• Disquette

Unless you're crit capped, this doesn't matter. Crit takes away from hits, not from other attack results.

 

ourfinal

Hmm, that's right, should have thought it out better. What is the current crit cap anyway.

 

Rosvall

1-(avoidance)

(With hit capped out, expertise capped out, 100% crit is the cap.)

 

david0925

I'm not sure about this, but can you push glancing off the white attack table? 100% crit works for yellow attack, that much i know.

 

saedo

You can't push glancing blows off the attack table. Yellow damage doesn't glance so that's why you can get 100% crit there.

So with white attacks and the 100% hit and expertise, guess crit cap is around 76%.

 

Sapp

It used to be heinously low, like 46%. I don't think the concept has even been relevant since they halved the Glancing rate and damage reduction on melee attacks. Is it even possible to currently achieve 76%+ white crit outside of Loatheb and his spores?

 

saedo

Don't think so, and that number is only valid if you had 100% hit rate and expertise, so getting all 3 stats that high is too much. Maybe if you go with 0 hit and expertise, drop that crit cap down to around 42-43%, that'd be achievable.

 

Hidden

Can anyone test Double Executioner vs Single Executioner Uptime (on PTR) possibly? There's still no in-game testing of this and only speculation telling it's either horribly bad due to overwriting procs or could be on par with Mongoose OH due to increased uptime.

 

Machinator

Since my tests I went out and got the 2nd enchant to try out. I havent done anything since then though but I may go out to blasted lands tonight or tomorrow. Can we confirm that things like flurry and haste recalculate ppm so that +100% haste isnt double the number of procs? I assumed so in my math anyway, but I dont want to have to respec to get accurate results.

Edit: Is there a better way to count procs in a log or can someone suggest a good uptime counter? The ones Ive used never seem to be right.

Edit 2:
So I went out to blasted lands for a bit, about 20m but thats all I have time for now. Tank gear, [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Fury] both with executioner. Over 17:51 I hit/crit 773 times. I count 36 "gain executioner" in the log which is about 2 PPM.

I realize now that this isnt a very good test because I only had overlapping procs a couple times and didnt use instants.

12/3 01:17:12.326 You gain Executioner.
...
12/3 01:17:20.280 Executioner fades from you.
12/3 01:17:20.280 You gain Executioner.

I thought most procs didnt do this, they would only show the fade after the 2nd proc was done if they overlap since you never lost the buff. Is this unusual or have I not been paying attention?

"Information is ammunition."

 

Marvie

As soon as I get my S3 mace I am going to go test this, hopefully I can get a healer and just smack away for a few hours.

I may jump on my brother's Shaman and heal spam while my Rogue autoattacks.

Just to be sure, what is the best mod/addon to use for this tracking?

 

nelalas

The best option would be to simply start a /combatlog with your rogue and record the entire test. Then upload the unmodified log file to some host and supply us with a link to go get it. Remove haste-from-proc items and note how much passive haste you had, if any.

 

Marvie

You'll have to forgive my ignorance, I'm really new to the theorycrafting and all it entails but I am very eager to learn.

So if I am understanding correctly, I just type /combatlog in game and it creates a log file in my WoW data(?) folder and I can just host and link that here?

 

Machinator

Doing some testing now, not long each test but enough to establish that there is enough of a difference between 1 and 2 enchants. I still have flurry which Im told shouldnt change the average PPM, if it does my PTR copy should be done tonight or tomorrow.

Test 1W Executioner using BT/WW-Forgot to take off DST
11 min, 835 overall hits, 24 "gain executioner"
Combat log:RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting
I am interested in the total uptime of this as its the gear that I run my calculations off of. Im curious about the Hourglass and DST uptime too if there is a good utility I can use to measure this stuff without going through other people.

Test 2: DW MH exectioner BT/WW-also with DST
13 min, 970 overall hits, 20 "gain executioner"
Combat log:RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting

Just doing quick estimates, Test 1 would be about 44% uptime and Test 2 about 31% uptime. I dont know if DST and flurry would throw those off, but with the same gear I would say its outside the margin of error. DST might have had an effect as there were a couple less procs in the second test, but flurry should be fairly consistent. In fact testing without DST or flurry would probably skew the results more towards DW enchants as there would be less overlapping procs. I can do some autoattack testing on the PTR, but I dont think it would be as statistically significant.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Vanadi

Stealth to Diremaul north last boss room and you don't need a healer and you can hit the same mob for hours straight without it dying. Im reffering to the ghosts in his room.

 

• Latito

<WoW directory>\Logs\WoWCombatLog.txt

You can get mods that automatically turn on and off combat logging when you zone into an instance.. or manually do it with /combatlog.

Yes, you just type /combatlog to toggle combat logging. It should give you a msg in your chat that combat logging is enabled/disabled.

As mentioned above, try and remove haste-from-proc items (DST, TSD meta, Mongoose, etc). Static haste (Shadow Walker Cords, Band of Devastation, etc) is fine - just mention how much you had when doing the tests. The idea is to maintain an identical weapon speed for the duration of the test, generally without instant attacks muddying things. If you wanted to shiv-SnD and maintain 100% SnD uptime, that would work well too (more attacks per time.. takes less time to get a larger data sample). If you plan on healing with a second character.. probably safer and easier to skip that entirely and just autoattack.

