Bronwyn

Dear Nite_Moogle, I certainly don't want to appear as your enemy. There is a thread right here which discusses weapon skill and expertise. Those guys at least assume that expertise will remove dodge and replace it by a MISS - effectively raising your hit cap ...

I seriously HOPE that you are right. But honestly, don't you think this would be rather overpowered?

2 meagre talent points would result in
-4 dodge (especially effective for yellow damage)
and +4 hitrating for white damage.

This would precision look ridiculous, as precision is basically important for white hits (assuming you already have 9% to hit from your gear) and costs 3 talent points for 3% to hit ...

I would love to believe you, but I fear this won't happen.

 

◊ Fellwraith

More regular white hits will cannibalize flurry charges a bit, so it may be slightly less depending on your crit rate, but it's close enough.

 

Graul

This only makes sense if you are somehow replacing crits with hit, not simply having more white attacks dodged less.

 

Paa

Maybe you mis read my post but anyway,

With capped hit you can still have your attacks yellow and white dodged by the boss.. it can only be removed with weapon skill/expertise.

This talent if it goes through as Kalgan states will reduce the chance for all your attacks to be dodged by 4% (huge).

Correct me if im wrong..

and whats wrong with 20% hit in fury gear? I can barely get rid of the stuff all the T6 gear has tons of it on.

 

Korlong

Frankly it would be hugely pessimistic to assume removing dodged attacks converts them to misses. I'm going on the assumption that it adds to your white hits, as even in the event that this is not what the talent does at the moment, it is surely the intended effect.

Well, you're protection at the moment, but i'd be curious to see how much you are penalizing your other stats by stacking that much hit (300 or so?).

 

Charsi

What possible point would there be in a rating that converted one type of non-damage to another type of non-damage?

Also, [Melee/Hunters] 2.3 Patch Notes - Weapon skill to Expertise is the thread and the post which seems to suggest that dodges/parries are replaced by ordinary hits.

What I would personally want to know is if Expertise does anything at all about glancing. My guess is it won't.

 

Dralmoo

If it converted dodge to misses it would allow someone near at hitcap (ie Rogues) to increase their hit rating to then convert those misses to hits and thus more damage.

That would be silly, but not useless.

Since the new Warrior talent will be straight -dodge, not +expertise, and isn't on PTR yet, you can't say for sure which way it will work, but it's certainly implied it will convert the dodges to hits.

 

Paa

20.79% hit
2101AP + Battleshout trinket
30.79% crit

Unbuffed i dont consider these stats penalized. I'm not using any hit gems or any hit trinkets,

 

Darkrenown

And in that thread there's a post confirming it turns dodges into hits.

 

PSGarak

And whether it turns dodges into hits or misses has absolutely no bearing on the original claim that -dodge% is useless for yellow attacks when you reach the hit cap. Hit does not reduce dodge. -dodge% reduces dodge.

 

Nevvy

You can't turn dodges into misses that is not how the attack table works. Even considering that this might be the case is just going to further spread the stupid idea.

A hit is anything which isn't a crit, miss, dodge, parry, or crush.

When you get 490 defense you are doing it because you turn crits into hits, when you stack hit rating (which is better viewed as -miss) you are turning misses into hits, and when you stack expertise you are turning parrys and dodges into hits.

 

• Latito

Re Expertise:
First off, I would expect a class which DEPENDS on being crit immune in some situations to know the hit table a little better.
Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
Less dodges means more hits. Plain and simple. Unless you have so much crit that you have maxed our your attack table and do not hit at all, dodges will all turn into hits. Your crit % will remain the same, as with glancing for white attacks.
Sorry that probably came out wrong, but yea.. its not even a "what if" scenerio - its a well known effect.



Re Non-Plate gear:
[Leggings of Murderous Intent] - take em.

[Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] - The only offset piece that IS better than our T5 chest. It is very often the chest rogues will use outside of T5, if the rogue actually wanted to use T5 in the first place. Personally I'd only pick up the T5 gloves (which I did).. but some rogues like the rest of the set - minus the chest. Bloodsea > T5 for rogues.

[Midnight Chestguard] - Worse than T6.. but you don't get T6 until you've beat the game and it doesn't matter anymore. I realize this goes the same for all classes and T6 chests, but it is the best pre-illidan chest for rogues. Nethershadow is comparable, but definately behind.

