Stryker159

By utilising the unbuffed white DPS posted above, and the relevent physical damage mitigation of armour values in reference to the following post:

we can guage per armour point where mongoose or Executioner would be the better enchant, assuming an identical uptime. We can just use armour values of 10000 and lower as boss mobs in game so far do not have values even that high, plus giving us a scope to work with.

With this data, we then just need an accurate pr/ppm to get a more final decision where theorycraft is concerned. As to which enchant will be better, I think it will depend on the gear of the character and the player buffs/raid debuffs.

It is safe to say that when a mobs armour is 0, mongoose is the better enchant. It would depend on whether Executioner can trump it on creatures with an armour value between 5000 and 1.

 

Stryker159

Ok, time for the math i suggested running in my last post.

By using the formula DR=Armour / (Armour + 11960) to get the Damage reduction to physical damage on a Boss level mob, and 444 DPS as base using Executioner, 483.6 DPS as base using Mongoose, the following is the DPS gains from each enchant at certian armour levels.


From this, it would appear that with an equal uptime, Mongoose is the better enchant to get regardless of armour. The only thing I can see going to Executioners favour is if it has a greater proc rate then Mongoose, which doesnt appear to be the case.

This is going by single enchant. We would need to get more DPS values from Tazzy comparing DW Mong and Mong/Exe to get better results. Mong/Exe would be the same as the current Mong single enchant, just need a double Mong from you.

EDIT: This result is for rogues. Scince Mongoose doesn't give warriors AP, it would be different for them. Let me see if I can crunch some more numbers and get back to you guys.

EDIT 2: OK, got the numbers for warrirors in regards to these enchants. Using my values the same way Tazzy did, my DPS with 10% miss and 30% crit on white damage is

413.16 Base
421.32 With Mong

So it appears that Mong > Exe for rogues, but Exe > Mong for warriors, assuming same uptime. As shaman dont get AP from Agi, I would assume they would follow the same scale as a warrior.

 

Machinator

I really dont like basing any comparison off the 'base' dps on your character sheet. The way special attacks work can make significant changes in its value. This is especially important for warriors for rage generation. If they were so easily compared we wouldnt need anything besides the proc rate.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Stryker159

EDIT: Well, to be honest, it is the only way we can get a somewhat accurate DPS value for 0 armour value on a level 73 mob, as I do not believe there is enough armour pen. gear out to allow a character to achieve this, and trying to derive this from a WWS log is in my opnion impossible due to the fact that so many factors come into play. My understanding of Theorycraft is to first buld a base with as little variables as posssible which can be built upon to draw a conclusion. In regards to DPS, the least variable component of that is White Damage, so I do not see a problem as using it as a 'base' to build upon to where we can get to a more precise conclusion.

My comments on which enchant is better at the bottom is only based on White attacks, so would only be accurate in that circumstance. If we wanted to we could determine the average percentage of White Damage of a warriors/rogues/shamans DPS and apply the correct percentage of my results to that value so we can determine the current overall DPS increase we have found, so it can be built on when more data is collected.

 

• Aldriana

Depending on class and personal preference, either Ex/Mong or Mong/Mong. For more details, read the whole thread.

 

Pstar

I've read the entire thread and I don't understand what the difference between exe/mong and mong/exe is for rogues.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but we basically can't figure out what the proc rate is for exe (PPM and %s both seem wrong, based on the parses and #s i've seen). Uptime seems around 25%, give or take.

Why are we so sure that we should put it on the mainhand? With a fast offhand and a slow mainhand, you're getting more OH hits in than MH.
Here's a VR kill: http://wowwebstats.com/qzwgatasdbsiw?s=10287-10736&a=15
436 melee hits, 84 SS and 21 evis. Of the melee hits, we can assume that the melee hit is in the ratio of the inverse weapon speeds (since haste will affect both of them proportionally). Thus:

(1/2.6) / ( (1/2.6) + (1/2.5) ) = 36.5% will be MH white hits (160 white hits, so 265 including the specials), 276 offhand hits... It would be more discrepant if I could get a 2.7. Is it that you use the specials more when you're blowing cooldowns thereby guaranteeing that your MH enchant will be up when it's most important?

