Sarlunas

This is what makes the charts very suspect to me. From the testing going on it seems quite premature to conclude such a huge difference in proc rates. There is some variance in different tests but from what I've seen whenever the same person tests both enchants under the same conditions the proc rates turn out to be very similar. What specific tests are you basing these numbers on?

 

Erionn

I've read over the entire thing and everything looks nice, so is Ex/Goose the way to go for rogues now? Or Goose/Goose still? I have access to full mongoose mats right now and need to know 100% before I do anything.

 

schnaxine

1.5 ppm Executioner might be an overestimated proc rate. Aldriana's log parse a few pages ago indicates "With Talon, we found PPM to most likely be between .76 and 1.47". Would be interesting to see a chart based on same proc rates for Mongoose and Exec. Another thing i want to point out is that Rupture damage is missing in the maths behind the graphs and Rupture is roughly 6-8% of our total damage (depending on talents). What i mean is that we should not ignore this factor when we're thinking of exec vs. mongoose.

/edit: Ok, after suggesting to include rupture i questioned myself: "how does MH mongoose affect my rupture dps?".

I'm assuming a 1s/5r cycle, with mangle and 0/3 serrated blades. 5 points Rupture: 1000 damage over 16 secs.
Cycle time according to the spreadsheet (v2303) is 17.4 seconds, which means a rupture uptime of 92%
Mongoose is 1ppm with an estimated 30% uptime (due to instant attacks), the 2% haste factor is ignored for these rupture calcs.

MH = exec (no effect on rupture)
AP = 3000

rupture=(1000+ap*0.24)*(1+0.1*serrb)*(1+mangle*0.3)
(1000+720)*(1.3)=2236
2236 dmg over 16 secs = 139.75 dps
factoring 92% uptime: 139.75*0.92=128.57


MH = mongoose (30% of 120 = 36)
AP = 3036

rupture=(1000+ap*0.24)*(1+0.1*serrb)*(1+mangle*0.3)
(1000+728.64)*(1.3)=2247.232
2247.232 dmg over 16 secs = 140.452 dps
factoring 92% uptime: 140.452*0.92=129.21584

That's an increase of 0.65 rupture dps (not that much i have to admit).

 

Sinmul

If I'm reading the thread right:

PvE
Rogues - E/M*
Warriors - E/M
Shaman - M/E or E/M (does not matter, see below)**

PvP
Rogues - M/M vs. cloth targets (factoring in armor reducing talents and S3 gear) E/M vs. Hard targets
Warriors - ? Savegry on 2H ... don't see too many Dual Wielding PvP warriors anymore -- but I'd say E/M.
Shaman - M/E or E/M (does not matter, see below)**

*Rogues get the biggest gain of all the melee classes from a Mongoose proc due to the agility -> AP -> crit -> dodge. As such, it appears to be a tougher call for Rogues on the dilemma of double Mongoose or Executioner/Mongoose.

It seems Executioner has a better benefit, or less drawback, for melee classes who don't get a 2 to 1 AP translation from AGI and favor STR. I do not believe it's been proven to the point where both hands should have the Executioner enchant though -- so one enchant of Executioner on the main or offhand (depending on class) should suffice.

**E/M or M/E for Shaman (their only yellow attack, stormstrike, procs both hands -- so it doesn't matter). If you're using a slow/fast combo, I would put Executioner on the faster, off hand weapon.

disclaimer: This is my humble opinion after reading and re-reading this thread many times over. Definitely needs to be tested a lot more.

-sin

 

◊ Hanos

People really need to stop posting this every 10th post here and in the Hemo thread. We don't know for sure which is better yet, and asking again isn't going to make someone state without a doubt that A is better then B or B is better then A. Look at the testing, look at the conclusions people are drawing and go from there. The answer is, at this point we don't know, you aren't going to be 100% sure until people can pin down the proc rate relative to Mongoose.

