[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers - Page 17

Malloron · 01/14/08, 7:38 AM

If icon on screen means executioner buff is applied to YOU that is fine. If the 840 less AC works only on offhand, the icon would still be there.

Halle · 01/14/08, 7:40 AM

Originally Posted by koaschten

It's several times mentioned that dualwielding Executioner will increase uptime as it refreshes the buff. Two Enchants do NOT stack as Mongoose does.

Exactly as said here and the buff is to your whole damage output, not just the hand that procs it.

It could be better than mong/exe if you could guarantee they procced at different times. However there is nothing to stop them proccing directly next to each other and thus wasting a proc.

I tested dual executioner for a couple of raids and wasnt unhappy with the results. Give it a go and see how you like it.

Malloron · 01/14/08, 7:46 AM

Spank you, Halle.

• Latito · 01/14/08, 1:03 PM

As to "which hand procs the buff?"
As far as the combat log (and thus what we as players can tell, no indication is given. However, in the UI if you have dual mongoose, if both are proc'd at the same time and one refreshes, the client does show which mongoose is refreshed. I would guess that somewhere the server is telling the client which proc was refreshed. That said, the client may not be aware of which weapon a particular buff applies to - just that buff A got reset to 15 sec.

Machinator · 01/14/08, 7:50 PM

Well refreshing is an interesting combat log thing with executioner. If the buff is already up, and you get a proc with the same hand, the buff simply refreshes to 15s and nothing is shown in the combat log. If the other hands procs, the combat log will show an immediate fade and gain of executioner.

◊ Turik · 01/14/08, 7:56 PM

Personally, I'd suggest posting in the UI Forums: WoW Forums -> UI & Macros Forum

Dev feedback there is pretty active, and mentioning weapon (or enchant) "procs" as something to be included in the 2.4 revised combat log sounds like a pretty solid request, if not already implemented

lazerpewpew · 01/14/08, 8:05 PM

ah thank you for finally explaining what PPM means.

Originally Posted by Latito

To Clarify:
PPM stands for Procs Per Minute. All this means is that the % chance to proc an effect is based on weapon speed, not a fixed %. This is so that faster weapons will (on average) get the same number of procs over a fixed period of time as a slower weapon. Hence, Procs Per Minute (instead of Procs Per Attack).

Examples:
1 PPM, 1.5spd weapon.
60 / 1.5 = 40 attacks per minute.
1 / 40 = 2.5% chance per attack to proc.

1 PPM, 2.6spd weapon.
60 / 2.6 = 23.077 attacks per minute
1 / 23.077 = 4.33% chance per attack to proc.

20% chance, 1.5 speed weapon (some poisons, WF, etc)
every attack has a 20% chance to proc, regardless of speed. More attacks per minute = more procs.

With a PPM type scenario, if you were to ONLY auto attack, you would theoretically get the same number of procs for MH and OH given a large enough sample size. That is, white dmg MH and OH attacks cancel each other out - that is what PPM is designed to do. However, you are also getting WF attacks, Sword Spec attacks and instants with the MH. This results in *nearly* as many MH attacks per second as OH attacks per second. However, each MH attack has a higher chance to proc, due to the slower speed. This is why you put the stronger enchant on your MH, since you do more instant attacks with the MH. If you Shiv'd and Sinister Striked an equal amount, you would STILL have a higher uptime with the MH because each of those extra attacks is with a slower weapon (higher chance to proc per attack).

Note that this holds true for Rogues and Warriors. Shamans however have only one instant weapon-based attack, Stormstrike... which hits with both weapons. Thus, the Shaman should put the more powerful enchant on his slower weapon (it almost doesn't matter, but the chance to proc on Stormstrikes will be *slightly* higher with a slower weapon). If a shaman has two equal-speed weapons.. it doesn't matter what hand gets what. Mutilate rogues are similar, however they only want Mongoose anyways.

Basil Vulpine · 02/07/08, 10:05 PM

Reading through the posts where people were trying to establish ppm for Executioner, one thing struck me and I'm wondering if it's me being ignorant or something that I've spotted because I play a rogue & I'm tempted with an odd spec on my slowly levelling druid.

There is an assumption that casters cannot dodge while casting a spell. From what I've seen, the Panzerkin spec has an element of dodging while casting wrath (which is one casting animation) which doesn't occur during Star Fire or Moon Fire (which have a different animation).

Is this a PC mechanic only or does this have to be taken in to account when trying to determine ppm?

I'm aware that most of the testing was done versus servants in blasted lands and so it doesn't hugely affect the results here, this did however seem the best place to ask this question.

Jarush · 02/13/08, 6:50 PM

Seems we have a clear answer regarding rogues now:

Originally Posted by Aldriana

So, um, I have some bad news for some of you. I was working on the sheet a bit today and found a rather significant bug in the Xs5r and Xs3r sheets, which, stated briefly, is counting the haste benefit on Mongoose towards your DPS whether you have Mongoose or not. What does this mean in practice? It means that if your recommended cycle was Xs5r or Xs3r (which is most combat sword/fist/dagger rogues, and some hemo rogues), then:

1) Your DPS estimate was a little high, and, more relevantly:
2) The value of Mongoose was being underestimated.

So, the bad news is: the previous comparisons between Mongoose and Executioner were, basically, just plain wrong. Mongoose was being undervalued, which made Executioner look better than it really is. So the established answer of "Executioner may be slightly better at high gear levels"... turns out to be incorrect. The new answer is, basically: "Mongoose is always better.". It's not necessarily a *lot* better in all situations... but it's better.

My apologies to any of you that have sprung for an Executioner enchant already.

