Upon patch 2.3 dropping, i respecced to 11/27/23. That being said, i was really looking forward to executioner, used to DW mongoose, but i figured id try this out. It has worked amazingly well for me, it seems as though it is providing more DPS than the mongoose did, but i dont have a WWS yet to back it up. Should have one tonight (tues), as it is raid night. The uptime is crazy on executioner, though. I tend to feel that for the hemo build executioner may shine a bit more because of serrated blades, but when i, eventually, go back to combat, it will probably be uite good as well.
Cant link my armory, right now, as the site is down for maintenance.. but im mainhanding a Talon of azshara, offhanding Latros (glad offhand when servers come up) and have most of the SSC gear, a 351 hit rating (with talbuk food) and 1795 unbuffed AP.. just for baseline.
A warrior on the WoW forums posted that if you have Dual Executioner enchnats, that if the OH "procs" while the MH has procced, the OH proc is queued until the MH expires then applies to debuff. He didn't offer any proof to this statement, but could this account for some of the disjointed numbers people are finding?
Pure rubbish. If this were true, all Executioner uptime periods would be a multiple of 15 seconds. They're not, as can be seen by even a cursory look at any of the logs in this thread.
I have been reading this thread now two times, but i cant find any conclusion about rogues. Is it too soon to say?
For Warriors and Shamans its seems pretty much settled. MH = Exectioner & OH = Mongoose.
But for rogues, specially raid/pve rogues its more uncertain, and with the season 3 of arena coming it would be really nice to know which is the better one. Im assuming im not the only one eager to upgrade my weapons
So, what say you wow junkies and jerks, which is the supperior enchant for raid/pve rogues?
Indeed- except I'm more concerned with PvP.
With the armor pen on the S3 items/weapons, and with typical PvP armor values... what's best?
Bear in mind at least, that the dodge from Mongoose definitely has some value, especially for the 'warrior tanking' AR/Prep spec. Then again, with same spec, the 10% extra AP makes Mongoose even better...
I still kind of want Executioner to come out on top- would be a nice change and has a cool graphic... but yeah. Not convinced yet.
Here is some rough theorycrafting on the matter that might be useful for people to visualise. I have read up on this thread and decided to have a crack at trying to account for all factors that abound from two different enchanting solutions. It is important to understand that i may have errors on a number of points, so i'd appreciate a critique of my assumptions. From here on in, E = Executioner, M = Mongoose. This is strictly for rogues, Warriors obviously will get a lesser benefit from M/M and a greater benefit from E/M, so the choice is simple.
For the Executioner Benefit %:
The DR% formula at level 70 is DR% = A/(A+10157)
The Delta DR% is therefore DRD% = (A-840)/(A+9317)
- These were taken from Wowwiki with the levels subbed in.
By determining ratio of these two, i was able to plot a relationship of Armor vs Executioner Benefit. My entire analysis was based on being unitless, so that you can attain factors to give an indication on how much better or worse you will be in a scenario with a particular enchant.
With 300 Paperdoll DPS:
** Just so we're clear - the plateau on both graphs is because ~4000 armor is taken off from common debuffs. Since negative armor doesnt have an increased effect, Executioner gets capped here.
For the Mongoose section, I started by using the Paperdoll DPS value on an armory sheet, since it accounts for your AP and weapon DPS. My Assumtions are:
* Hit cap is reached
* Specced into Lethality
* At all times CoR, 5xSunder and FF are up
* The rogue has about 33% crit when buffed in a raid
A factor of 6% was applied to determine the relative increase in damage from the critical increase from an additional mongoose proc. (When comparing M/M to E/M) also, the increase in haste and extra 120AP was accounted for. This particular figure i wouldnt mind a bit of help on. I went with a probability lineup and worked out how much crit 120 more agi gives for a rogue, then compared the damage assuming a lot of hits took place in a proc, then worked out as a % how much more that was without the proc.
To account for the haste increase on a mongoose proc, i reviewed a number of WWS logs and i estimated that ~ 55% of a rogue's damage is affected by the haste effect of mongoose. So in reality, that 2% from the haste only affects 55% of the damage. As a reminder, I'm using percentages and eventually factors, so that the data can be applied over a much broader set of scenarios.
Let's go with most bosses having ~7700 armor. Many sources will quote this. The mob has to be debuffed for this to be true but these are the values from the top graph.
