Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Urban Rivals
Forums
New Posts


Go Back   Elitist Jerks > Public Discussion > Class Mechanics
Elitist Jerks Login

gamerDNA Login

Welcome to Elitist Jerks
We're testing some new features on the site regarding OpenID registration and coordination with gamerDNA. If you experience any issues with registering an account, please take the time to fill out a report and send it to this e-mail address. We would appreciate any assistance you could provide in making sure everything is functioning as intended. Thanks!

If this is your first visit, please be sure to check out the FAQ and the forum rules. Users must register to post and new registrations are subject to a one day "mute" period to get acquainted with the community.

Reply
 
LinkBack (1157) Thread Tools
Old 10/13/07, 7:48 PM   #26
suicuique
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by Silvos View Post
Correct me if i am wrong since i am not 100% sure about what i will just say , but isnt the armor of most bosses reduced close to 0 with the use of sunders CoR and Faire Fire ? If that is true what is the value of that enchant in pve beyond some enoucnters that the boss has unusually high armor or trash mobs
You can simply test your assumption by thunderclapping any boss with said debuffs on him.
TC has a *VERY* small damage range (almost constant) as hinted by the tooltip, and is mitigated by armor.

Unless we are talking squishy mobs like Solarian/Akama/Aran... most raid bosses have still a lot of armor after all the debuffs applied.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 7:49 PM   #27
Loshiis
Von Kaiser
 
Loshiis's Avatar
 
Troll Hunter
 
<Woe>
Maelstrom
Any news on whether ranged attacks proc Executioner, and if the armor penetration applies to ranged attacks? Considering Mongoose doesn't, I'm pessimistic, but if it does proc, then Executioner would almost certainly be better than 35 agility or 2x 20 agility enchants.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 7:51 PM   #28
Silvos
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warrior
 
Kazzak (EU)
Ah so the bosses have less than 3k armor after all those are applied .
I thought they had 3k total armor
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 7:53 PM   #29
Eledorian
Piston Honda
 
Eledorian's Avatar
 
Night Elf Warrior
 
Hellfire (EU)
Originally Posted by Silvos View Post
Ah so the bosses have less than 3k armor after all those are applied .
I thought they had 3k total armor
There's a nice thread about SSC/TK armor value's bosswise. [RAID] Boss armor values

Surprsingly Solarian doesn't have absurdly low armor.

Originally Posted by Loshiis View Post
Any news on whether ranged attacks proc Executioner, and if the armor penetration applies to ranged attacks? Considering Mongoose doesn't, I'm pessimistic, but if it does proc, then Executioner would almost certainly be better than 35 agility or 2x 20 agility enchants.
I'm guessing Executioner won't proc from ranged attacks. Seeing as it's an enchant on a melee weapon I'm guess blizzard are going to follow the same mechanic for it as they did for Crusader and Mongoose.

Meaning it will most likely only proc off melee hits.

Last edited by Eledorian : 10/13/07 at 7:59 PM.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 7:55 PM   #30
royaljester
Piston Honda
 
Human Rogue
 
Destromath
I was under the impression that a bosses armor per mitigation wasn't a linear curve. Essentially, if he had 8k armor and XX%, having 4K armor wouldn't equal 1/2 XX%.

If this is true (I'm assuming), then wouldnt this enchant be more powerful when reducing armor = MORE mitigation, either high or low, depending on which way the curve goes.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 7:59 PM   #31
 Vulajin
Now with 100%* less failure.
 
Vulajin's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
In general, most bosses have 7700. Sunders reduce it by 2600, FF reduces it by 610, and CoR is another 800. Total comes out to 3690.

(edit) To add some content to this post, I did a quick test similar to what Aldriana did. If you assume that Mongoose and Executioner have the exact same proc behavior, then you can assume that they have the exact same uptime. Doing this, I found Executioner to be slightly inferior to Mongoose. Interestingly, as I decreased the target's armor, Mongoose became more superior to Executioner.