Briefly: Mongoose > Executioner for rogues

Machinator · 02/14/08, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by Basil Vulpine

Reading through the posts where people were trying to establish ppm for Executioner, one thing struck me and I'm wondering if it's me being ignorant or something that I've spotted because I play a rogue & I'm tempted with an odd spec on my slowly levelling druid.

There is an assumption that casters cannot dodge while casting a spell. From what I've seen, the Panzerkin spec has an element of dodging while casting wrath (which is one casting animation) which doesn't occur during Star Fire or Moon Fire (which have a different animation).

Is this a PC mechanic only or does this have to be taken in to account when trying to determine ppm?

I'm aware that most of the testing was done versus servants in blasted lands and so it doesn't hugely affect the results here, this did however seem the best place to ask this question.

I dont know about the others, but my tests were done on the DM ogres which dont dodge or do anything. I think its accurate enough for theory.

Dontmindme · 02/14/08, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Basil Vulpine

Reading through the posts where people were trying to establish ppm for Executioner, one thing struck me and I'm wondering if it's me being ignorant or something that I've spotted because I play a rogue & I'm tempted with an odd spec on my slowly levelling druid.

There is an assumption that casters cannot dodge while casting a spell. From what I've seen, the Panzerkin spec has an element of dodging while casting wrath (which is one casting animation) which doesn't occur during Star Fire or Moon Fire (which have a different animation).

Is this a PC mechanic only or does this have to be taken in to account when trying to determine ppm?

I'm aware that most of the testing was done versus servants in blasted lands and so it doesn't hugely affect the results here, this did however seem the best place to ask this question.

Its a good question...the answer isn't so simple.

It seems some mob/boss spell like effects, prevent them from dodging but not all. Generally speaking, those with a cast bar seem to be the ones where they cannot, but I'm not certain if enough testing was done to conclude if this was always the case. Since the goal of the research was to determine dodge rates and acceptable mobs to test on, it was only explored on a case-by-case basis. In terms of PPM, it doesn't matter since all of these effects are "chance on hit". So if one counts the number of successful attacks and takes into account weapon speeds, the dodges don't matter because they are merely more misses.

Narjhan · 02/19/08, 2:18 PM

Is Executioner better on MH then OH, or it's could be the same?

• Aldriana · 02/19/08, 2:23 PM

For a rogue, it has a higher uptime when used on MH which increases the damage contribution. However, the same is true for Mongoose. So there are two cases:

1) Mongoose is better than Executioner. You should use Mongoose.
2) Executioner is better than Mongoose. Due to the stacking issue, you want to use it on one hand. To maximize the benefit gained from it, you want to put it on the higher-uptime hand - i.e., your main hand.

I assume similar logic applies for other dual-wielding classes. Note that for a rogue, case 1 is almost always the applicable one; for the vast majority of rogues, Mongoose is a better option.

Greymist · 04/01/08, 12:37 PM

I just picked up Dragonstrike (finally), which as most of you know includes its own haste effect. Do you think that Executioner/Mongoose would be better for me as a PvP rogue? I know that the general idea seemed to be for PvP Mon/Mon was stronger, but the 2.4 patch notes state "Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other." Does this mean that Mongoose is no longer stacking? Does Mongoose stack with the Dragonstrike haste?

Skjar · 04/01/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Greymist

I just picked up Dragonstrike (finally), which as most of you know includes its own haste effect. Do you think that Executioner/Mongoose would be better for me as a PvP rogue? I know that the general idea seemed to be for PvP Mon/Mon was stronger, but the 2.4 patch notes state "Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other." Does this mean that Mongoose is no longer stacking? Does Mongoose stack with the Dragonstrike haste?

The mongoose buff is a self-buff, so that change has no effect on it.

madmardigan83 · 04/01/08, 2:30 PM

I understand this topic was started in late of 07, and at the time it was very hard to determine which buff was better.

But how about now? I know it's not a simple "X is better" answer... but are there any conclusive ideas/finding upon the matter? (most of what I see is that the proc rate is still up in the air for exec.?)

My best guess is that most likely it'd be easiest to portray in a graph setting with different graphs for different variables? All graphs would have DPS as the Y axis and the X axis would be whatever main variables come into play... Armor on target, Passive Amor Pen, Swingspeed(?), 2h, DW, gear level, etc. And there would be three lines (mongoose, savagery, and executioner) that went up/down/stayed the same depending on the X axis variable.

This is just my best guess at how it could be portrayed since it's a difficult comparion. However, has there been some headway on this topic as of late and perhaps I've just missed it?

I am tossing the idea around of working on some of my own calculations and seeing if I can put together some spreadsheets... But in all bluntness I don't want to recreate the wheel and if there are formulas and findings in place already, there is no reason to do redo the work. I also work a LOT and finding the time to do this would be difficult.

I'm working towards 1850 and so I'll be picking up the VG Bonegrinder and would want to know the best enchant for it. Sport the executioner or go with the tried and true Savagery. I hear both can be good... but thats why my interest is peaked here in this topic.

So... any findings that I just simply missed?

• Aldriana · 04/01/08, 2:55 PM

As far as anyone can tell, Executioner and Mongoose have the same proc rate, and it's about 1.2 PPM; any class with a reasonably solid spreadsheet implementation should be able to figure out from there which is better. Consensus for rogues seems to be that Mongoose > Executioner in almost all situations; I'm not aware of any similar conclusion for other classes, but it wouldn't surprise me if such things exist.

As a quick ballpark estimate for which is better: check which is better for your class, 7 Armor Pen or 1 agi; if 1 agi is better, Mongoose will be better. If 7 Armor Pen is slightly better, they're probably about the same (due to the Mongoose haste). And if 7 Armor Pen is significantly better, Executioner is probably the way to go.