Of course, not knowing the proc mechanics, it's sorta hard to say.... Meanwhile, I think i'll slap it on my alternate OH (i got the one from al'ar the other night) and use it only on lower-armor bosses (vashj/flk/solarian)

 

• Aldriana

So, here's the fundamental point:

Mongoose and Executioner (seem to) proc at the same rate; hence, one can ignore the actual proc rate and look at which is more powerful while it's up.

There are now two cases:

1) Mongoose is more powerful that Executioner. In this case, one should just use double Mongoose, because it's better.

2) Executioner is more powerful than Mongoose. Since Executioner doesn't stack with itself, you thus want to use one Executioner weapon and one Mongoose weapon. Since Executioner is more powerful, you want it on the weapon that will give higher uptime; and as we are quite confident that it is a PPM effect, it will be the MH that has higher uptime. Hence, Executioner/Mongoose would be the way to go.

Stated briefly: if M/E beats M/M, than E/M beats M/E - so you should use E/M. And if M/E doesn't beat M/M, you should just use M/M.

Thus, the only lingering question is whether the Executioner buff beats the Mongoose buff or not, to which the answer seems to be "at high T6 levels of itemization, particularly with the number of low-armor bosses in Hyjal, Executioner tends to be more powerful for combat rogues in PvE. At lower levels of itemization - or for PvP - or as a Mutilate rogue - Mongoose is generally thought to be superior".

 

• Latito

Pstar, keep in mind that those MH hits will each have a higher chance to proc due to it being a PPM effect. Thus because you have more MH instant attacks than OH instant attacks, MH will average a higher uptime.

 

Pstar

What about page 7 post #163? I never saw a good refutation of this... a lot of the theorycrafting starts with "well let's say the proc rate is about the same as mongoose"

 

Halle

Last night I was lucky enough to get the MH glaive, completing my set.

Atm I am trying out dual Executioner as I already had it on my OH (wanted to see how it looked).

I've read through this thread but could anyone tell me why Executioner is classed as best for MH and Mongoose for OH?

I can imagine its due to mongoose being more of a PPM proc and not relying on the OH hitting so much?



[edit] Sorry now I read 2 posts up! I guess its due to MH Hitting more making it the better choice for the more effective proc, which in warriors case is executioner?

 

• Aldriana

More data has been taken, and shown that either a) The Jin'rokh data was a fluke, or b) 2Hers work differently than 1Hers. All data taken since has been consistent with an Executioner proc rate of around 1.2 PPM. Meanwhile, equivalent testing on Mongoose has shown it to be around 1.2-1.3 PPM. So while we haven't managed to prove that they have absolutely the same proc rate, it does seem like the proc rates are, at the very least, pretty darn close. In the absence of sufficient evidence to say conclusively that the proc rates are different, the natural assumption would seem to me to assume that the proc rates are the same. However, if you'd like to take more data with Executioner on a fast weapon, or add to my ever-growing accumulation of data for Mongoose at either 2.7 or 1.4 speed, that will certainly help nail down the proc rates.

 

leebis

Can someone direct me to the post that contains some evidence for the assumption that mainhand attacks proc the enchants more often than offhand attacks?

 

Malan

Poisons should not, special attacks yes.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Rasputin

Instant attacks are made with the main hand weapon, giving a much larger set of attacks that an on-hit enchant can proc from.

 

Eyegore

As I have come to understand this. PPM effects, as mongoose and Ex seem to be, have their actual % chance to proc on any given hit adjusted by weapon speed such that if you were only white attacking the number of procs from both weapons would tend to be the same. However we know that there can also be procs from special attacks for a mainhand enchant, as the white attacks are already giving equal procs from both hands adding in any more procs from specials for the mainhand leads to higher % uptime. The fact that PPM % chance per hit is adjusted based on current weapon speed is born out by logs scattered all over these boards. As I recall the chance to proc on specials is based on base weapon speed not current, but either way the MH enchant has higher uptime than OH assuming the base PPM and duration of effect are the same, or nearly so. I hope I managed to express that correctly

 

• Latito

To Clarify:
PPM stands for Procs Per Minute. All this means is that the % chance to proc an effect is based on weapon speed, not a fixed %. This is so that faster weapons will (on average) get the same number of procs over a fixed period of time as a slower weapon. Hence, Procs Per Minute (instead of Procs Per Attack).

Examples:
1 PPM, 1.5spd weapon.
60 / 1.5 = 40 attacks per minute.
1 / 40 = 2.5% chance per attack to proc.

