Chilenohellcat14

Thanks man. But i also have one more question. Is it theoretically possible for fury warrior to out-dps rogue? Most Hyjal/BT guilds i know, say that their fury warrior is bascially a monster.But one problem every fury warrior with that level gear and skill runs into, is aggro. Iv heard from a friend of mine on other server is, that his guild has a fury warrior who has done it before and CAN take out 10% of a bosses health in 30-45 secs. But he has to back out a good chunk of the fight because of his insane threat gain. But rogues have aggro dumping abilities (Fient/Vanish). As much as i respect rogue's DPS. Can a fury warrior beat him even with the insane aggro generation?

 

Koshnek

Just out of curiosity, why did you remove the gear input option in the latest spreadsheet? I thought it was pretty nice and convenient to be able to change a single piece of gear to see how it affects you.

Also, I run Vista and Excel 07, any idea why it gives me the error message "Excel encountered an error and had to remove some formatting to avoid corrupting the workbook. Please check your formatting carefully."? Will it affect the accuracy, or is there something I can change so that it loads correctly?

 

Gruntle

Come on, the purpose of getting better dps should not be to "out-dps" other classes just to gloat (maybe that's not why you want to beat rogues, but it sure sounds like that). The purpose should be to maximize your own dps while keeping up buffs/debuffs and stay alive. If you do that and manage to kill a boss the position on the dps meter is completely uninteresting in my opinion.

As to if fury warriors can do more damage than rogues. Of course they can, the total dps you do has much more with skill to do than anything else. If the rogue doesn't play well you will have no problems beating them, if it's the other way around you will "lose". Assuming equal skill and gear I assume that the rogue will do slightly more damage to single targets (while the warrior will easily win in multi-mob situations), the warrior is also contributing with Battle Shout (and possibly demo shout if specced that way).

This discussion would be better suited in another thread, it has nothing to do with the spreadsheet. As Apate said, use the spreadsheet to figure how how to maximize your own dps and quit worrying about beating the rogues. As to threat levels, make sure that you have Imp zerk stance and getting Salvation blessing. With that you should rarely have to worry about aggro (if your tank is good enough).

 

Gruntle

I believe the reason why the item sheets were removed from drALLCOM3's sheets were that they were a mess to update and that it was trickier to make them work in all possible programs (the new version is OO compatible). The new sheets are good to get a quick look at what happens when you do a small change to a stat, not so good to plan what gear you want to get and so on. If you still want the gear sheets, get Grim13's version of the sheet, latest version is just a few posts up.

 

Megalith

Thx for the updating of the spreadsheet, i rly appreciate it!

In the last version of the spreadsheet i had, Dragonstrike (tier3 bs 1-hand mace) was better for fury dps than S3-weapons, now its not. I guess its true then? Fuck, im getting rly dissapointed I like arena, but that i cant anything better for dps then S3-weapons (except warglaives then) rly takes the pve-spirit out of me


Edit: One thing, when i change armor of the pve taget my dps changes as well, but i can't find where i can see the dps vs a pvp target? Would be awesome if someone could point out what my apparently blind eyes cannot see =)

 

Barmbul

I have 2 good execute weapons and was lookin into the best enchants for them. I was leaning toward double potency because the 80 attack pwr would be on all the time but duel mongoose enchants would be really nice IF they proc'ed. Has anyone looked into this? All the old forum posts about it seem a little out dated.

May have answered my own question the dps sheet has a dps summary tab with a exec heading that is your theoretical execute dps right?

Armory profile

 

Machinator

I am not sure how much of this is viable but its something I would like to add to my own sheet at least. Spreadsheets assume that you get a certain amount of rage every cycle/second. Because it is averaged out over an infinite numbers of attacks(regardless of fight length) the sheet ends up using this as a constant. Obviously this isnt right, a string of misses doesnt cancel out a string of crits rage wise. So I am trying to figure out some way to account for this.

The only way I can think of is to determine the probability of each rage/cycle, which is a hell of a lot of variations even without bringing in flurry and such.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Gruntle

I've been thinking about this as well. The problems of using low hit rating and slow weapons (i.e. miss streaks causing missed cycles due to insufficient rage) is not modeled at all in the spreadsheet. I don't know how to incorporate this in the spreadsheet, perhaps the best thing would be to run some kind of swing simulator for different combinations of hit, crit and weapon speed and calculate rage generation from that, you could then calculate what percentage of 18 sec cycles have enough rage to do the BT/WW (-BS/Ramp). This "cycle uptime" should not vary by a lot is my guess, so perhaps you can make do with 5-10 combinations of weapon speed, 5-10 values of hit rating and 2-3 crit rating values (=> ~200 entries in a look-up table that can be included in the sheet). Should be quick enough to run in a swing simulator. I'm not a good enough coder to make one though.

The cycle uptime can just be multiplied by the cycle dps in the end to get the real dps out. Or multiply the cycle uptime by the full dps and the rest of the time with dps for an incomplete cycle.

 

Brissa

Id assume that executioner would still be the best MH enchant. Just because you happen to be sub 20 shouldnt change that.

 

Brissa

*edit because I cant read properly*
If you put that much work into making a functional swing simulator you might as well go the entire mile and do a full blown simulator instead which would be vastly more interesting than a spreadsheet anyway.

 

dr_AllCOM3

Actually I'm trying to write an addon at the moment for the whole thing. Even just MH+OH autoattacks with 25 (or 5000) repetitons are very streaky.

 

Megalith

Hm, that Dragonstrike now outputs significantly less dps than with the spreadsheet from 4.th Jan. Is it correct? Before it was better than S3, now its worse. Sry for repeating myself.

 

Gruntle

Megalith: Dragonstrike was bugged and had the haste applied twice in one version of the sheets, people discussed this a few pages back I seem to remember.

