[Warrior] DPS Spreadsheet 2.3 and beyond - Page 7

Gruntle · 10/30/07, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Rhaeti

I was playing around with weapons in the latest version of the spreadsheet, and going from Blade of Infamy to Rising Tide in the MH gives about a 10 DPS increase @ the following stats (before MH is added): 3924AP, 36% crit, 178 hit rating, 103 haste. This makes no sense to me since the hit should not be as valuable as the high agi on the Blade which gives nearly 1% crit with kings--not to mention the 12 more AP. Maybe I have hit some magical boundary hit wise where ~20 more hit rating is going to increase DPS more than the extra AP and crit, but that makes no sense to me. It seems like it's some mystical point where hit rating is more valuable than it should be. This is weird.

I've gotten similar results occasionally at lower gear levels. I think it has something to do with the effect of extra procs/WF triggered by +hit giving rise to some kind of threshold effect. The extra rage income from this effect gives enough rage to give you an extra HS in the cycle and bam, you get +10 dps. Check the buffed dps sheet for the number of HS done with the different weapons.

There might be some bug, the effect seems to be very sensitive to the gear lvl, I could make it go away by adding 2 str or something (which then gave me the higher dps but with the earlier lowdps setup). It's indeed a bit weird.

Rhaeti · 10/31/07, 6:42 AM

Cool, thanks. It's nice to know it's just not some weird anomaly on my end. The gear level I was using was mid BT/MH level with the stat levels I said earlier. I haven't looked into the formulas behind the spreadsheet in that much detail, but I'll play around with it to try to find out the exact cause of those type of anomalies. Obviously when the dps makes those huge jumps in the model by just a few key stat points it's not going to be that way in the actual mechanics--just something to keep in mind if others run into a similar issue.

Graul · 10/31/07, 7:00 AM

Eh, nvm. I'll just donwload the Rogue spreadsheet.

Caesar · 10/31/07, 7:12 AM

the flurry uptime seems wrong imo.

according to the spreadsheet it should be about 65%, but I have much higher uptime according to my logs.

This is using slamcycles.

I havent checked so much how the number 65 is derived, but afaik, slam, bt, ww, hamstring, swordspec (?), WF(?) can all proc flurry but do not consume charges. Maybe this is where it went wrong?

theoretically the chance of renewing flurry if it's up in 3 autoswings is about (1-(1-0.35)^9) ~= 98%. note this is not the actual uptime, but it do backs up that flurry uptime should be higher than 65%. Maybe I'm just misstaken and my logs are lucky, but I think it should get a second look at.

Caesar · 10/31/07, 8:09 AM

I did a little more thinking on it and decided to write a quick simulator for it, since a few more things factor in. In the start you don't have flurry so you have to count in the time it takes for first flurry to hit etc. And is the number of hits flurried or uptime most interestnig? Flurried attacks go faster so the % of flurried attacks is not equal to the flurry uptime.

This simulator has perfect cyles (no rage starvation, no lag, no reactiontime, always an instant after the slam). but it should give a decent estimation.

    public void simulate() {
        Double critchance = 0.35;
        Double combatduration = 600.0;
        Double swingtime = 3.8;
        
        Double timeflurried = 0.0;
        Double timenotflurried = 0.0;
        int attacksflurried = 0;
        int attacksnotflurried = 0;
        int flurrycharges = 0;
 
        while (combatduration > 0) {
            if (flurrycharges > 0) {
                timeflurried += (swingtime/1.25) + 0.5;
                combatduration -= (swingtime/1.25) + 0.5;
                attacksflurried += 1;
                flurrycharges--;
            } else {
                timenotflurried += (swingtime) + 0.5;
                combatduration -= (swingtime) + 0.5;
                attacksnotflurried += 1;
            }
            
            if (Math.random() <= critchance) flurrycharges = 3; //the autoattack
            if (Math.random() <= critchance) flurrycharges = 3; //the slam
            if (Math.random() <= critchance) flurrycharges = 3; //the instantatack
        }
        
        System.out.println("Attacks flurried: " + attacksflurried + "/" + (attacksnotflurried+attacksflurried) + " uptime: " + (attacksflurried / (attacksflurried + attacksnotflurried)) + "%");
        System.out.println("Time flurried:    " + Math.round(timeflurried) + "/" + Math.round(timeflurried + timenotflurried) + " uptime: " + timeflurried / (timeflurried + timenotflurried) + "%");
    }

I made 100 simulations and averaged out the flurry uptime:

TOTAL AVERAGE: 0.9634029460643592% (uptime)
TOTAL AVERAGE: 0.9792841666382484% (uptime with 40% crit)

(total number of attacks uptime is slightly higher)

As a sidenote it can be mentioned that only doing autoattack + slam will give a Flurry uptime of about 0.9006430692263361% (uptime, 35% crit). And only autoattacking gives a uptime of about 0.67417420689065% (uptime, 35% crit). As combat duration goes very high, the number of flurried attacks become 0.9901557927099655% with 40% crit rate.

