I would like to see how people are doing compared to their spreadsheet DPS as Fire.

I respecced and am currently testing it.

I did a ZA run as shadow destro, and since we had no shadow priests the next day, I tried it as fire destro. In both runs we got a boar mount.

I did somewhat less good with fire, but I can easily attribute it to me not being used to the spec. Another factor in ZA is trash. Having to start with Immolate is very inefficient on stuff that dies in seconds. I'm mentioning it because I thought that since Fire Destro can go both Shadow and Fire, I figured it'd be more versatile in 5/10mans where one of those is usually gimped due to no SP or Fire Mage present. Fire is not effective on things that are not worth Immolating.

It is however, not trivial to time your spells around Immolate. Where I used to be able to focus on timing my SB perfectly and watching what's going on with the fight, as Fire I had to try and time my Incinerates around my Immolate. Considering the dynamic haste in our ZA run (3 drum people and 3 shamans for Heroism) this wasn't that easy.

Another factor is gear. I had Soulfrost and was using green +59 fire damage boots from the AH to replace [Boots of the Shifting Nightmare].

In short, my experience:
- Playing fire effectively is harder than using Shadow effectively. On farm content this is hardly an issue though.
- It is a major pain to compare them fairly as it requires some regearing.
- Shadow and Fire are decently close, which shows good design on Blizzard's part.

I'm currently trying to rewrite ShadowSeer for 2.4 so I can measure ISB uptime in game accurately. This would help us decide what's better. For now I think both specs are definitely viable and reasonably close no matter what. Even if Fire turns out to be higher overall dps, Shadow definitely has some advantages that would mitigate that.

Flamingcloud · 04/05/08, 12:21 PM

Well fire vs shadow was already discussed fairly heavily in the other thread (another spreadsheet thread), and basically concluded there are very few circumstances in which having a fire lock is better, especially if you don't want to spam flame caps. To summarize..

Fire
Pro
- Higher Personal Dps

Con
- CoE always has to be up no matter how many fire mages, thus you always need atleast 3 locks.
- Extra debuff slots for immolates
- Numbers are going to be lower than spreadsheet due to no 100% immolate uptime unless you had more than 1 immo casting lock.
- Sucks if you have an affliction lock and a shadow destro lock, because 1.13 CoS will make shadow better
- Having to farm/buy flame caps
- Decreased isb uptime means that if you have 3 destro locks, probably only 1 can/should go fire
- No Netherprotection or Soul Leech
- paying for a sunfire enchant and getting a new cloak
- Less mana returned for shadowpriests due to less isb uptime
- There is more fire resistant/immune bosses (I know this hardly matters)
- You have to press more than 2 and watch DoTimer
- Higher Threat Generation

ninielin · 04/05/08, 1:18 PM