Brissa: Yeah maybe, but it's a significantly bigger set of variables to try in the full set of stats, in that case you'd make a full combat simulator that mimics WoW itself. Seems like a lot more work than to do 10000+ random swings with 200 combinations of variables. The issue with spotty rage generation likely varies quite slowly (but I'm not sure of course), thus 200 combinations would perhaps be enough.

 

Gruntle

Sounds nice, let us know if you need some testing done.

 

Dimpster

Hey, I was just going through the spreadsheet recently and I found it hard to believe that season 2 fast offhand(axe) would be such a significant if anymore dps then swiftsteel bludgeon? and if I recall swiftsteel bludgeon used to be much higher dps on some of the old sheets.But if it's true I guess the key word is "old"

 

Gruntle

That must be a bug, there is no way the s2 fast offhand can be better than Swiftsteel bludgeon. In my spreadsheet I get 10 more dps from using Swiftsteel over s2 fast OH (the s2 slow onehand is about equal to Swiftsteel in the my sheet due to being slow). In fact, Fury from ZA is a better OH than the s2 fast OH.

What version of the spreadsheet are you using? (I wish people asking questions would always write what version they are using, it makes answering a fair bit easier)

 

RalphMaccio

Do you have access to Rising Tide or another slow season 2 Axe? I believe they would both be better options for you because of the extra expertise rating.

 

Shha

I tried searching this thread, but couldnt find anything (call me stupid :P). Is there a reason why the spreadsheet shows offhand mongoose as extremely small upgrade (along the lines of 0.2% of your dps?). I mean 0.2% over no enchant seems crazy low. I ran some small test in blasted lands and my OH mongoose seemed to be up around 30% of the time. Granted it wasnt a long test (in range of 1000 swings or so), so Im not claiming to have a final answer on uptime. However it sure indicates way higher dps influence. Mh mongoose in spreadsheet seem to have around 10 times bigger impact, which again seems strange - even assuming double uptime because of instants, its not even close to 10 times difference.

 

rayijin

Possible Reasons:

1) Blasted lands mobs are low level ==> more OH hits due to less miss chance ==> higher mongoose uptime than actual
2) Currently, no specials can proc OH mongoose ==> no impact from using specials compared to not
3) Are you switching between mongoose and potency on the OH, or comparing to no enchant whatsoever? You do state it's from nothing to mongoose but try double checking.

Just guessing, as I don't have the spreadsheet available to me right now.

 

Shha

1) It doesnt explain TENFOLD difference. I actually took my uptime (30% it seems to stick over longer sample) took away 15% (to account for dodges/missed) which means arounr 25% and added 25% of (120 agi 32 haste) so 30 agi/8 haste. This is very "unscientific" and rough estimate, and i wouldnt try to impose anything else. Still the difference is between 30 dps and 2 dps. 15 times difference is way more off then I would expect my estimate to be. There is something else there.

2) Im aware of that, however my testing included mongoose on OH, and executioner on MH. The measured uptime was the mongoose proc. So im not sure how it would affect it.

3) That would maybe explain it - if someone could confirm it, it would be kind of answer I look for in 1st place. However im not too sure its that. The way spreadsheet works it has checkboxes for executioner/mongoose on MH, and checkbox for mongoose on OH. The mainhand mongoose clearly provides decent dps boost, so does executioner (and MHproc rate for fury isnt THAT much higher - not 20ish times more ). You can even check both boxes , so they dont exclude themselves, and i doubt It assumes potency (would go against all the spreadsheet simplification - you can enter stats from armory in most cases, but for some reason you would have to manually substract potency effect if you had it on?).

P.S to show another set of numbers, "manually" adding 20 str/40 ap (to emulate potency) gives a 20+ dps boost for me as opposed to 2dps from mongoose. So unless the idea 3) is correct, it has to be wrong (i dont believe in potency totally outclassing mongoose on OH - it seems debatable in best case).

 

dr_AllCOM3

It was bugged, get a newer version.

 

Shha

Frankly it was my 1st impression too. However i did download the 2.07 (its newest right?) before posting and the problem persisted. It stays for me in both OpenOffice and Excel 2007

 

DarkS

I have exactly the same problem. I'm using latest Spreadsheet version. I tried Grim13 version too and same problem. Mongoose OH seems to suck compared to Potency.

 

Gruntle

Offhand mongoose is working fine in my Openoffice sheet (post 380).

Probably a bug introduced in one of the later versions.

Edit: I think I found the bug. I believe Mongoose OH was erroneously set to be always on, due to a mislink in one of the cells. All of this is in dr_ALLCOM3's sheet without items (I can't use Grim13's sheet in OO).

If you check the cell for buffed agility (you have to unprotect the sheet first and then you can change the text color to black or whatever you prefer), C5, you'll se this:

[top](B5+IF($Buffs.$E$8;18.9;0)+IF($Buffs.$E$16;77;0)*IF($Buffs.$E$17;1.15;1)+IF($Buffs.$B $8;35;0)+IF(B25;IF(F21

1;120*N30;120*Q34))+IF(F25;120*Q35))*IF($Buffs.$E$9;1+0.1;1)

I bolded the interesting part, this points to the cell F25, if this cell is "true" (i.e. has a value 1) the mongoose OH agility is added. F25 is set to 0 if F21 is 1 and the other way around (a flag used for 2h weapons). OH mongoose should of course also check that the mongoose flag (in E25) is set. A quick fix should be to change cell F25 to:

[top]IF(AND($F$21>1;E25

1);1;0)

The mongoose speed seems to be correctly modeled (it points to E25 rather than F25 to start with).

 

Shha

While I must admit i dont know if your fix is 100% correct, it does put the OH mongoose in an expected range Thanks.