In reality it's not that high, because of rage starvation. non perfect cycles, etc etc, but it's at least above 90% I think, which is consistent with my logs.

Gruntle · 10/31/07, 9:37 AM

Cool, nice flurry uptimes you get with 2h slam cycles.

I thought the slam cycle was 4 autoattacks long though, making the flurry calculations a bit more complicated? The last attack has no instant so the true n number is not 9 but (not sure I've done this the right way though) 3 + 3 +3/4*3 = 8.25 on average.

edit I'm guessing that the spreadsheet does not include the slams in the flurry uptime calculations (if I remember correctly it's modeled as 1 - (1-crit)^(3 + n), where n is the number of instants per 3 * weapon speed. Can't check for sure atm.

Gruntle · 10/31/07, 9:38 AM

edit: stupid mispost, please delete

Caesar · 10/31/07, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Cool, nice flurry uptimes you get with 2h slam cycles.

I thought the slam cycle was 4 autoattacks long though, making the flurry calculations a bit more complicated? The last attack has no instant so the true n number is not 9 but (not sure I've done this the right way though) 3 + 3 +3/4*3 = 8.25 on average.

it is yes, but you could use hamstring as the 4th instant (to get better uptime and proc swordprocs). It's all theorycrafting, and I don't think it's a good idea to do, but it made my calculations and simulation easier. I also don't calculate WF procs or swordprocs in the simulation. My main goal was just to test the theory that flurry uptime is significantly higher than 65%.

dr_AllCOM3 · 11/01/07, 2:24 PM

Unfortunately I don't fully understand the Flurry calculations in the sheet. I don't like it either. In raids with a 2h I have more like 100% uptime.
It gets way more complicated when you have two weapons

.

Caesar · 11/01/07, 7:51 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Unfortunately I don't fully understand the Flurry calculations in the sheet.

Did't you write the sheet? O.o

And yes I think setting it to a static 100% (or maybe 95-96 something) would give a better dps cycle time than the current 65% for slam cycles.

dr_AllCOM3 · 11/01/07, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Caesar

Did't you write the sheet? O.o

I re-wrote it.

Caesar · 11/02/07, 7:07 AM

ok I think this will be a better formulae. It includes a lot of circular references though. If someone took a look it would be great.

Basically I took the probability to renew the flurry if you have it as flurry uptime. it is NOT the actual uptime, but it's very close to it it seems.

MH = Mainhand speed
OH = Offhand speed
CRIT = critchance
IPS = Instants per second (including slam)
RESET = 0.5 if you are using slam cycles, 0 if not. The forumale does not accomodate dualwield slamming (but I dont think this is a common spec). In this forumlae I ussume no instants consume flurry, and both MH and offhand do, and both OH and MH can proc flurry. OH and MH do not have individual Flurry charges. Double flurry because of sametime attacks are not accounted for (ie the getting extra flurry charges fenomena).

if you do not use an offhand: (1/OH) = 0

Flurry uptime ~= 1-((1-CRIT)^(((3/((1/(MH+RESET))+(1/OH)))*IPS)+3))

Ok this is th logic behind it:
first calculate the average time it takes to get 3 white hits. not that the MH and OH values should be adjusted by flurry uptime, so it's a circular ref on those. If you use slam, add 0.5 to the attackspeed of the hasted weapon: 3/((1/(MH+RESET))+(1/OH))

Then take the number of instant attacks per second (simply divide the number of instant attacks by the cycle length for the different cycles. not that the cycle length will be a variant of the attackspeed on some (slam) cycles: (...)*IPS (addition, WW should be counted twice after 2.3 if dualwielding)

Add three becayse the three white attacks can proc flurry too. (...)+3

That is the number of attacks you will do in the time it takes to consume 3 flurry charges. so what is the probability you will renew it in this time? 1-(probability for it not to happen)^(number of shots you have at it) ie: 1-(1-CRIT)^(...)

