[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond - Page 52

issei · 03/10/08, 3:20 PM

Landsoul, I played around with your new spreadsheet last night and I'm extremely pleased with its functionality and ease-of-use. I like the formatting; I can play with different gear setups, I can dig deeper if I want and compare theoretical to practical by pulling up a WWS report side-by-side with the Output tab. Since I'm not really one to tinker with formulas, I have no qualms with how you've set it up. Other than the already-known issues, I haven't run into any problems.

Gruntle · 03/10/08, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

Okay besides unprotecting the sheet, you want the option to add your own gear? I dont understand are you trying to make bogus gear? Can you not find the items you are currently wearing? The items included are in the game minus a few new releases. Allowing to add bogus stats would not be a problem but I don't see a reason why you would want to. Is there a reason you want to add bogus stats?

I want to add bogus stats to compute SEP values, while you might think that is not really useful I find it very much so. Adding more gear is less important but the sheet lacks a couple of items I'm using (trinkets, I can never seem to get any new trinkets to drops, still using Bladefist's Breath...). But it's not very unlikely that there will be people who want to add new items before you get around to do it.

About the errors: try it with the latest version OO. What boxes in the output tab are displaying errors?

The reason to protect it is so that people who think they know what they are doing can go in and bust it all up. Its very sensitive to change because of how it is setup. There's no reason to change any of the formulas without posting the issue here. I can however let the cell contents be fully visible but not changeable.

Will try it with a more recent version, it probably works fine.

I understand why you'd want to protect it, but if you want people to bugsearch and try the sheet out you have to remove that. I find it impossible to find and understand errors when I can't see the full contents of cells and make small changes to see what happens. The normal user will probably not need it, but you did ask for people to try it out.

About flurry mechanics:
We all know how flurry works. It increases your attack speed while the buff is up, until it goes away when you cannot crit again. The speed from it may be applied to a partial swing. When using paired speeds and your attacks are not interrupted or sped up by a parry, the flurry buff will apply to the full swings on the second hit of each weapon, essentially working as 4 hits instead of 3.

I personally have been using matched 2.6 weapons (Vengeful Sword and Blade of Infamy) for quite some time. In raids fighting bosses each swing happens simultaneously every single time, allowing it to use the 4 hit rule.

When using differing speed weapons the flurry mechanic gets extremely more complicated because no one really knows if the last cannibalize forces the speed to distribute over a partial swing or not. Who cares even? We're doing tangible estimations based on averages in spreadsheets anyways. If someone wishes to prove exactly how flurry works thats fine, I just choose not to slave over combat log data, server-client lag, or possibly inaccurate proc watchers or mods.

No we don't know how flurry works. We think we know how it's supposed to work, but fact is that the current version of flurry on live servers is bugged. Why would you be certain that you know how it will work in 2.4 just because blizzard says so? A lot of people on the EJ forums have done amazing amounts of work trying to find different proc rates and miss rates (in fact the 9%/28% miss rate was found by testers on these forums). To write this work of as unnecessary frankly strikes me as a bit arrogant.

That aside, my point was that the previous formula works just fine, maybe yours is a little bit more accurate but when the initial conditions (like how many hits are flurried) are not known it becomes a bit pointless to model minor things that accurately. But again, your calculations seem to work fine so it's no big deal.

Kream · 03/10/08, 7:59 PM

How does Sword/Board fare for execute range dps? Equipping a 1.5 speed mainhand/shield should make it near impossible to miss a mainhand swing and would virtually guarantee an execute every GCD.

Machinator · 03/10/08, 9:12 PM

Originally Posted by landsoul

I also didnt include Executioner in offhand because its pointless and would require too much work to make a model to where it only refreshes the duration.

Overcoming rage saturation and starvation comes from the skill of the player in my opinion. Watch your instant timers, rampage duration, and rage pool to make the right judgement call. I find very few times my rage hits 100. Not having 75 total for a triple GCD use for BT + WW + Rampage gets me sometimes but making a model of that would get interrupted by the actions of the player.

How do you know executioner offhand is pointless if you havent modeled it? Even if DW executioner was always bad, which it isnt, the point of the spreadsheet is to show that.
Also you can find some proc rate data here.

For rage most of the time it doesnt matter, but for accuracy the outliers can make a difference. And like I said I dont know how you can make an accurate execute model without it.

landsoul · 03/10/08, 11:38 PM

Version 1.01 changes:

Included glancing blow reduction for white efficiency score
Unprotected the document at request for some users to snipe possible bugs
Added ferocious inspiration functionality up to 4 hunters in your group
Added Band of Ruinous Delight and Bladefist's Breadth items.
Updated a Main Hand Hit rage model with Blood Frenzy, Imp Sanctity Aura, and Ferocious Inspiration modifiers.

