[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers - Page 14

nelalas · 11/19/07, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

If theory #2 above is correct, MH Exec/OH Mong should be double Mongoose by about 20 AP-equivalent, or on the order of 5-10 DPS. Hence, while it is most likely the best option, it is also true that anecdotal evidence may have a hard time telling the difference.

Does this include Blessing of Kings, which would increase the agility contribution of Mongoose? Moreover, I think the relative value of these enchants will be interesting to look at under various buff and gear environments (i.e. a spreadsheet) once the proc behavior is confirmed and can be included. The choice for a MH enchant may end up being more personal than a global X is better than Y.

• Aldriana · 11/19/07, 5:40 PM

Originally Posted by nelalas

Does this include Blessing of Kings, which would increase the agility contribution of Mongoose? Moreover, I think the relative value of these enchants will be interesting to look at under various buff and gear environments (i.e. a spreadsheet) once the proc behavior is confirmed and can be included. The choice for a MH enchant may end up being more personal than a global X is better than Y.

Yes, it includes BoK. The 20 AP number was pulled from a modified version of the 0.8 Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, with the default/gear buffs it uses. I will be adding Executioner to the next version of that spreadsheet with the best estimate we have at that point for the proc rate.

Neckface · 11/20/07, 2:52 AM

Since armor penetration is more than additive, how would one compute the inflection point where Executioner > Mongoose for a rogue's MH? It seems like the inflection point, if it's greater than zero, would be at an actual armor value for your target, as opposed to one's own armor penetration. Maybe start with armor value of 840 and see if Executioner is better in the best case scenario. If so, you could work backwards from there and for a given rogue's gear setup figure out which bosses favor which enchants.

Aten · 11/20/07, 5:02 AM

Executioner Test - ~2H20

The tests were run with 3 mods working at same:

Procmeter - counts procs only when it gains
Procwatch - counts proc when it Gains and when it Fades
Uptimemeter - tells you % of time it was up and runing

I made for tests of ~35m each, all 4 in battle ST and only auto-attack.

Test 1 - only 1 weapon(talon 2.7) with Executioner used and in MH

Test 2 - only 1 weapon(talon 2.7) with Executioner used and in OH

This test also includes the hit from my unarmed MH

Test 3 - MH(dragonstrike 2.7) with Moongose and OH(Talon 2.7) with Executioner

Test 4 - MH(Talon 2.7) with Executioner and OH(Fist S2 1.5) with Mongoose

Dont have a slower weapon with mongoose to put on OH to this test, but the fist also dont have the high haste proc from dragonstrike.

My tests show that the uptime is around 9 minutes (average) in the 35 minutes of the test.

the PPM is the same on MH as is on OH - 1.8
(except on my first test that is 1.4, this may be cause of less Flurry uptime on this test for sure)

Im not a theorycrafter by nature by is pretty obvious that it doesnt matter in what hand the weapon is MH/OH to have the same PPM.

u can see the test screenies for yourself and debate freely.

PS: i dunno i to get the Combat logs u require, but hope this helps a bit.

Edit: My build is 17/44 with precison 2/3 and WM 2/2, also i was on my crap PvP gear for more HP

Borodin · 11/20/07, 6:28 AM

Throwing this in here on a pure hunch: if there is a new proc rate mechanic based on weapon speed what if it's based off the normalized speeds (1.7 for Daggers, 2.4 for 1H and 3.3 for 2H?).

Cottonface · 11/20/07, 1:28 PM

Here is some data from our recent BT / MH run. MH (Blade of Infamy) 2.6 speed Executioner, OH (Blade of Savagery) 1.4 speed Mongoose.

High Warlord Naj'entus (5 min / 4 min dps-time)
Melee: 302 hits
Sinister Strike: 60 hits
Executioner: 5 (65 sec uptime of 290 sec: 22%)

Teron Gorefiend (5 min / 5 min dps-time)
Melee: 325 hits
Sinister Strike: 64 hits
Executioner: 5 (65 sec uptime of 270 sec: 24%)

Gortogg Bloodboil (8 min / 8 min dps-time)
Melee: 422 hits
Sinister Strike: 91 hits
Executioner: 9 (120 sec uptime of 460 sec: 26%)