That should give total formulae:
Flurry uptime ~= 1-((1-CRIT)^(((3/((1/(MH+RESET))+(1/OH)))*IPS)+3))

Gruntle · 11/02/07, 10:58 AM

Nice Caesar.

The spreadsheet version does already use circular references, I'm not sure how your version is different from the one in place, the Slam correction is not in there at least.

The general formula looks ok to me, just some comments:
- The MH and OH speeds could possibly also be updated for Mongoose procs?
- The IPS value for 2.3 should get +2 per whirlwind when DWing (if that's how WW will be implemented).

Caesar · 11/02/07, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Nice Caesar.

The spreadsheet version does already use circular references, I'm not sure how your version is different from the one in place, the Slam correction is not in there at least.

The general formula looks ok to me, just some comments:
- The MH and OH speeds could possibly also be updated for Mongoose procs?
- The IPS value for 2.3 should get +2 per whirlwind when DWing (if that's how WW will be implemented).

MH/OH should be updated from all things that update haste, haste pots and ofc hasterating procs too
the IPS should not be +2, but WW should be counted double (if dualwielding) when deriving the IPS number (number if instants/cycle length). I guess thats what you ment though, and good notice!

Did some test calculations to see if the formulae seem correct:

Slamcycles (3.8 speed weapon)

MH = 3.06 (3.8 spd weapon flurried 97% of the time)
CRIT = 0.36
IPS = 7/14.25 = 0.491 (4 slams, 2 BT, 1 WW)

Flurry uptime ~= 1-((1-0,36)^(((3/((1/(3,06+0,5))+(0)))*0,491)+3)) = 0.97 = 97%

for Dualwielding (2 x 2.8 speed weapon)

MH = 2,352 (2.8 spd weapon flurried 80% of the time)
OH = 2,352 (2.8 spd weapon flurried 80% of the time)
IPS = 7/18 = 0.389 (3 BT, 2 WW (counted double))
CRIT = 0.31

Flurry uptime ~= 1-((1-0,31)^(((3/((1/(2,352+0))+(1/2,352)))*0,389)+3)) = 0.80 = 80%

for Dualwielding (2.8 + 1.5 speed weapon)

MH = 2,369 (2.8 spd weapon flurried 77% of the time)
OH = 1,269 (1.5 spd weapon flurried 77% of the time)
IPS = 7/18 = 0.389 (3 BT, 2 WW (counted double))
CRIT = 0.31

Flurry uptime ~= 1-((1-0,31)^(((3/((1/(2,369+0))+(1/1,269)))*0,389)+3)) = 0.77 = 77%

Gruntle · 11/02/07, 1:03 PM

You beat me to it

, was going to plugin some numbers as well.

Yeah, that's what I meant about the IPS.

On a sidenote, using one hamstring per 18 sec DW cycle will give you a Flurry uptime of about 81.5% in the 2.8 matched case.

Graul · 11/02/07, 1:23 PM

Does the matched speed weapons really have any noticeable impact? I realize the potential for an extra flurried attack, but does it happen often enough to really even be a consideration? Whether or not you can actually get two decent weapons of the same speed is a relative non issue though, because you can do that easily.

Apate · 11/02/07, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

Does the matched speed weapons really have any noticeable impact? I realize the potential for an extra flurried attack, but does it happen often enough to really even be a consideration? Whether or not you can actually get two decent weapons of the same speed is a relative non issue though, because you can do that easily.

Disquette's thread on flurry mechanics has some data on this.

Gruntle · 11/02/07, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Caesar

Basically I took the probability to renew the flurry if you have it as flurry uptime. it is NOT the actual uptime, but it's very close to it it seems.

Hmm, won't this assumption work against the fast weapons? Consider a situation where flurry is not triggered within the uptime. The next possible time a new flurry can be triggered is the next attack (white or yellow), the time until this next attack will in general be smaller for faster weapons, thus you will spend less time as unflurried with fast weapons. Or did I go wrong somewhere?

Not sure how to model the effect of unflurried periods though.

Drwal · 11/02/07, 6:01 PM

Take into account, that "average" stats of "use-trinkets" like [Bloodlust Brooch], used in calculations are in fact the worst case scenario. That means, its good only in static fights, which last for (trinket's cd * n) minutes. For the Brooch it's 72ap + 1/6 * 278ap = 118.33ap, where 1/6 is taken from: 20secs of use divided by 2mins cd.