Download the Sheet v1.01 March 10 2008
FuryDPS1.01.ods - FileFront.com

Download OO
download: OpenOffice.org Downloads

Questions and Info requests:
Can anyone find the exact PPM's of mongoose, executioner, and others? I have not done my own blasted lands research, but everyone I go to says 1.5 PPM base. If someone can point me to anywhere that proves differently, id be glad to change it. Also, PPM effects of trinkets etc atm I am enabling the uptime as the sum of the chances to proc off of each weapon and is looking kind of high. If it is known differently please let me know so I can fix it.

Does anyone know if WF Totem Procs can glance and/or use the 9% miss rule? Currently I have it set on 9% base miss and cannot glance.

About the 1/2 Reduction armor value: 467.5*(Target level)-22167.5, I was trolling around and someone mentioned that is only for character level and not target.

Originally Posted by Gruntle

No we don't know how flurry works. We think we know how it's supposed to work, but fact is that the current version of flurry on live servers is bugged. Why would you be certain that you know how it will work in 2.4 just because blizzard says so? A lot of people on the EJ forums have done amazing amounts of work trying to find different proc rates and miss rates (in fact the 9%/28% miss rate was found by testers on these forums). To write this work of as unnecessary frankly strikes me as a bit arrogant.

That aside, my point was that the previous formula works just fine, maybe yours is a little bit more accurate but when the initial conditions (like how many hits are flurried) are not known it becomes a bit pointless to model minor things that accurately. But again, your calculations seem to work fine so it's no big deal.

Well until the patch is actually released, theres no way of telling. I set it up as how its supposed to work in 2.4 because this is a sheet that will be intended use for 2.4, having OH WW procs and offhand attacks properly refreshing the buff. If matching weapon speeds, ideally your hits will be in sync on a boss fight and the 4 hit rule applies. If differing speeds, uses 3 full swings per flurry. We don't exactly know how flurry works, so I am making an assumption at this point and it can be fixed or changed once the 2.4 testing is released or blizzard says OK this is how we want flurry to work now.

WernerVonBraun · 03/11/08, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by landsoul

[...]If someone wishes to prove exactly how flurry works thats fine, I just choose not to slave over combat log data, server-client lag, or possibly inaccurate proc watchers or mods.

It's an aura with 3 charges, see wowhead. When 3 autoattacks have been made it fades. It can hasten/slow attacks even midswing.
Easily reproducable by getting a very slow 2h, Quartz and cancelling/proccing (with hamstring) flurry midswing.

With same speed weapons autohit #3 happens at the same time as autohit #4, that's why flurry appears to have "4 charges". All that doesn't matter that much, since hits can get hastened midswing.

Originally Posted by landsoul

Can anyone find the exact PPM's of mongoose, executioner, and others?[...]

Mongoose, executioner and crusader are 1 PPM.

Originally Posted by landsoul

Does anyone know if WF Totem Procs can glance and/or use the 9% miss rule? Currently I have it set on 9% base miss and cannot glance.

Those are normal whitehits, they just can't proc WF again.

Machinator · 03/11/08, 1:02 AM

Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun

Mongoose, executioner and crusader are 1 PPM.

Do you have a source for this? People keep saying 1 and 1.5, but the only testing I have ever seen on it is stuff I and some other people did a little while ago, which I linked above.

WF totem procs are exactly the same as MH normal swings with extra AP. They can glance and miss like white attacks.

What exactly does the efficiency score mean?

landsoul · 03/11/08, 1:43 AM

Efficiency score is just a gauge, and is not plugged into any of the formulas. Efficiency is a combination of all of the decimal factors that combine with AP, such as haste, crit bonus, all hit table factors, damage applied, etc. Just double click on the box and it will highlight what is being used.

Version 1.011 March 10 2008
FuryDPS1.011.ods - FileFront.com

Changed Windfury Totem Extra Attack models to reflect its behavior as a DW white swing.
Changed PPM of mongoose and Executioner to 1.0 (seems more accurate for now) still need some confirmation because people are still claiming different things

Chirality · 03/11/08, 3:42 AM

Originally Posted by Machinator

WF totem procs are exactly the same as MH normal swings with extra AP. They can glance and miss like white attacks.

I was under the impression that WF swings are 9% miss rate instead of DW miss rate. At least, that's how the Shaman weapon imbue seems to work--see Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I.

Since we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped

Do the totem and imbue work that differently?

Gruntle · 03/11/08, 4:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kream

How does Sword/Board fare for execute range dps? Equipping a 1.5 speed mainhand/shield should make it near impossible to miss a mainhand swing and would virtually guarantee an execute every GCD.