My gut tells me that if you are Hemo spec with some armor penetration gear, then Executioner is going to be as good or better on MH, however, you are Combat Spec and have to -Armor gear... so I would just stick with Mongoose, since you seem to be unwilling to do any of the legwork/testing yourself.

 

• Aldriana

There were about half a dozen data sets leaning towards a proc rate of higher than 1 PPM a couple pages back; I believe my estimate at the time was 1.33 PPM, but with little to confirm it.

That said, I don't ever actually recall seeing formal testing of the Mongoose proc rate, so it's not totally inconceivable to me that Mongoose isn't 1 PPM either - as far as I can remember, everyone sort of assumed it was (but I've never seen testing).

 

Machinator

Well I was fiddling around with spreadsheets and don't think that double executioner is as bad as people make it out to be, at least for certain classes.

People are putting -armor in as (uptime of executioner) * 840. So if Exe is up 25% of the time is better than 1 mongoose, by how much is mongoose worth? Because it doesnt stack having 2 enchants doesnt really double the uptime, but its not a trivial increase.

Assumptions for a quick example so people can see how I got this stuff(warrior):
Uptime = 1-(1-% proc)^(Duration/Time between attacks)
DW 2x 2.6 speed
Exe is 1 PPM - this is probably low but we will go with worst case
This gives a swing a 4.3% chance to proc.
Lets put in about 15 instant attacks/min with MH, 5 for OH. (BT/WW)
Time between attacks is average 60/swings per min. 10% of the normal swings miss.

1 MH Enchant(35.8 swing/min) = 1-(1-.043)^(15/1.68) = 32.5%
MH/OH Enchant(61.5 swing/min) = 1-(1-.043)^(15/.975) = 49.1%

So double executioner is about 1.5 the uptime of just one.
Also note that technically -840 armor with a 50% uptime is not -420 armor because of the way the formula works. It is actually a slightly higher benefit.

When double executioner is put in spreadsheets, I used both the warrior dps one on this forum and my own, it comes out pretty much equal to Exe/Mongoose, less than .5% difference. This is assuming Executioner is about 1 PPM, and my sheet uses 1 PPM for mongoose as well. If Exe is more than 1 PPM then it just gets better.

Conclusion: Either I did something wrong or Double Executioner is perfectly viable for warriors.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Duranthor

I was actually just thinking something similar myself. Even though it doesn't stack, refreshing the buff seems to be just as good as you would want 840 ap to be up as often as possible which having duel executioner enchants would accomplish.

 

◊ Shaker

The difference is that when a proc stacks, you get 2x the effect guaranteed regardless of proc behavior. Sometimes you also get a bonus if the effect isn't linear, as is the case with Executioner - (1600 ArP being more than 2x better than 800 ArP, given that the target has > 1600 armor). With refreshes, you could have a proc, then an off hand proc 1 second later, negating all but 1 second of the previous proc. Yes, it's better than nothing, but depending on proc frequency, you could be losing a LOT of uptime off the 2nd enchant due to the behavior. Yes, it will be more uptime than just having 1 hand enchanted, but the marginality of the upgrade over a possible other enchant comes into question.

For clarification, I'm answering the post directly above me which is stating that it is "as good" - it really isn't, in the BEST case of a refreshing buff, you are still not getting the benefit of the worst case of a stacking one.

 

Machinator

Shaker I think you missed the point. Refreshing the buff IS just as good as the other enchants in that case. Just having the OH refresh is not marginal at all.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Abrojo

Ok allow me to add something else not sure if it relevant, please correct me.

Mongoose MH / Exe OH vs Exe MH / Mongoose OH:
My knowledge on rogue/warr attack totals is a bit lacking but i assume a MH ppm enchant will proc more than the OH due to instant attacks?
If Mongoose MH indeed procs more, then the haste effect will have a higher uptime. This means the uptime for the offhand enchant will also go up.

This also brings to question how 2 mongooses would synergy since they kinda "help" each other.

I dont think i've seen this kind of enchant synergy being treated yet on the thread and i think it might be quite relevant if treated by someone more knowledgeable than me.