The best case scenario is fight which lasts for (trinket's cd * n + trinket's use-ability's time), for Brooch that would be for example 2min20sec fight, where it's value is rather 72ap + 2/7 * 278ap = 151ap, where 2/7 is taken from: 40secs of uses (one time at 0:00, and 2nd time at 2:00) divided by 2min20sec of fight.

Also, trinket's with use ability have natural advantage over "proc" ones in non-static fights, where u want to pump up your dps in certain moments.

That altogether probably makes [Berserker's Call] the best trinket for dps warrior in game after 2.3.

Drwal · 11/02/07, 6:48 PM

I'd also be glad to see some way of including sharpening stones in calculations, since +12wep dmg is far from unsignificant, and it favorizes fast weapons too, which are, right now, discriminated by the spreadsheet.

Tkon · 11/02/07, 7:29 PM

I have been reading about warriors dps now for quite some times. I'm pretty sure I understand how it works w/ rotations and using certain abilities over others while they are up. I was wondering if there was a better site then warcraftmovies to see this in action. Theory craft is fun, but I'd like to see some decent fury and arms warriors in some actual PvE situations doing this kind of dps. Any suggestions?

Caesar · 11/02/07, 9:18 PM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Hmm, won't this assumption work against the fast weapons? Consider a situation where flurry is not triggered within the uptime. The next possible time a new flurry can be triggered is the next attack (white or yellow), the time until this next attack will in general be smaller for faster weapons, thus you will spend less time as unflurried with fast weapons. Or did I go wrong somewhere?

Not sure how to model the effect of unflurried periods though.

No it shouldn't. Probability to renew it regardless if it's up or not is the same, perhaps my wording was a bit ill. In another way it does not give fast weapons a correct uptime though, but that part is incredibly hard to model and is what I used my simulator for. There is a startuptime for all (regardless of critchance and weapons speed). This will be shorter with faster weapons and higher critrate. Ie, the theoretical uptime is too positive, it assumes you have flurry on from the beginning and there is no pauses in dps. However these errors are not that big (I would guess in the vicinity of 1% or less) and other factors matter more, such as if you have to run out or boss goes away for 12+ seconds you will loose flurry, and you have to get a first crit again. Anyways, I think that will be overcomplicating things, and making a full dps simulator would be easier than incorporate that in to forumale. Boss fight, generally have a greater impact on flurry uptime (how many bosses do you stand still 10 minutes and just go full out from start to end?).

Long story short: it works against fast weapons marginally (for other reasons though). It's not worth to try to fix.

Rhaeti · 11/03/07, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Drwal

I'd also be glad to see some way of including sharpening stones in calculations, since +12wep dmg is far from unsignificant, and it favorizes fast weapons too, which are, right now, discriminated by the spreadsheet.

If you're talking about adamantite sharpening stones, those are already included in the spreadsheet. It adds 7 damage (12*.625 rounded down) to your off hand's average damage.

Originally Posted by Tkon

I have been reading about warriors dps now for quite some times. I'm pretty sure I understand how it works w/ rotations and using certain abilities over others while they are up. I was wondering if there was a better site then warcraftmovies to see this in action. Theory craft is fun, but I'd like to see some decent fury and arms warriors in some actual PvE situations doing this kind of dps. Any suggestions?

The only movie I know of is Curse's BT video which shows several shots of their fury warrior DPSing: Curse(MYM.WoW) : Black Temple The Movie

On a separate matter I and others have noticed that if you increase your stats to the point where you get an extra HS in your cycle, dps will show a huge increase even if it was just an insignificant amount of stats that were added (I've had a 20 dps increase from a 5 hit rating addition). Perhaps a better way to model this would be using partial numbers in the cycle instead of whole numbers for excess rage. I'm not sure what is done with excess rage that isn't used in the cycle so I may be missing something.

Tectonic · 11/03/07, 11:48 AM

After 2.3 which is best: fast offhands or slower ones?

Does the damage from having a slow offhand offset the benefits of having a faster one?

Thorquiz · 11/03/07, 12:04 PM

Mathematically, there are no "benefits of having a faster offhand". The benefits are more .. subjective, e.g. smoother rage gain - nothing you can't compensate with good rage management. So yes, 2.3-whirlwind changes favor slower offhands over fast ones, but the difference between a non-dagger fast offhand and a slow offhand is like <10dps, so it's not as important as one might think.