If sword and board would give more rage per sec than DW during execute phase, it would give more rage/sec always. Not bloody likely...

With good enough gear you will be able to execute every gcd anyway. The best way of making it possible is to switch to fast weapons (but they still have to be good enough, don't go equipping blue daggers) during execute.

Apate · 03/11/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by WernerVonBraun

It's an aura with 3 charges, see wowhead. When 3 autoattacks have been made it fades. It can hasten/slow attacks even midswing.
Easily reproducable by getting a very slow 2h, Quartz and cancelling/proccing (with hamstring) flurry midswing.

With same speed weapons autohit #3 happens at the same time as autohit #4, that's why flurry appears to have "4 charges". All that doesn't matter that much, since hits can get hastened midswing.

http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t12720-m...s_flurry_work/
It's not a tidy ability.

Machinator · 03/11/08, 11:59 AM

Testing showing the proc rates of executioner and mongoose is here linked above.

Short version of results
Executioner:
95% likely to be between 1.14 and 1.22 PPM

Mongoose(2 testers):
95% likely to be between 1.09 and 1.36 PPM
95% likely to be between 0.99 and 1.23 PPM

Shha · 03/11/08, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

If sword and board would give more rage per sec than DW during execute phase, it would give more rage/sec always. Not bloody likely...

With good enough gear you will be able to execute every gcd anyway. The best way of making it possible is to switch to fast weapons (but they still have to be good enough, don't go equipping blue daggers) during execute.

Except noone said sword and board gives more rage per second then DW. The idea is it gives an extremely STEADY rage income, which ensures you wont lose any executes. In theory id say missing a gcd on executes is way worse then having less rage per execute.

Thats the poster idea anyway, and I dont see why we would need to bash it right away. However i see following problems:

Without some haste, a MH would have to be at around 2.3 speed to go under 1.5 with flurry AND haste pot, if we just look at flurried speed it would have to be around 1.8 speed without haste. I dont see such weapons generating enough rage for 12 rage executes without crits. In such case save for recklessness it would be clearly inferior. Even with recklessness phase (when i would see the 1h/shield most useful as getting a miss/dodge streak during reck is most brutal), glacning = missed gcd.

In short - it PROBABLY would be better to use for executing a lvl 70 mob. However on bosses, 1h/shield rage generation still will plummet on glancings, making you miss gcd. Misses that probably wouldnt happen with an OH equipped.

Grim13 · 03/11/08, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by gemmanite

This might be a little misleading. I remember it being suggested that there be an option included in the spreadsheet to model switching weapons to execute.

I am re-writing everything from scratch, and will have weapon switching implemented in the new sheet. I *may* hack it into the current sheet, in a limited fashion, but no promises.

Originally Posted by machinator

Testing showing the proc rates of executioner and mongoose is here linked above.

Short version of results
Executioner:
95% likely to be between 1.14 and 1.22 PPM

Mongoose(2 testers):
95% likely to be between 1.09 and 1.36 PPM
95% likely to be between 0.99 and 1.23 PPM

Is that white only, or white+yellow? Also, were any haste gear or talents used by the tester? I really don't know what to assume, as no link to the source thread was provided. Currently, the sheets are using 1ppm to calculate uptime.

As far as my new sheet goes, I've got talents, specs, buffs all done. 2h DPS is looking pretty done, DW DPS is about 67% of the way done, and execute DPS is about 33% done. I Still need to do weapon procs, tanking front-end, incoming DPS and time-to-live. Not to mention the likely dozens of little tweaks and fixes that will need to be made.

All that said, I have been considering going to OO. It's what I use at home, though I use Excel here at work, which is where I do 100% of my work on this stuff. My real concern is compatibility. What I really want is to make the sheet able to be used by both, without needing to download a thing. That means no plug-ins, etc.

My understanding is that OO can't use macros, so I am avoiding them like the plague. Though, is there any equivelant that can be used that is compatible? The only thing I have come up with to do something like SEP w/o macros requires a MASSIVE addition to the sheet. It wouldn't be too tough, but it would increase the size of the sheet by a factor of at least 10x. I guess, for now, I am just going to install OO here at work, and see how things come out, compatibility-wise. Anything anyone can tell me on this subject would be much appreciated.

Machinator · 03/11/08, 3:48 PM

There is a link there. If its not working Proc Rate Determination

That data is of white attacks with no haste or specials, against a mob that doesnt dodge/parry, with no misses, so its what is needed to put in sheets.
The executioner tests I did is about 60 hours after you take out the time where the weapons broke, if someone can get more accurate than that good for them.