[Deadly Cuffs] (the leather bracers from Rage) - 2nd best rogue wrists, by a VERY small margin behind [Insidious Bands] from Teron.

[Shadowmaster's Boots] - Best rogue boots in game.
[Grips of Damnation] - Post haste nerf, take em.
[Cursed Vision of Sargeras] - Best rogue helm in-game.
[Mantle of Darkness] - Best rogue pre-T6 shoulders in-game.
[Shadow-walker's Cord] - One of the top 3 belts for rogues, not THE best though really.
[Don Alejandro's Money Belt] - One of the top 3 belts for rogues, disputed to be best by some.

Obviously I can't say "Don't take these items before rogues!". I would hope however that you realize what you are taking from your rogues - a class that does more dmg than yours and shouldn't be nearly as close to threat-capped as you. I'm sure some warriors don't care - an upgrade for them is an upgrade even if it screws someone else out of their ONLY option. This post was more for the warriors who would like to be a bit more considerate and pick up plate pieces or wait for rogues to get leather first. Hopefully this gives you a bit more of a grasp on what exactly you're rogues are losing out on (or not needing)

 

Emeraude

Even assuming Kings it's pretty close vs T6

Midnight vs Onslaught(assuming Kings for both and 3x +10 str gems)

172 AP vs 183 AP
2.08 Crit vs 1.12 Crit
29 Hit Rating vs 16 Hit Rating
0 Armor Pen, vs 126 Armor Pen

Basically 11 AP/126 armor pen vs .96% Crit/13 hit Rating.

 

• Latito

Note: I am a rogue. I would be comparing to [Slayer's Chestguard] in that case.

And yes, this is certainly one of the close cases where the piece is quite close to the best piece for rogues. That said, Rogue 4-piece T6 is pretty good (its no 2-piece, but still) and the helm off of illidan IS better than our T6 helm, so the non-set slot is already spoken for. Taking T6 helm and this chest would certainly be 2nd choice.. not far behind, and definitely ahead of any other setup.

 

badass

I just downloaded the DPS warrior spreadsheet and couldn't find anywhere to put in a set item bonus. My warrior is using the Ragesteel shoulders and gloves, and having the 2 items equipped gives a STR bonus. I had to put them into the sheet manually. Am I missing something?

Thanks!

 

Eliminate2

The spreadsheet doesn't model any sets besides the tiered sets. So ya, you have to input them down at the bottom, where it says manually.

 

badass

Yes I know that you have to put them in manually but I was asking about how to put in the bonus for when you have the required items equppied of the set.

 

Chimera

What you say is 100% true for white damage swings.

It has been shown on these very boards that for rogues (and there's no reason to believe it works any different for warriros) that special attacks are on a two-roll system, not on the one-roll system that white hits use.

 

Machinator

Has anyone actually tested how the two roll system works though? I never saw anything that fit the data. I would think that dodge/parry showing up on both tables would be significant but it never comes up.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Chimera

Not that I've seen. Blocked crits make it obvious that yellow attacks have at least two rolls, but it's a lot harder to test how it works with parry/dodge. I believe the general assumption is:
roll1 - miss/dodge/parry/block/land
roll2 - hit/crit

It would be pretty difficult to completely confirm that table, but we can say with certainty that blocks and crits are not rolled on the same table for yellow attacks.

 

Darkrenown

Surely you would just had 30 str (or whatever) to your stats?

 

Hidden

I don't think you have to tell anyone what not to take over a Rogue. I for myself have been our guild's #1 damage Rogue and Rogue Officer from MC to Naxx, believe me, I'm not taking every upgrade I can grab but there are non-plate items a Warrior can simply get more or the same benefit out of, for example Midnight Chestguard and there are times your Rogues don't need them anymore. We currently have 1-3 active Rogues (1 is 100% active, 1 doesn't have Hyjal/BT pres yet as he was ill for some weeks and 1 who's pretty new and not taken to every raid yet) and often there are "Rogue items" no Rogue in the raid needs, so why not take them if they're better than your Plate items?

 

Gaise

Do we know yet whether the required personal rating for a season 3 weapon needs to be maintained to use the weapon, or just acquired to purchase the weapon?