Another note on CoH vs Imp DS. I have been running 23/38 in Kara and respecing for CoH in ZA. I notice a huge mana regen loss when spec'd CoH but I really believe it is from casting so much more, rather than the loss of Imp DS. I was struggling keeping up with healing as Imp DS spec'd in ZA, but with CoH the other healers have said they noticed a large difference in my output.
Well circle of healing is much better in 5 and 10 man instances, where multiple people who take damage are much more likely to be in the same group. The time you spec Divine Spirit is for High King through Kael'thas. Once you fight Naj'entus, or at the very least Gurtogg, Circle of Healing becomes worth it in 25 man raids.
I've noticed 90-95% from the guys in my guild who have it, but then again I haven't analysed this in much depth and it could just mean they are only using max rank and overhealing more than you are, or some other reason that they would be more qualified to explain than me. I can only really comment on my own healing and I don't currently have the set bonus. 60-70% is a little disheartening though.
I don't actively seek to proc Efficiency, so that could be the difference.
Here is a table showing how much mana my GHs cost, how much they currently hit for raid buffed and what their health healed/mana ratio is. I'm using this site to obtain these values.
These base values of total amount healed are all significantly higher than they should be, and don't match my in game experience. Likely the problem is due that it will add your + dmg from spirit twice if you included it in your raid buffed + healing ( what I'm trying to say is if you're going to look at your paper doll's +healing value leave spirit blank)
W/ 4 pc t6 2250 healing 3/5 emp healing Gheal rank 1 can be expected around 3k even if I had 5/5 emp healing that'd be about 3250. Still significantly below your baseline value and I'm already counting the extra 5%. I don't know what baseline stats you used but I'm going to assume you didn't mean to assume someone was pushing 2650 raid buffed + healing
These base values of total amount healed are all significantly higher than they should be, and don't match my in game experience. Likely the problem is due that it will add your + dmg from spirit twice if you included it in your raid buffed + healing ( what I'm trying to say is if you're going to look at your paper doll's +healing value leave spirit blank)
W/ 4 pc t6 2250 healing 3/5 emp healing Gheal rank 1 can be expected around 3k even if I had 5/5 emp healing that'd be about 3250. Still significantly below your baseline value and I'm already counting the extra 5%. I don't know what baseline stats you used but I'm going to assume you didn't mean to assume someone was pushing 2650 raid buffed + healing
Hm, that makes sense. Not sure why the site asks for spirit at all then.
Since the numbers were for my gear I had put in "2435" for raid buffed +healing. That's what I had a couple of days ago without Wrath of Air but with Kings, Imp. DS and MotW.
These are the new values when I ignore the spirit section. If any of these values are wrong then either I'm doing something wrong (please tell me if so) or there is an error somewhere in the site. I have put 5/5 Empowered Healing because I typically have this.
GH7 (2t5) > GH6 (4t6)
GH6 (2t5) heals for 78 less than GH5 (4t6) but costs 134 less mana
GH5 (2t5) heals for 25 less than GH4 (4t6) but costs 53 less mana
GH4 (2t5) > GH3 (4t6)
GH3 (2t5) > GH2 (4t6)
GH2 (2t5) > GH1 (4t6)
GH1 (2t5) is what you'd have instead of GH7 (4t6)
This calculator wants you to input raw +healing from items (before talents) thats why it ask's for spirit, but there are no way to get it from char screen. However, the auther of this page updates it regularly and implemented Armory import at this link: Priest Healing
There is still one more flaw to be addressed. You assume 100% proc rate of two pc t5. For this information to be useful to priests in general it should be calculated to show at what % of gheals procing 2pc is necessary to maintain the efficiency/throughput advantage. I know I regularly had procs in the 70% range and even 80% was about average on many fights, This way players can check their own WWS and see if they are getting sufficient use from the proc I know its been brought up before, but you simply can not assume 100% proc rate. should be easily enough to calculate since if you assume 80% proc rate just add 20 mana cost to the current assumed 2pc t5 mana cost.
Also replacing two pieces of t6 for t5 IS going to be a drop of stats not using t6 helm is about 27 healing ( and - 4 mp/5) difference, shoulders is 9 healing 8 mp/5, and gloves is about 20 healing difference , and chest is 14 healing 8 mp/5( I assumed 11/2 gems in blue sockets, and I ignored the 1-2 spirirt differences), so while pretty marginal I think the two pc t5 calculations should model the loss of 35-45 healing, and maybe the +/- 4mp5
Well circle of healing is much better in 5 and 10 man instances, where multiple people who take damage are much more likely to be in the same group. The time you spec Divine Spirit is for High King through Kael'thas. Once you fight Naj'entus, or at the very least Gurtogg, Circle of Healing becomes worth it in 25 man raids.