(edit 2) Note this is all for a combat rogue.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 8:38 PM   #32
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
PSGarak's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
Something to keep in mind is that, being an entirely separate stat, armor reduction's effect is multiplied by AP and vice-versa, and so on with hit and crit and stuff. Once we understand the proc's behavior a bit better, it would be worthwhile finding the point where executioner surpasses mongoose.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 9:16 PM   #33
xumie
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Kilrogg
OH mongoose (1.5 speed) has a longer uptime than MH executioner (2.6 speed) (it's hard to tell from the WWS because mongoose refreshes itself a lot, so it looks like there's fewer procs). For PvE I still think that Mongoose will be the superior enchant, but Executioner will be king in PvP.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 9:24 PM   #34
Urraca
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Mug'thol
Originally Posted by ArkamisImm View Post

So executioner > mongoose for a 5pt Evi almost by a factor of 5. I haven't run any numbers on auto-attack or sin strike, and clearly these numbers are going to change based on boss armor values, but right now it's looking extremely hot.
Except end game rogues don't use evis 90% of the time.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 9:29 PM   #35
Macblade
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Windrunner
Originally Posted by Urraca View Post
Except end game rogues don't use evis 90% of the time.
Yes the testing/theory crafting for rogues would be much more helpful if we focused on total, white damage or at least sinister strikes. Eviserate is not a finisher that people use except for poison/bleed immune bosses.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/13/07, 10:22 PM   #36
 Rob
Paid $25 To Raid
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by Silvos View Post
Correct me if i am wrong since i am not 100% sure about what i will just say , but isnt the armor of most bosses reduced close to 0 with the use of sunders CoR and Faire Fire ? If that is true what is the value of that enchant in pve beyond some enoucnters that the boss has unusually high armor or trash mobs
You are wrong. See [RAID] Boss armor values
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 1:02 AM   #37
ArkamisImm
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Thunderhorn
Originally Posted by Urraca View Post
Except end game rogues don't use evis 90% of the time.
Yes, I am very aware. But this is a first order estimate, so I used the easiest ability I could think of.

I posted my results for Sin Strike a few posts down.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 5:25 AM   #38
Northerner
Great Tiger
 
Northerner's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
The first thing that came to my mind about Executioner is that it will certainly be an interesting twink enchant. Reducing armor is one of the few (remaining) things that scales best on lower opposing stat values.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 5:27 AM   #39
Xaoc
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Eitrigg
It requires a Lv60+ weapon. I'm not sure if its worth the effort twinking for 60 BGs (I know I wouldnt spend the time for a 60 twink).
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 5:59 AM   #40
Pazuit
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Argent Dawn
If anyone needs a test subject (Rogue - Alliance - PvP/When PvE is up again I'll have a character there as well) for dual wielding, and has the mats/enchant available, I can facilitate a person.

Just drop me a PM or something here, keep up the good work guys!
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 10:14 AM   #41
soujeh
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
The question on my mind is how will the battle of the enchants work out for a 2H MS warrior in PvP Considering you're not hitting your target 100% of the time like in PvE, which could mess with the amount of extra damage you got from a proc. Would be awesome if anyone could log average "uptime" for Mongoose (and Executioner when that arrives) in arena, would need a lot of games though since it changes so much. Also changes with rating, so many factors :<
But for Mongoose to be better than Savagery you would need (from calculating with average PVP gear AP/crit which is pretty much the same for all PvP wars in the high rating-tier) something like 40-45% uptime on it from what I could figure. Sounds high for a PvP enviroment. Many cases where you might for instance hit -> proc -> get polyed, and whatnot.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 4:19 PM   #42
xumie
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by soujeh View Post
The question on my mind is how will the battle of the enchants work out for a 2H MS warrior in PvP Considering you're not hitting your target 100% of the time like in PvE, which could mess with the amount of extra damage you got from a proc. Would be awesome if anyone could log average "uptime" for Mongoose (and Executioner when that arrives) in arena, would need a lot of games though since it changes so much. Also changes with rating, so many factors :<
But for Mongoose to be better than Savagery you would need (from calculating with average PVP gear AP/crit which is pretty much the same for all PvP wars in the high rating-tier) something like 40-45% uptime on it from what I could figure. Sounds high for a PvP enviroment. Many cases where you might for instance hit -> proc -> get polyed, and whatnot.