Note 1: This is all assuming ppm effects work as i have always assumed. Meaning, ppm is applied to weapon, depending on base weapon speed a certain "chance on hit" is calculated and roll from there. This would explain how haste effects like flurry/SnD give higher uptime on ppm effects.
Note 2: this applies to warriors and rogues mostly, shamans are out since they dont have an instant mainhand only attack and they usually use 2x slow weapons of equal speed (example: 2x 2.6speed weapons).

 

• Arawethion

I believe this isn't true for Mongoose.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

songster

It's not true for any TBC enchant that has been tested. PPM procs use your current weapon speed to determine proc rate on white hits, thus haste effects will not give you any extra procs. It also seems to be the case that PPM effects use your base weapon speed to determine proc rates on white hits, thus haste effects will not affect your proc rate from specials.

 

Contemplate

Executioner reduces targets armor by 840. I've always known armor to be a % damage reducer, not a raw number reducer, so to see people trying to apply raw attack power numbers as equivalents doesn't make sense.
840 armor is 7% damage decreased, so if Executioner procs, you have 7% damage increase. Now, how much damage you do is all relative to how hard you hit.
If your Sinister strike hit for 1000 it would then get a 7% damage increase( 1000*1.07= 1070)
However, if your attack hit weaker, you would get less of a damage bonus.
Like if your SS hit for 700, and got a 7% damage increase (700*1.07=749)
One attack received a 70 damage increase, the other only 49.
However, if you were a warrior, and your MS hit for 1700 normally, and had it proc (1700*1.07=1819)
It received 119 damage increase.


There is no set number on how much it increases your damage, You have Merc Glad weapons, and 1600 AP, he has Blues and only 1200 AP. You apply Executioner, you get different outcomes. However, this much I know to be true, the better gear you have, and the better weapons, the higher the damage increase.

To make things simple, the harder you HIT, the more damage increase you get with Executioner.

At least, that's what I know, if anyone knows different, please enlighten me.

 

koaschten

Contemplate, i got the feeling you didn't understand how damage reduction from armor works, in this case rather how armor penetrations damage increase works.

Given a static amount of X armor reducing it by 840 will net you Y dps gain, but assuming Z = Y-1000 and reducing Z Armor by 840 you will see a gain that is bigger than Y dps.

Please read up on how Armor Mitigation works and the formulas over at Armor - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
The most quoted source on that Topic probably is this Image:



To sum it up: The lower your targets armor is the more you gain till you reduce the targets armor to zero.

You probably want to look at this quote too:

 

songster

No, Contemplate's just saying that armor penetration is a percentage DPS increase rather than a flat DPS increase, and thus its effectiveness scales with your gear. Which is true, but already accounted for in all the models.

 

Mojofabulous

I'm about to do some combat logging but have a question that can hopefully get answered quickly. With setup, is it ok to use slice and dice to increase your hits as long as you dont spam a special(instant) abillity to generate those combo points? If so, do I need to keep it up the entire time or would using it at convenience suffice just as well?

thanks in advance

 

◊ Shaker

I fail to see how having my offhand proc executioner 5 seconds after the mainhand proc'd it, refreshing a 10s remaining buff to a 15s reamining buff (therefore turning the 2 procs into 20s of 840 armor penetration) is "just as good" as the hypothetical case whereby it would proc a 2nd, stacking executioner buff which would give me (over the course of the time in question) 5 seconds of 840 armor penetration, followed by 10 seconds of 1680 armor penetration, followed by 5 seconds of 840 armor penetration.

Since Mongoose is at least of relevent quality to make the choice between them take this level of study, that means if the above situation is at all likely to happen, the diminishing returns on a 2nd executioner enchant would be significant enough to not just pooh-pooh away like that.

This is ALL speculative until we have a firmer grasp on the proc mechanics of Executioner, however. I am NOT claiming anything specific about recommending one enchant set over another - I'm just stating that mechanics wise, stacking procs are more powerful than ones that refresh themselves.

