[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond - Page 34

bagelbite · 03/15/08, 1:28 AM

Originally Posted by Grim13

***edit***
It also just occured to me that a web-based solution could be written as a sim rather than as a spreadsheet, though I am not certain that would be a good idea.... I have a feeling that the CPU demands of such a thing could escalate rather quickly, if there was anything resembling a decent amount of traffic. Assuming that is the case, then I don't see any way to have a "sim" solution without involving downloadable content. Not that that is a bad thing, but right now, the niche I am looking at is cross-platform and out-of-game. Basically, I am working on something to keep people's minds occupied while they're at work. The funny part, I suppose, is that after reading a few html, javascript, php, xml and AJAX tutorials yesterday and today, I have a solid idea how to code the guts of the thing, but still need to learn how to make it presentable (not ugly) as a web page. What's really sad is that I haven't played WoW in over a month, but I still spend hours and hours on these projects.

I definately wouldnt recomend doing a sim calculation using your webserver. Too much load. You could do a sim in javascript/flash, although it wouldnt be too fast. A java applet would be faster(runs on the client machine, embed in a webpage), although it's not as well supported.

As far as making an html user interface pretty, I'm sure you'll have plenty of volunteers to do that for you once you get some functionality going.

Lambach · 03/15/08, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by Shha

My math wont be "wrong", just different. My point wasnt to prove that mongoose is better then executioner. Point was to prove that under maybe not very common, but still realistic circumstances, mongoose MIGHT be better. That + the fact mongoose is modelled at around 2/3 of its effectiveness. I just suggested it would be worth to fix the model mongoose is using, not only for the sake of it, but possible actual applications. Some guilds in SSC dont use recklessness and their warriors dont have any or low ArP.

As for DUAL executioner , it doesnt stack. My uptime meter shows around 45% uptime for MH 30% for OH. Combined they should be at 1-0.55x0.7 = 61.5%. Therefore the extra executioner adds around 16.5% more uptime, or in other words, "works at half efficiency". The math clearly shows its not really the case of dual Executioner winning then as mongoose is at 0.75% effectiveness of executioner, and not 0.5% or around.

Using spreadsheet values of uptime at 33% for MH and 23% for OH or around that, dual executioner is at 1-0.67x0.77= 48% or 15% increase. 15% of Executioner uptime, is still lower then 23% uptime of mongoose although by a small margin.

Although yes, maybe for very low geared teams, executioner might be worse then mongoose. However, theres no reason for a team, unless they have VERY few melee to not use COR, its just bad raid make up. But I guess, yes, if you have a poor raid leader that doesnt have COR up, and you're gear is pretty awful, with no arp from weapons or easy to aquire badge rewards, then yes, use mongoose. But that should be a rather small population, and I'm not sure it really even needs mentioning.
Your math about % uptime on mongoose vs ex did nothing to disprove double ex being better then mongoose OH. You just threw out some numbers. Even if uptime is less, the shear value of ex vs. mongoose is superior.

To the person talking about potency offhand. I'm sorry, but thats just garbage. Potency is a cheap fix, but definitly the worse of your 3 enchant options.

Graul · 03/15/08, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by Shha

Well graul way i see it potency=22str with kings.

With uptime i calculated (30%) mongoose is 40 agi with kings and around 12haste for me, for OH that is.

I honestly doubt i have THAT much downtime. IN straight numbers, 40 agi = 34 str. 12 haste = 18 str.

Mongoose provides 52 str equivalent on a straight tank and spank. Are you suggesting my effective downtime is 60% of dps time? I doubt it. Granted with the numbers from spreadsheet (22% uptime). Mongoose is only around 39 st equivalent. But even then, 20 str vs 39 seems way more then downtime would support.

30% uptime on a "tank and spank" fight. Notice that I said not every fight allows you to sit there on a target for 100% of the time, nor are you even always allowed to hit something, even when not having to move? There is also more to a raid than simply doing the max possible DPS given the most Warrior friendly encounters disregarding everything else. If that is all you are interested in, then I'm sure those numbers will help with your cause. I'm not arguing what would work on paper and in a vacuum, but raids are a bit more dynamic than that. Similarly it's also why being an Arms build on trash is so infuriating sometimes.

To the person talking about potency offhand. I'm sorry, but thats just garbage. Potency is a cheap fix, but definitly the worse of your 3 enchant options.