I've found CoH to be extremely helpful on select fights at the SSC/TK level on fights like Karathress, Tidewalker, and VR, where there is either predictable raidwide damage or the melee group is getting consistently hit. Not to mention, if you already have a priest with imp DS in the raid, why not go 4x into holy? You don't bring anything new to the raid by bringing a second imp ds.
A question about heal threat. The common statement about healing threat is that it is evenly divided among all mobs who have you (the healer) on their threat list. Is that accurate, or is heal threat divided among all mobs who have the person healed on their hate list? When you cast a heal on someone, you are immediately added to the hate lists of any mob who is aware of the healee. But the converse is not true, so there are cases where the healer hate list will different from the person being healed.
I think I know what your asking and I think it's a good quesiton.
Tank A is fighting Mob 1.
Tank B is fighting Mob 2.
Assuming I am on both mobs hate list from healing Tank A and B. If I heal Tank B, would my threat increase on Mob 1? As Tank B is not on Mob 1's hate list.
While I'm not sure, It *seems* like you generate healing aggro on all mobs that have YOU on their aggro list, and you get on a mob's aggro list when you heal someone on its aggro list. Can anyone verify if this is true?
a very quick test shows that all heals even those on players not on the other mob's threat list generate threat for you on all mobs.
the test consisted of 1 player and 1 mob aggrod by proximity, A second player roughly 25-30 yards from player 1aggro'd a second mob by hitting it with a stick. I renew'd player 1 but had it clicked off before doing any healing. I did not pull aggro. I was put in combat. I then healed player B and pulled aggro on both mobs simultaneously.
Not exactly the most scientific or exhaustive testing on the subject, but seems pretty cut and dry to me.
a very quick test shows that all heals even those on players not on the other mob's threat list generate threat for you on all mobs.
the test consisted of 1 player and 1 mob aggrod by proximity, A second player roughly 25-30 yards from player 1aggro'd a second mob by hitting it with a stick. I renew'd player 1 but had it clicked off before doing any healing. I did not pull aggro. I was put in combat. I then healed player B and pulled aggro on both mobs simultaneously.
Not exactly the most scientific or exhaustive testing on the subject, but seems pretty cut and dry to me.
Seems like a pretty definitive test. Thanks for the responses!
I'm the proverbial "first priest in the raid" who duly took IDS. Is it normal for the CoH priests to be outhealing me by a LARGE margin in TK/SSC, when I'm better geared? I never had trouble topping healing done in KZ/Gruul's, but now it seems no matter what I do I'm dead last among the healers. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, if anything.
I'm the proverbial "first priest in the raid" who duly took IDS. Is it normal for the CoH priests to be outhealing me by a LARGE margin in TK/SSC, when I'm better geared? I never had trouble topping healing done in KZ/Gruul's, but now it seems no matter what I do I'm dead last among the healers. I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, if anything.
What do you mean by "being outhealed"? Healing meters are evil, healing meters will decieve you, healing meters will eat your soul.
How many healers do you have in raid?
What are you doing normally in raid (=your healing assigment(s))?
What are the other priests (CoH) doing normally in the raid?
Do you have to hold back with your healing (lots of it goes to waste or overheal)?
Do you have problems with mana?
Those being said/asked, with ~2k +healing Circle of Healing heals ~950hp/person hit = 4750hp with an instant spell (assuming no overheal + 5 persons hit, won't happen often). Spamming CoH sure makes you top the meters when there are lots of AoE going around, but as you may have seen from my earlier comments, topping the meters does in no way mean that you are a superior healer.
I'm not talking about AoE fights really, it only makes sense that an AoE heal would do better in an AoE fight. I'm talking about every fight, including those where CoH itself is pretty useless due to positioning.
The assignments vary, but generally I get put on MT healing and the other priests are on raid healing. I do have to hold back and I'm not going OOM, I'm cancelling a LOT due to others getting to the target first.
We've been running with 7-8 healers and I really think it's too many. I've suggested that but been shot down by the folks who do the raid approvals. If I'm barely doing anything, I don't get why they don't want to cut a healer and bring another DPS. It's not fun to feel like a IDS buff bot with no other purpose.
How am I supposed to gauge my own performance if not WWS? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really don't know how else to gauge what is happening.
generally I get put on MT healing and the other priests are on raid healing
Raid healing assigments are almost always more +healing in meters, than MT healing.
How am I supposed to gauge my own performance if not WWS? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really don't know how else to gauge what is happening.
Healing meter OR WWS is in NO way a good tool to gauge your performance. And healing meters can't even be compared to damage meters.
I'll give you an example. Here is a picture to illustrate 4th boss of Mount Hyjal: http://www.bosskillers.com/pix/bbgui...-Positions.jpg
We use a tactic similiar to this. Az'galor is tanked away from Thrall and majority of raid is on him. However, a tank, some melee and 1 healer is assigned far, far away (over 50 to 60 yards away from "main raid") to take care of doomguards that are being summoned. Because of the damage doomguards do, you need AT LEAST one healer there. However, you won't ever top healing meters by being "doomguard healer", since the damage doomguards do is limited.