1 PPM, 2.6spd weapon.
60 / 2.6 = 23.077 attacks per minute
1 / 23.077 = 4.33% chance per attack to proc.

20% chance, 1.5 speed weapon (some poisons, WF, etc)
every attack has a 20% chance to proc, regardless of speed. More attacks per minute = more procs.


With a PPM type scenario, if you were to ONLY auto attack, you would theoretically get the same number of procs for MH and OH given a large enough sample size. That is, white dmg MH and OH attacks cancel each other out - that is what PPM is designed to do. However, you are also getting WF attacks, Sword Spec attacks and instants with the MH. This results in *nearly* as many MH attacks per second as OH attacks per second. However, each MH attack has a higher chance to proc, due to the slower speed. This is why you put the stronger enchant on your MH, since you do more instant attacks with the MH. If you Shiv'd and Sinister Striked an equal amount, you would STILL have a higher uptime with the MH because each of those extra attacks is with a slower weapon (higher chance to proc per attack).

Note that this holds true for Rogues and Warriors. Shamans however have only one instant weapon-based attack, Stormstrike... which hits with both weapons. Thus, the Shaman should put the more powerful enchant on his slower weapon (it almost doesn't matter, but the chance to proc on Stormstrikes will be *slightly* higher with a slower weapon). If a shaman has two equal-speed weapons.. it doesn't matter what hand gets what. Mutilate rogues are similar, however they only want Mongoose anyways.

 

Malloron

So it seems Executioner MH /Mongoose OH is the logical choice for DW Fury.

I am not 100% sure if I understood your logic here, but does this meana slow/slow weapon setup would gain more Enchant procs from Haste than a Slow/fast?

Pair up Dragonstrike(Execu) + Talon of Aszhara(Mongo), meaning Id have 2.7 / 2.7, and according to your math ~4-5% chance to proc per hit. This Proc chance comes out of BASE weapon speed, meaning the chance to proc stays even if you reduce your attackspeed through haste by X % ?

 

• Latito

Best guesses from the parses provided are:
Proc Chance for auto attacks varies with Haste (it is based on CURRENT weap speed)
Proc Chance for special attacks is based on BASE weap speed.

The difference from haste is so small though.. its really hard to get a conclusive answer.

 

Machinator

3) Executioner is much more powerful than Mongoose, and the extra uptime(not stacking) of Executioner outweighs/equals the benefit of mongoose.

I feel a lot of people just dismiss that one but it does happen, though probably not for rogues since they gain more from mongoose. This is also the part where proc rate is important to determine how much overlap there is.


As for haste attacks there has not been any conclusive test that I have seen. But it seems to point towards instants use % based off base weapon speed, and normal hits use a % based off the current(hasted) speed. This creates a cap on average uptime regardless of your weapon speeds.
Also you can find lots of data about the proc rates here.

"Information is ammunition."

 

Malloron

Even if Prochance IS affected/reduced by increased attackspeed, the PPM should be the same (Expected procs per minute).

Thanks. ill go with double Executioner.

 

Illundai

As mentioned in the Enhancement Shaman thread, I've been running 2 lockouts with double Executioner now after running with Mongoose/Executioner for a long while. I have noticed no significant difference. Although, Shaman DPS does vary a lot, so it may skew my results. It seems to me that for Enhancement at least it boils down to personal flavour. Sometimes I did more DPS with Exec/Exec, sometimes Mong/Exec came out on top. So it's very close to eachother.

Yes, Death Knight tanks are/were too good in 3.0.x. Having 38k HP, 76.81% Avoidance (Miss incl.) and not gimping your threat in the first tier of gear is broken. (Yes this is clickable)

 

leebis

Thanks Latitio, nice explanation.
Is there a UI out there that displays which weapon is proccing the enchant?

 

mogun

I don't think the game send this info to the combat log or somewhere else.

 

Malloron

Read the whole thread again, and I couldnt find info about the executioner buff being applied to both weapons when dualwielding?

I assume it does, but if it doesnt, Mongoose has to be a better choice for Offhand, no?

Please tell me it is a buff for both weapons even if the tooltip says "Permanently enchant a melee weapon to occasionally ignore 840 of your opponents armor"..

 

koaschten

It's several times mentioned that dualwielding Executioner will increase uptime as it refreshes the buff. Two Enchants do NOT stack as Mongoose does.