 

DarKNecross

An easier option for testing in Blasted Lands is to have a Paladin auto-attack and keep Judgement of Light up.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Machinator

I found that bloodthirst kept me healed pretty well, not 100% but I could go for a long time. [Mark of Conquest] is also very good for this.

"Information is ammunition."

 

koaschten

Yeah or just have a guildmate park his feral druid next to you. But we are getting off topic.

On the matter of dual Executioner. I honestly don't see the benefit in dual-wielding it. The increased uptime shouldn't be able to outperform the combination of Executioner and Mongoose, especially when both procs overlap each other and increase each others effect. For me it will boil down to:
Is Executioner/Mongoose better than dual Mongoose.

sidenote: Many of you will know Uptime Meter - curse.com. Is there an easy way to get 2 instances of this running? e.g. copy + rename to uptimemeter2 and modify the lua to get a /um2 for config? Or will it fail due to same internal frame naming etc? Would be nice to easily track uptimes for 2 different procs that way. Or does anyone know an alternative addon that could track 2 procs and visually display uptime?

 

mogun

It's about dual executioner for warriors (and shammy). For rogues it is most probably that dual executioner is worse then exec/mongoose or dual mongoose. But for warriors at least, its another story.
Personally I run with dual executioner. While I haven't done any tests in Blasted lands and such, I have checked the uptime on bosses and such. For example on Najentus, RoS, Gorefiend, Bloodboil I saw an uptime varying from ~55%-75%. I also got to see large chain procs with an uptime around 40-50 secs.

I'd really like to see some good tests to make a comparison between the uptime from 1 Exec vs. Dual Exec. Lets make an assumption that dual exec is something around 1.5* uptime from one exec. And assuming it is so, does this increase of the uptime beats a 'full' mongoose? How can we know where is the limit when mongoose beats executioner (something like 10 sec of mongoose > 5 secs of executioner)? Finding that, as well finding the difference between single vs dual exe we will know for sure which of Exec/Exec or Exec/Mongoose is better for warriors (maybe Exec/Potency also)

 

• Aldriana

Well, for rogues it doesn't make sense to do double Executioner, since it appears the quality of Executioner and Mongoose is reasonably close. However, most classes get significantly less benefit from Mongoose due to not getting AP from agility, such that the differential between it and Executioner is significantly larger. Hence it it conceivable to me that getting the extra uptime from a 2nd Executioner is worth it. My gut feeling is that it's probably still not, but I can't really say for sure.

 

Machinator

Obviously there is a benefit to dual-wielding it. Why shouldnt it be able to equal if not outperform Ex/Mon? For its materials and drop location I think it makes perfect sense. Now this may not be true for rogues with all the benefit mongoose gives, but they aren't the only ones who DW. For warriors at least I still have yet to see anything to show its not worth considering.

Also I am also very interested in a mod that can track the uptime of multiple procs, or even one that can do it from a combat log at this point.

Edit- People posting while I'm typing:
The hard part for figuring out the point where mongoose and executioner pass each other is that it depends on your gear. With a couple drops I could be looking at almost 600 passive armor pen without executioner without any hyjal/bt gear. I also run with under 200 hit rating but higher crit than most. I can see that someone with 250 hit rating, lower crit, and little passive armor pen getting better results from Ex/Mon. Same goes for things like Curse of Recklessness.
Its also something that cant be put into a spreadsheet as accurately as you would think. 840 armor pen with 50% uptime is not the same as passive 420 armor pen. I use a custom dps spreadsheet that recalculates procs based on hit, ect. Without that its hard to see how things interact.
I would suggest that as a general rule, for DW fury warriors only, that executioner and mongoose should be treated as approximately the same dps. Use whichever you feel comfortable using. Even if you pick the worst combination for your gear I doubt that anyone would even notice a change in dps.

"Information is ammunition."

 

ekval

I see Daemona using Exec/Mongoose combination, how would you rate it against Mongoose/Mongoose for rogue (PvE)? I've got in conclusion that with Hemo/Serrated Blades Executioner would be better than Mongoose for rogue mainhand, but after hearing about the 125% -> 110% nerf, I don't think I'm going back to Hemo for PvE, so let this question go for only Combat spec.

 

koaschten

I can't give any objective opinion on that. I lack the mathcraft and those that are firm in it, lack the proper proc-behaviour. Subjectively i can't say a lot either, because i still outgear 95% of our raid-dps. So i still see myself on top of the meter, but if the margin changed, i have no idea honestly. Got lazy lately in terms of uploading data to WWS.

 

Vanadi

Seeing tomorrow is my day off I will see if I can get a 2 hour combat log of hitting the same mob going. I will upload it here then so the people who are good at maths can work with it.

 

mogun

So I've done myself some tests. Dual exec vs. MH only exec. I've used complete BT/WW rotation during the entire duration. My point was to check the uptime of executioner in both cases in a situation closest to real raids. The results were pretty much as i expected. Dual executioner is like 1.5*single exec (in MH at least)

Dual Executioner:

Uptime ~75%
Fight time: 23 mins
WWS
Combat log


Executioner in Mh only:

Uptime ~50%
Fight time: 17 mins
WWS
Combat log
I forgot to make SS on this one

Would be nice to see some other results also tho.

P.S. Yea I know i forgot my BT neck on