It has nothing to do with the cost. And the people that keep replying to my comment seem to be omitting specific points. Like I said, I'm not arguing about what has the potential to do the best DPS for specific fights. You keep looking at it as though there are zero variables at all in raiding. You never get stunned or CC'd, you never have to run out of AE or even run out and bandage. You never have a proc happen, but then can't reach your target until it only has a few seconds left etc. Just because your uptime is a specific %, that doesn't mean it's actually being used the entire time it's up. And if you want to get technical about what the spreadsheet says, it shows Mongoose on my off hand as being a whopping 10 DPS more than Potency, and that's assuming 100% usage of it's uptime.

Shha · 03/15/08, 9:59 AM

And if you want to get technical about what the spreadsheet says, it shows Mongoose on my off hand as being a whopping 10 DPS more than Potency, and that's assuming 100% usage of it's uptime.

Ok, but thats because spreadsheets ignore haste, and is the main reason i posted in first place. Glad you mention it, because it supports my stand. Mongoose modelling needs to be improved, or it leads to false conclusions, like in this case.

Currently in spreadsheet using their modelling of uptime, Mongoose on OH provides 28 dps. Potency provides 23. Under such circumstances, I could actually agree with Graul on some fights (Id still go with mongoose in general - Boss fights require no to low movement atm, with maybe exception given to Illidari council).

However if you take the haste into account (using 22% uptime we model it at 22%x31.4x1.1(1.1=my average haste value)= ~8 haste. After adding it manually Mongoose Oh ramps up to 39.6 dps.

WIthout haste Mongoose shows up as around 20% more effective. That is enough to really consider Graul argumentation. With haste taken into account, Mongoose shows up as 75% more effective. That In my opinion trumps his arguments, and proves mongoose is best fit for OH. Honestly I dont lose almost HALF of my mongoose procs in vain. Not even close.

Liar · 03/15/08, 10:31 AM

Is it actually proven now that haste increase weapon procs? Last time I read up on that noone knew for sure (one camp saying it increased procs, the other said PPMs would adjust to your haste so it would stay the same with lots of haste).

Shha · 03/15/08, 12:33 PM

Well I havent really tried it with different setups. I can say after hours of blasted lands testing, OH mongoose according to UM was around 30-33% depending on day. Granted , i dont miss those mobs, but on other hand i have no heroism/haste pots and such. with 10% miss 3.6% dodge, but average of lets say 7% haste from heroism/haste, id say it still lands around 30%.

Gruntle · 03/15/08, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Shha

Well graul way i see it potency=22str with kings.

With uptime i calculated (30%) mongoose is 40 agi with kings and around 12haste for me, for OH that is.

I honestly doubt i have THAT much downtime. IN straight numbers, 40 agi = 34 str. 12 haste = 18 str.

Mongoose provides 52 str equivalent on a straight tank and spank. Are you suggesting my effective downtime is 60% of dps time? I doubt it. Granted with the numbers from spreadsheet (22% uptime). Mongoose is only around 39 st equivalent. But even then, 20 str vs 39 seems way more then downtime would support.

While I agree that Mongoose is better than Potency (albeit by a smaller margin than people realise), I strongly disagree with the SEP values you are using. 40 agi = 34 str? Agi is nowhere near that good. Not in any of the spreadsheets, and not in any gear that I've tried (granted, I might not have tried the very best setups). Normally you'd get that 1 agi ~ 0.65 SEP (which is what you get if you assume 1 crit = 1 SEP and 22.1/33 factor for agi vs crit rating). And 12 haste is no where near 18 str. In the sheets you can easily find that 1 haste rating is about 0.7-0.8 SEP (was >1 before haste nerf though).

Using these more realistic SEP values, Mongoose would be worth around 35 str, so still better than Potency (even if the uptime is lower).

edit: The haste from mongoose has been modeled in the sheets for at least 6 months. I don't know why you're claiming that it's not modeled. It's modeled in the sheet by landsoul and it's modeled in drALLCOM3's sheet (which is what Grim13 based his sheet on, so I severly doubt that the mongoose haste is not in there). In drALLCOM3's sheet you can find the Mongoose haste in cell N43 in the Buffed DPS page.

Shha · 03/15/08, 4:40 PM

Well , im looking into it now, now that you said. What I did to claim its not modelled is simple.

Step 1) I added mongoose to the weapon and observed how the agility cell changes.
Step 2) I took away mongoose replacing with nothing, and changed the appropriate agility field to get same value in agility cell.
Step 3) I compared dps, from step 1 and 2

In case of grim/niuta spreadsheet it seems to be exactly same in step 3, which supports the lack of haste.