'Uptime' in the arena is going to be extremely hard to calculate accurately, just because of the variety of things you can be doing in the arena given the makeup of your team and the opposing team.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 4:27 PM   #43
Eylirria
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
I was under the impression that a bosses armor per mitigation wasn't a linear curve. Essentially, if he had 8k armor and XX%, having 4K armor wouldn't equal 1/2 XX%.

If this is true (I'm assuming), then wouldnt this enchant be more powerful when reducing armor = MORE mitigation, either high or low, depending on which way the curve goes.
No armor per mitigation follows a linear curve regarding % reduction. A druid in 30k armor doesnt have twice the mitigation as a warrior with 15k armor. The only linear metric regarding armor and mitigation is "time to live".

You're correct in saying that the more armor you reduce, the more damage you do. If a said raid boss had 30k armor after sunders+FF+CoR, Executioner would only add you a small % of increased damage.

However, going from 3000 to 2200 can be as high as 15%. God help a cloth wearer in an arena match if you happen to proc it.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 4:57 PM   #44
Northerner
Great Tiger
 
Northerner's Avatar
 
Troll Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Xaoc View Post
It requires a Lv60+ weapon. I'm not sure if its worth the effort twinking for 60 BGs (I know I wouldnt spend the time for a 60 twink).
Ah, my error then. I just presumed a level 35 requirement.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 5:58 PM   #45
Flr
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Mazrigos (EU)
I just spent an hour testing executioner enchant in blasted lands. I used stormstrike about every 11 seconds due to lag and had windfury on my weapon. Results below:

WWS Report

Combat Log

Uptime meter screenshots:



 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 6:15 PM   #46
 Vulajin
Now with 100%* less failure.
 
Vulajin's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
You'll have to pardon my ignorance, as I haven't used Uptime Meter before. Which bar indicates the uptime, the blue one?
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 6:24 PM   #47
koaschten
Maniq is awesome.
 
koaschten's Avatar
 
Troll Rogue
 
Nazjatar (EU)
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
You'll have to pardon my ignorance, as I haven't used Uptime Meter before. Which bar indicates the uptime, the blue one?
Blue - Uptime
Red - Downtime
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 7:47 PM   #48
 Rob
Paid $25 To Raid
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Burning Blade
Originally Posted by Flr View Post
I just spent an hour testing executioner enchant in blasted lands. I used stormstrike about every 11 seconds due to lag and had windfury on my weapon. Results below:
This gives the enchant something like a ~115 AEP for Shamans. What's your Mongoose uptime with a similar setup?
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 8:19 PM   #49
epsi
Banned
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Quel'dorei
Hi,

I saw your uptime for executioner but the parse show only 87 procs over 60minutes. Is that a bug or it was refreshing itself all the time ???

tkx for testing!
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Old 10/14/07, 8:27 PM   #50
 Fogbug
๏̯͡๏)
 
Fogbug's Avatar
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
This gives the enchant something like a ~115 AEP for Shamans
So it's essentially a warrior-friendly mongoose. How lovely!

that uptime looks pretty close to what I got with mongoose, but I haven't used mongoose in a while.
 
User is offline.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks > Public Discussion > Class Mechanics

Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Potency vs Mongoose limpshrimp Class Mechanics 2 05/04/07 7:36 PM
Mongoose Enchant rj Class Mechanics 77 04/09/07 5:54 PM
Mongoose Enchant & Hunters Xaviar The Dung Heap 4 03/19/07 6:31 AM