So in practice, you might create a hypothetical scenario where two identical rogues SS a mob. One had an E/M and one had an M/M arrangement.
At 325 Paperdoll DPS, if you had a M/M arrangement, and an SS hit for 500 - it would have hit for 570 had you had E/M.
At 175 Paperdoll DPS, if you had a M/M arrangement, and an SS hit for 500 - it would have hit for 455 had you had E/M.
As Paperdoll DPS increases, E/M increases
As Mob Armor Decreases, E/M increases
Again, please dont quote these as precise values, but this will hopefully clear up a bit of confusion and will help visualise the Two enchanting solutions.
Last edited by Nimiety : 11/27/07 at 9:14 AM.
Neither the most popular pve hemo or the pvp hemo spec lethality. I guess its assumed for a combat swords build without serrated blades then?
First up; I am not a rogue. Plain and simple. But i was interested in seeing what kind of relationship E/M had against M/M. From what i know, a number of rogues in our guild were specced into Lethailty (230% crit damage on specials). If you dont have lethality, it will decrease the worth of M/M slightly, since the extra crit % from M/M will be less of a blow if your specials are hitting at 200% not 230%. I could run it again with 200% if you wish, but itll only spell a clearer victory for M/M.
PS, i did attempt to account for combat potency, so yes, i am going off a primarily combat spec. But if you must know - yes M/M gets slightly worse if you dont have Lethality
The paper doll DPS seems rather low in the examples. I am by no stretch of the imagination a well-geared rogue, yet my paper doll DPS already exceeds the top end example of 350 dps on my paper doll (when including my OH in paper doll DPS).
Therefore I just want to double check, is this taking both MH and OH paper doll DPS or just you’re MH?
Another reason for asking is that; for me, the armoury does not show your OH paper doll DPS
The only thing which isn't clear on your graph is that, in PvE raid, if the mob/boss is debuff totally (which can count for 4k AR reduction) and if the mob/boss armor is 4k, the executioner enchant interest drops to nothing.
For the cc DPS, we gain nothing from debuffing an armor under 0. So, we an conclude that :
In PvE, Executioner + Mongoose is a good combination as far as the mob gets at least 4k of AR (which is the case anyway).Fully debuffed before an executioner proc, a mob/boss must have still 3k of armor. So, following your results, at 7k armor, executioner still give an 8% gain from executioner on the Paper Doll DPS.
And the more the target's armor reach the maximum possible debuff value, the more executioner will be great. But... Too much is worst than too good.
In PvP, Executioner is a good enchant as far as the target still have some armor. In your strategy is to 'open' your victim via an Improved Expose Armor (as a rogue) on a cloth-geared one, an executioner proc won't be worth the cost of the enchant.
In fact, cloth gear is around 3k5 of armor. Give the rogue few Ignore armor items and the Imroved Expose Armor talent and the Clothy will have 0 armor soon enough. Add a useless executioner proc above and you'll be sure to have loose money.
With the S3 stuff coming in (and the new heroïc badges since 2.3), we get a lot of ignore armor stuff that will lessen the Executioner interest (because target armor will be too low anyway).
Last edited by finduluin : 11/27/07 at 8:34 AM.
Reason: add some space for clarity
And if US armory was up, i could link you our rogue with MH warglaive and a few pieces of T6, and from memory, unbuffed he had 256.3 Paperdoll. Pity US armory isnt up so i could have a look ..
That MH paper doll DPS seems rather low in comparison to my own. I still wield the mighty Vindicator's Brand and yet my paper doll DPS is 215.5 un-buffed on my MH. And with the increase in DPS from my gear to a true end game rogue, I would expect the DPS on the paper doll to be far greater than my own. Is it not more 356.3 than 256.3?
On further investigation I discovered that it is more realistic to be 256.3 than 356.3 as looking at other rogues BT level rogues there paper doll DPS is around 250 mark. Guess I was overestimating the gear gap in terms of paper doll dps from myself to a BT rogue.
The graph is rubbish. It says that Executioner is better than Mongoose when used on a zero-armor target. This is not the case, as Executioner has no benefit on a zero-armor target - Mongoose of course will give a considerable benefit. Something is clearly fundamentally wrong with your modelling, and there is no point discussing this until it is fixed..