As for SEP values, yea my bad. I used my SEP values from sheet i kept the best sunwell gear, instead of the current one.
Haste for my "target gear" is at 1.51SEP , and agility is around 0.83str and 0.73 crit.
In current set with all consumables/buffs (like most of the time for me), Haste is only at 1.21 str (And yes its 2nd best stat past ArP, better then crit/ap/str , which is somehow normal at this point - I consider my setup best non-warglaive possible, and haste ramps up with gear), Agility is around 0.74 crit (crit is almost=str).

With these values in mind its more like 30 str for agility, and 14.5 for haste. 44.5 then.

Haste has not been a "bad" stat ever, and i really cant see the point when it would be only worth 0.8 SeP. It surpassed str/crit quiet a while ago for me.

Gruntle · 03/15/08, 7:17 PM

I did the same thing in my slightly modified Niuta sheet (I haven't touched the Mongoose modeling). I got a small dps difference between adding the agility manually and choosing Mongoose (Mongoose had a bit more dps from the haste). Also, the average mainhand speed went down a little bit when having Mongoose, which to me suggests that it is indeed modeled. It might be that the modeling is done incorrectly but the haste is in there. Which verswion of the sheet are you using and are you sure that you recalculate the dps between changes? drALLCOM3/Niuta's sheet can be very unstable when changing Mongoose and Flurry.

I calculated SEP values in landsouls sheet (which btw is working excellently now for me with a newer OO version, looking great landsoul!) and my modified Niuta sheet. I get 1 haste = 0.75 sep in both sheets. Maybe my gear is too bad (SSC/TK lvl), but it feels weird that the value of haste would be doubled when getting better gear.

Shha · 03/15/08, 7:53 PM

I mostly use grims spreadsheet as its most useful for me. Recalculating item stats between different possibilities annoy me in Niutas one. However i did check it in niuta spreadsheet 2.07. And well, haste seems good even with ssc gear, however it depends on buffs. When i removed LoTP , "switched" enh shaman for resto, removed expose weakness/hunters mark, removed ret paladin, imp FF, and my ArP to "model" SSC gear with average buffs, i did get with haste to around 0.8 sep.

As for landsoul version, i havent checked it yet, mostly because I didnt had OO. Im d/l it now though.

Grayson Carlyle · 03/15/08, 10:37 PM

Are you two comparing Arms vs Fury? Arms, while still swinging over 2.5 gets a much higher SEP from haste than Fury does, which has a lot of damage limited by cooldowns.

Graul · 03/16/08, 12:37 AM

Using these more realistic SEP values, Mongoose would be worth around 35 str, so still better than Potency (even if the uptime is lower).

So, a 30% - 40% uptime of a buff that ends up being around 35 str is overall better than a buff that is 24 str (UR) 100% of the time? You already stated that the gap between the two buffs is much smaller than people seem to realize, yet still think it's better overall? On a static fight where you never move and never get interrrupted, I can't argue about that, but like I've been saying, the entirety of the raid is never like that.

Shha · 03/16/08, 2:37 AM

Originally Posted by Graul

So, a 30% - 40% uptime of a buff that ends up being around 35 str is overall better than a buff that is 24 str (UR) 100% of the time? You already stated that the gap between the two buffs is much smaller than people seem to realize, yet still think it's better overall? On a static fight where you never move and never get interrrupted, I can't argue about that, but like I've been saying, the entirety of the raid is never like that.

Why do you add 4 str to potency? I understand UR and kings, but SEP values are just that. If SEP values show 35 str equivalent to mongoose, then UR and Kings applies to that too. You cant add it to one and not to other.

As i said, my bad on using sunwell SEP values (although its some pointer of where it will head ).
So my estimate for
sunwell - mongoose=52Str\
current gear = 44 str
Low estimate by Gruntle = 35 str

vs

20 str of potency.

So im asking again, which fight requires you to move so much that even the lowest number (35str) is surpassed by potency. Unless you "waste" almost half of your mongoose procs, its still better even with worst estimate. Tell me which boss fight, or which trash pull gives you so much downtime on attacking. I really think losing 25% of mongoose time is already a very far estimate. And in this case 27str equivalent would be better to surpass potency.

Graul · 03/16/08, 4:37 AM

Originally Posted by Shha

Why do you add 4 str to potency? I understand UR and kings, but SEP values are just that. If SEP values show 35 str equivalent to mongoose, then UR and Kings applies to that too. You cant add it to one and not to other.

Wasn't really considering the agility gained from Kings or the crit and minor haste being affected by the increased AP through UR.

So im asking again, which fight requires you to move so much that even the lowest number (35str) is surpassed by potency. Unless you "waste" almost half of your mongoose procs, its still better even with worst estimate. Tell me which boss fight, or which trash pull gives you so much downtime on attacking. I really think losing 25% of mongoose time is already a very far estimate. And in this case 27str equivalent would be better to surpass potency.

Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor and Archimonde ALL have CC or AE that can, and often do take you out of combat for brief periods of time throughout the whole fight. Sometimes you can get lucky with them and barely ever have to move, other times you are not so lucky. Najentus has his shell, which negates damage for a couple of seconds until your raid heals up and you break it. Not everyone has melee chase Supremus around during the kite phase, although it's possible, but there are still plenty of times you have to be away from him other than just that. Mother has her random ports (which you can get hit with zero times, or multiple), Council has rough AE quite often and with Illidan, it's just a matter of the phases. There are PLENTY of examples as to why you will never be taking advantage of a Mongoose proc 100% of the time, because you will never have it proc as soon as you hit a target for the first time, then fade right before you have to leave on even close to a consistent basis. You also do kill trash during the raid, and while many scoff that trash matters, it does. Otherwise the whole raid could just afk teleport to every boss.

Polishedhead · 03/16/08, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by Graul

Rage Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor and Archimonde ALL have CC or AE that can, and often do take you out of combat for brief periods of time throughout the whole fight. Sometimes you can get lucky with them and barely ever have to move, other times you are not so lucky. Najentus has his shell, which negates damage for a couple of seconds until your raid heals up and you break it. Not everyone has melee chase Supremus around during the kite phase, although it's possible, but there are still plenty of times you have to be away from him other than just that. Mother has her random ports (which you can get hit with zero times, or multiple), Council has rough AE quite often and with Illidan, it's just a matter of the phases. There are PLENTY of examples as to why you will never be taking advantage of a Mongoose proc 100% of the time, because you will never have it proc as soon as you hit a target for the first time, then fade right before you have to leave on even close to a consistent basis. You also do kill trash during the raid, and while many scoff that trash matters, it does. Otherwise the whole raid could just afk teleport to every boss.

You can't really say Archimonde. Intercept works fine against air burst and the chance of a flame going under Archi making you unable to melee are slim.

Even with the fact that you're in and out often on alot of bosses, usually on bosses where DPS really matters it's a straight up tank & spank. Bosses where you're moving / not attacking alot are more technically beaten. The question is though, even when you're in and out often like some of the bosses you mentioned, is Mongoose still better then? i'd guess it is.

Graul · 03/16/08, 4:48 AM

Originally Posted by Polishedhead

You can't really say Archimonde. Intercept works fine against air burst and the chance of a flame going under Archi making you unable to melee are slim.

Even with the fact that you're in and out often on alot of bosses, usually on bosses where DPS really matters it's a straight up tank & spank. Bosses where you're moving / not attacking alot are more technically beaten. The question is though, even when you're in and out often like some of the bosses you mentioned, is Mongoose still better then? i'd guess it is.

You can say archimonde, it's just that Warriors have it the easiest of all the classes on this fight. Intercept is fine, but it does nothing for a curving fire that travels right through the melee. It doesn't happen all of the time, but there are some fights with some freak fires that keep melee out for 10 - 20 seconds at a time and sometimes more than once. That's not even counting being air bursted when intercept is on cooldown. And if Mongoose is supposed to scale moderately with Sunwell gear, I'd probably end up getting it, but right now I just don't see any reason to, especially when the DPS gap is so small on fights where you actually get to hit something the entire time that it doesn't honestly matter.

Also, off topic, but did Blizzard recently change the stats on the Onslaught boots? The first time I looked they were not very impressive to me, but then someone recently mentioned them being the best boots in 2.4, and I looked at them again and they seemed improved.

Polishedhead · 03/16/08, 4:58 AM

Originally Posted by Graul

You can say archimonde, it's just that Warriors have it the easiest of all the classes on this fight. Intercept is fine, but it does nothing for a curving fire that travels right through the melee. It doesn't happen all of the time, but there are some fights with some freak fires that keep melee out for 10 - 20 seconds at a time and sometimes more than once. That's not even counting being air bursted when intercept is on cooldown. And if Mongoose is supposed to scale moderately with Sunwell gear, I'd probably end up getting it, but right now I just don't see any reason to, especially when the DPS gap is so small on fights where you actually get to hit something the entire time that it doesn't honestly matter.

We have berserker rage, we can stand soo close to fires without danger that the chances of us being unable to melee are extremely slim.

The difference currently on stationary tank & spank bosses is pretty huge, relatively speaking, grinding the few hundred gold it takes is easy.

Graul · 03/16/08, 5:08 AM

Originally Posted by Polishedhead

We have berserker rage, we can stand soo close to fires without danger that the chances of us being unable to melee are extremely slim.

