Since armor penetration is more than additive, how would one compute the inflection point where Executioner > Mongoose for a rogue's MH? It seems like the inflection point, if it's greater than zero, would be at an actual armor value for your target, as opposed to one's own armor penetration.
Surely it's dictated by both, since they both have an impact on the effectiveness of the -840 from Executioner (it's worth more if the target has lower armor and it's also worth more if you already have more Armor Penetration).
You could simplify things a little and say it's based on your opponents current personal effective armor (IE how much armor is affecting your personal damage on that target at that time) but that's just another way of saying exactly the same thing.
My tests show that the uptime is around 9 minutes (average) in the 35 minutes of the test.
the PPM is the same on MH as is on OH - 1.8
(except on my first test that is 1.4, this may be cause of less Flurry uptime on this test for sure)
Sadly, I think you will have to spec out of flurry and not use Dragonstrike on your MH for more accurate data, Flurry/Haste as far as I understand screws up with PPM
If you're just auto-attacking, then haste shouldn't affect your overall PPM. It seems that the "chance per hit" is re-calculated based upon your current (hasted) weapons speed rather than the base.
e.g If the enchant has an assumed 1 ppm base and you have an attack speed of 2.00, then you'll attack 30 times in a minute and on average one of those attacks will proc, giving you 1/30 or 3.33% chance per hit that the enchant procs. If you had a weapon speed of 3.00 then you'll attack 20 times in a minute, for 1/20 or 5.00% chance per hit.
Interestingly, any instant attacks you make should also have the same percentage, so the lower your attack speed (more haste) then less chance for the enchant to proc from your instant attacks, therefore overall less procs I would guess?
Perhaps they *should* have the same proc rate, but in practice they seem not to; the testing in the thread that determined the rest of the proc mechanics indicated that instant attacks seem to use the unmodified weapon speed.
Perhaps they *should* have the same proc rate, but in practice they seem not to; the testing in the thread that determined the rest of the proc mechanics indicated that instant attacks seem to use the unmodified weapon speed.
This should be easily determined by a "Turn away until only specials hit" Test. I just can't see myself spamming 1000+ sinister strikes to just get a fraction of a worthy test-sample :X
Maybe it's a cheap call, but Disquette has a thread going about parry mechanics - specifically about it making you, in short, hit faster.
If this is in true, wouldn't that totally invalidate any testing done, especially by prot-warriors, on the 20 levels lower blasted land mobs? They have to be parrying at the speed of rabbits hopped up on all sorts of legal and illegal drugs.
Yes, I'm operating under the assumption that ppm is based off non-hasted attackspeeds.
Well, the assumption is that since parry haste doesn't actually change the listed weapon speed, it shouldn't change the proc rate either; therefore, as long as you count the actual number of attacks rather than simply the duration of the test, there's no problem. It is, of course, possible that that assumption is invalid; but there's really no possible way of testing it, so we sort of have to take our best guess and move on.
Well, the assumption is that since parry haste doesn't actually change the listed weapon speed, it shouldn't change the proc rate either; therefore, as long as you count the actual number of attacks rather than simply the duration of the test, there's no problem. It is, of course, possible that that assumption is invalid; but there's really no possible way of testing it, so we sort of have to take our best guess and move on.
Anyone know if weapon enchants proc on hits on immune mobs? If so you could test proc rates on the mobs people use to skill up weapons in SMV.
A warrior on the WoW forums posted that if you have Dual Executioner enchnats, that if the OH "procs" while the MH has procced, the OH proc is queued until the MH expires then applies to debuff. He didn't offer any proof to this statement, but could this account for some of the disjointed numbers people are finding?
Double executioner is by far the best enchant setup.
Mongoose does not proc more.
To compensate executioner not stacking, if the OH procs while a MH executioner is active, it will wait until the MH executioner has faded to apply the OH executioner, resulting in 30 seconds of uptime and vice versa.
Chain procs result in 30-60 second uptime on executioner. They probably did this because executioner stacking provided an increased benefit (lets say the 1st would give 4% armor reduction while the 2nd would give 5%) where mongoose and other double enchant options did not.
A second Mongoose proc will improve the first through AP/Crit relation and Haste on top of that. I still go with my theory that double Executioner procs would be too much armor penetration for anybody with a few pieces that have it; especially once more -armor gear comes with Sunwell.
If dual Executioner worked the way described above it would mostly function as passive -840 armor, but i strongly doubt offhand procs do more than simply refresh the buff whenever it procs.
"You are better than I am," Inigo admitted. "So it seems. But if that is true, then why are you smiling?"
"Because," Inigo answered, "I know something you don't know." "And what is that?" asked the man in black. "I'm not left-handed."
A possible way that could be used to directly show if there is any relation to instants and proc's would be the rogue’s use of gouge.
Auto attacks stop the instant the rogue uses the move, so no chance of an auto attack to slip in and mess with any test results. (using a stop attack macro will not lead to the same results depending on spec if you get a sword spec proc (if you where specked that way that is) where as the use of gouge, you are unable to get a sword spec proc, thus the hits would be 100% from gouge attacks)
Although standing in front of a mob continually spamming gouge with different weapons speeds may become slightly tedious considering the cooldown of gouge.
My enhancement shaman has 2 [Syphon of the Nathrezim]s. I enchanted my main hand with executioner, the offhand remained with mongoose. I parsed my combat log for mongoose/excutioner buff gains from the time I have the executioner.
"You gain Executioner" - 320 times
"You gain Lightning Speed" - 304 times
3 raid days (BT/Hyjal/ZA clears)
If anyone is interested in the whole log, I can upload it.
Hope I could help.
This is more anecdotal than scientific, but I ran UptimeMeter the past two nights, both nights I was in full ZA clears and after both raids it showed a 42% uptime for Executioner. That includes all the trash as well as boss fights.
Done a BL test on PTR (no change afaik) with two daggers, both 1.8 speed. Exec on mh and mongoose on oh, no haste. Depending on parry mechanics I guess there may be slightly more mh attacks than oh but damage ranges should be easy to separate (no dw-spec).
I have been reading this thread now two times, but i cant find any conclusion about rogues. Is it too soon to say?
For Warriors and Shamans its seems pretty much settled. MH = Exectioner & OH = Mongoose.
But for rogues, specially raid/pve rogues its more uncertain, and with the season 3 of arena coming it would be really nice to know which is the better one. Im assuming im not the only one eager to upgrade my weapons
So, what say you wow junkies and jerks, which is the supperior enchant for raid/pve rogues?
11/20/07, 2:28 PM
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