 

◊ Shaker

You really want to keep a consistent swing speed - either keep SnD up, or don't use it - switching between the two will muddy up the data.

 

Machinator

Well perhaps we just both took what he said in a different way. I didnt think he meant that it was just as good as stacking two Executioners, which of course its not. I thought he meant more that a 2nd Executioner enchant is just as good as a Mongoose, which is what I showed.


Anyway, koaschten's probably shows better why you cant just put uptime*-840 in a spreadsheet and get the right result. Although it may be close depending on gear and target.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Mojofabulous

Aldriana mentioned not seeing any real work done on confirming the proc rate for mongoose, since so many rogues and other classes are looking for a detailed comparison of mongoose vs executioner I thought it'd be a good idea to confirm our assumption about mongoose before making any solid conclusions about executioner.

For my test I of course used the blasted lands mobs, equipped blade of savagery MH/warglaive OH with double mongoose. Both are 1.4 speed weapons, no passive haste gear, only auto attack. ~9168 hits/crits. As an added bonus I also equipped my [Band of the Eternal Champion], [Tsunami Talisman] and [Madness of the Betrayer]. I figured ald could use the info to double check proc rates for all of em and such for the spreadsheet.

here's the log, I plan to do another one this afternoon of equal size with the same factors to make the information more accurate: Free file hosting by Savefile.com

 

Machinator

Some more detailed testing of Double Executioner. I used my own spreadsheet and the one from the DPS Warrior Spreadsheet thread. The gear used is the gear in my armory(probably). This is assuming that both Mongoose and Executioner are 1 PPM for now.

Each stat has the value from each sheet, My sheet/DPS Warrior Spreadsheet
If someone has a suggestion on how to make it more readable I would appreciate it.

Executioner uptime was pretty much consistent each test, E/M was 31%/33% and E/E was 47%/49%.

Test 1: 7700 Armor(most of SSC/BT)
No enchants: 1254.1/1201.4
E/M: 1293.4/1243.9
E/E: 1291.6/1240.8

Test 2: 6200 Armor(most of Hyjal/TK)
No enchants: 1371.5/1351
E/M: 1417/1402.7
E/E: 1416.4/1401

Test 3: 6200 Armor w/ Curse of Recklessness(Solarian, ect)
No enchants: 1461.5/1447.3
E/M: 1512.1/1504.3
E/E: 1512.6/1504.4


So it seems that E/E is about equal to E/M. The difference between them is so small that a lucky miss or crit could probably cover it. While it is about a .1% dps drop, it would be more consistent. With all the new -armor gear and sunwell, its interesting to see how the enchant scales. Maybe later I can put in things like [Madness of the Betrayer] but this stuff takes a while so I want to make sure what Ive got so far is correct.

The only thing I can think of that could be wrong is how I calculated the uptime of Executioner with 2 proc sources. But as far as I can tell that should be the average uptime, the numbers look right. I basically used the formula from above:
Uptime = 1-(1-avg proc %)^(15/avg time between hits)
Avg Proc % is just the % of swings made by each hand multiplied by the chance to proc on hit.
Avg time between Hits is 60/total swings per minute

"Information is ammunition."

 

songster

Why are you calculating uptime from the proc rate? You should be able to derive it directly from your data set. Look for the "You gain Executioner" message (with time stamp) and "Executioner fades from you" message (with time stamp) and see how long you have the buff for in each case. Add it up, divide by the total testing period, and that is the 100% accurate uptime!

 

Machinator

There is no data set to test that, its theorycraft on spreadsheets.

"Information is ammunition."

 

ourfinal

Has anyone checked on their average damage increase with executioner over mongoose in regards to glancing blows? Glancing blows can't crit, making the added crit from mongoose pointless for classes that don't get ap from agility. But would the increase in damage from glancing blows really be that important considering the nature of glancing blows. I'm not sure if this relevant but i didn't come across it in the few pages I've read so I thought I would bring it up.