The difference currently on stationary tank & spank bosses is pretty huge, relatively speaking, grinding the few hundred gold it takes is easy.

I didn't mention fears at all, I said curving fires that run through melee. I also don't see 10 DPS (total, not +10 DPS before calculations) a huge difference, and in my current gear that's what it's showing. Just splitting hairs, but that's my perspective on the subject. I like having consistent DPS through the entire raid, not just having the ability to outperform on the perfect scenario.

Shha · 03/16/08, 8:47 AM

Originally Posted by Graul

Wasn't really considering the agility gained from Kings or the crit and minor haste being affected by the increased AP through UR.

But the SEP calculations does it for you already. Spreadsheets take 1 agility added to base stats, multiply it by kings and check the dps gain. Then they take 1 str and multiply it by ALL the buffs you select including UR Kings and imp zerker, and check dps. Then they compare the 2 values. UR is already added for str benefits on the SEP calculation stage.

Rage Winterchill ,Anetheron, Kaz'rogal, Azgalor and Archimonde ALL have CC or AE that can, and often do take you out of combat for brief periods of time throughout the whole fight. Sometimes you can get lucky with them and barely ever have to move, other times you are not so lucky. Najentus has his shell, which negates damage for a couple of seconds until your raid heals up and you break it. Not everyone has melee chase Supremus around during the kite phase, although it's possible, but there are still plenty of times you have to be away from him other than just that. Mother has her random ports (which you can get hit with zero times, or multiple), Council has rough AE quite often and with Illidan, it's just a matter of the phases. There are PLENTY of examples as to why you will never be taking advantage of a Mongoose proc 100% of the time, because you will never have it proc as soon as you hit a target for the first time, then fade right before you have to leave on even close to a consistent basis. You also do kill trash during the raid, and while many scoff that trash matters, it does. Otherwise the whole raid could just afk teleport to every boss.

I totally agree with you. But can you say that on archimonde HALF the time you get mongoose procs, you have a fire run thru melee and go away shortly after? No, it happens much more rarely. Thats why also i think the modelling should be improved. Really in Grims sheet the haste doesnt seem modelled and i just tried it again to be sure. Nope its not. Niuta's one, Im not sure but 2.07 doesnt. I tried Landsoul one and it does. And guess what, Landsoul spreadsheet shows 30+ dps gain from mongoose over potency not ~10 like Grim/DrAllcom3 spreadsheets.

As long as you consider mongoose to give you 10 dps increase, its disputable. However adding haste makes it in 30-40 more dps range. Also if your melee doesnt chase supremus, it doesnt mean Mongoose loses half its functionality. Your potency doesnt "work" if you dont melee him. Only advantage potency could have in such scenario is that it procs RIGHT before the phase switch. So in short in worst scenario mongoose is reduced by 16% in effectiveness there.

Also trash favors mongoose honestly. Hyjal trash we heavily buff melee with necromancer buffs whenever possible, and pretty much my main skill is SS. My mongoose/executioner uptimes are close to 100% there. There is no downtime as well, there is just a huge pile of mobs on top of a paladin that you cleave/SS/WW etc. BT trash is more or less the same. Najentus trash is single target dps, but not really much movement. Supremus trash is probably worst but even then i dont have much downtime.

Shha · 03/16/08, 10:39 AM

Landsoul, i believe you grossly underestimate the proc rate on BS hammers. I saw 16% in your sheet, and it felt really low. My observed uptime in raids is around 35%. And an interesting note. Im currently running the test on the hammer for 2 hours in blasted lands while at work. Over those 2 hours, the proc uptime is well over 50%. Possible reason? I didnt respec for testing, and I dont have flurry. Could it cause such insane proc rate increase? Something to think about anyway.

In any case, 16% is way below observed proc rate. Even counting the proc as 1 PPM , instants would boost the uptime above 16%, and it seems to me proc is closer to 1.5-2PPM. In case someone is wondering, the proc has no hidden cooldown, it can even overwrite itself.

Graul · 03/16/08, 12:48 PM

Hyjal trash we heavily buff melee with necromancer buffs whenever possible,

Please share the secret to having your Priests MC them instead of shackling an abom or banshee...unless they are just that good at doing both. I think we've been lucky to have had the UF buff twice. Also about the mace, it was said to have an internal cooldown added when the haste nerf happened. That's also why the mace became equal to the axe in terms of average DPS figures, and the axe then became the clear winner for Orcs. Was that false information? Were people just assuming it had a cooldown simply because they saw it overwriting itself less due to the fact that the haste itself was lower? It doesn't affect me anymore, but it's something to keep in mind for the future if they possibly add more weapons to smithing.