Mother Shahraz (7 min / 7 min dps-time)
Melee: 497 hits
Sinister Strike: 103 hits
Executioner: 10 (150 sec uptime of 410 sec: 36%)

Illiadan Stormrage (18 min / 9 min dps-time)
Melee: 582 hits
Sinister Strike: 102 hits
Executioner: 18 (270 sec uptime of 1090: 25%)

Anetheron (5 min / 4.5 min dps-time)
Melee: 410 hits
Sinister Strike: 65hits
Executioner: 8 (120 sec uptime of 270: 44%)

Kaz'rogal (3 min / 3 min dps-time)
Melee: 214 hits
Sinister Strike: 43 hits
Executioner: 5 (75 sec uptime of 197: 38%)

Archimonde (7 min / 6 min dps-time)
Melee: 290 hits
Sinister Strike: 64 hits
Executioner: 7 (105 sec uptime of 420: 25%)

Dots · 11/20/07, 6:21 PM

Executioner on [Torch of the Damned], full prot spec and gear, so no haste except for the mace itself (3.8 attack speed reduced to 3.68). Log: Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Hits: 1195
Uptime periods: 78
Approx. number of procs: 95
Chance to proc: 7.95%
PPM at base speed (3.8 sec): 1.255

And if it matters
PPM at hasted speed (3.68): 1.296

hannigaholic · 11/20/07, 6:24 PM

Originally Posted by Neckface

Since armor penetration is more than additive, how would one compute the inflection point where Executioner > Mongoose for a rogue's MH? It seems like the inflection point, if it's greater than zero, would be at an actual armor value for your target, as opposed to one's own armor penetration.

Surely it's dictated by both, since they both have an impact on the effectiveness of the -840 from Executioner (it's worth more if the target has lower armor and it's also worth more if you already have more Armor Penetration).

You could simplify things a little and say it's based on your opponents current personal effective armor (IE how much armor is affecting your personal damage on that target at that time) but that's just another way of saying exactly the same thing.

Danath · 11/20/07, 7:17 PM

I finally got the enchant on my Talon of Azshara!I am a Fury Warrior. If you wish, I can help you with some data collection...If it is still needed.

BTW, it seems great in both looks and effect, though I have yet to test it extensively.

Warhound · 11/20/07, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Aten

My tests show that the uptime is around 9 minutes (average) in the 35 minutes of the test.

the PPM is the same on MH as is on OH - 1.8
(except on my first test that is 1.4, this may be cause of less Flurry uptime on this test for sure)

Sadly, I think you will have to spec out of flurry and not use Dragonstrike on your MH for more accurate data, Flurry/Haste as far as I understand screws up with PPM

Malan · 11/20/07, 10:44 PM

It shouldn't, there was a big thread on this awhile back and they decided based on PTR 2.3 testing that haste did not change PPM.

amethyst · 11/21/07, 5:05 AM

Kinda.

If you're just auto-attacking, then haste shouldn't affect your overall PPM. It seems that the "chance per hit" is re-calculated based upon your current (hasted) weapons speed rather than the base.

e.g If the enchant has an assumed 1 ppm base and you have an attack speed of 2.00, then you'll attack 30 times in a minute and on average one of those attacks will proc, giving you 1/30 or 3.33% chance per hit that the enchant procs. If you had a weapon speed of 3.00 then you'll attack 20 times in a minute, for 1/20 or 5.00% chance per hit.

Interestingly, any instant attacks you make should also have the same percentage, so the lower your attack speed (more haste) then less chance for the enchant to proc from your instant attacks, therefore overall less procs I would guess?

• Aldriana · 11/21/07, 5:26 AM

Perhaps they *should* have the same proc rate, but in practice they seem not to; the testing in the thread that determined the rest of the proc mechanics indicated that instant attacks seem to use the unmodified weapon speed.

amethyst · 11/21/07, 8:11 AM

Ah, I'd missed that bit, that's worth knowing, thanks!

koaschten · 11/21/07, 8:26 AM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Perhaps they *should* have the same proc rate, but in practice they seem not to; the testing in the thread that determined the rest of the proc mechanics indicated that instant attacks seem to use the unmodified weapon speed.

This should be easily determined by a "Turn away until only specials hit" Test. I just can't see myself spamming 1000+ sinister strikes to just get a fraction of a worthy test-sample :X