Doomguard tank healer kept everyone in his range alive trough the whole fight, but he was last healer on WWS/healing meters. Did the doomguard healer do a bad job because he was last on meters?
Its not as apparent during "normal encounters". Only thing you can measure your healing by is, "did you keep your assigned targets alive, no matter what"? Oh, you did? Good job. Just remember, as long as you can't heal a pull of at least 10 trash packs and 3 raid bosses simultaneously you still have room of improvement. You can always heal better
I tend to agree. Meters are just a tool. Healing assignments are so radically different. Put someone in the middle on Vashj vs. down on the platforms and the person up top had better obliterate the platform person on healing done.
I actually healed Leotheras the other day. We had a druid tanking the demon form. I tried cast canceling and didn't like it. Fact was the other two healers had him at 95% the vast majority of the time until he took debuffs and pretty much dropped like a stone. (Pally and druid were also on him). So I switched to spamming GH3 and letting it land every time. Leotheras is not mana taxing and I didn't care that the majority of heals landed for 1000s of overheal. Why? Because if I canceled at 2.4s and >>then<< the spike came in, the tank was screwed. If I happened to land it on the spike, the tri-healer work kept him alive just fine.
Had I flashed, I'd have done better on the meters than either strat. But based on what went on, flashing felt like a big loser at least that particular day with that particular tank.
Its not as apparent during "normal encounters". Only thing you can measure your healing by is, "did you keep your assigned targets alive, no matter what"? Oh, you did? Good job.
Right. First priority is to do your assigned job as healer. As soon as you are able to do that, however, a good heal meter helps you in being more effective as a healer. If you use it to compare yourself to others with a similar heal task, and do that repeatedly, you may find potential for improvement. Which heal spells and of which rank is the other healer using? What about dispells? Which targets did the other healer heal beside the assigned one(s)? Could I do that, too?
Sure, if someone uses heal statistics like "most effective heal=best healer", that's plain stupid. Used as a tool to become a better healer yourself, that's a different story, I think. It sure worked for me.
Originally Posted by Vihermaali
Just remember, as long as you can't heal a pull of at least 10 trash packs and 3 raid bosses simultaneously you still have room of improvement. You can always heal better
Right. First priority is to do your assigned job as healer. As soon as you are able to do that, however, a good heal meter helps you in being more effective as a healer. If you use it to compare yourself to others with a similar heal task, and do that repeatedly, you may find potential for improvement. Which heal spells and of which rank is the other healer using? What about dispells? Which targets did the other healer heal beside the assigned one(s)? Could I do that, too?
Sure, if someone uses heal statistics like "most effective heal=best healer", that's plain stupid. Used as a tool to become a better healer yourself, that's a different story, I think. It sure worked for me.
So why condemn healmeters entirely?
Don't get me wrong. I don't condemn healmeters entirely. I just wanted to emphasize that healing meters is NOT a ranking tool. It can be useful for improving own effectiveness (what spells you use, how much do you hit for on avarage, etc on wws for example), but its not something you should be copy-pasting in guild/raid chat and saying "look mom, I'm first!".
While healingmeters may have its uses, it is not a ranking tool and should not be used as one. New people, or people who played dps classes, may have hard time understanding this
I agree with keeping your eyes off the heal meters. Mostly becuase, especially in the priests view of things, the numbers tend to be wrong. I use PoM a lot, mostly because of the threat it puts on the tank (more room for dps to hit since my guild has threat problems from dps not taking threat reduction talents) and its cheap and usually manages to hit everyone (some people not so good with running out of shadow nova/ignoring it if not enfeebled).
PoM screws the heal meters over a lot, primarily because it doesn't count as your healing (lower numbers for your heals) and it also counts for overhealing on whoever gets healed. They get the overheal, not you (though it's not really a problem with PoM since they're taking the dmg before the healing procs).
The only real questions I have are about the threat mechanics of those heals. When everyone says that healing is 50% threat of the heal, is that before Silent Resolve or after, and is SR really that important, I've been thinking of respeccing out of it for a few months now, and just haven't had the memory to get to it. The PoM question there is though, I realise you'd get the "I cast a spell" agro but where does the threat modifications on the healing agro come from. Does the bsae threat of the heal get modified by your own threat reduction or does the tanks extra threat genereated while in defensive stance bring the threat from the heal up to much larger numbers?
Generally, as I've seen said earlier in the thread, the only problem is the first 10 seconds of the fight for healing agro, after that there should be no problem, especially since the healing should be spread out over all your healers. I was also wondering if anyone has links to threads where healing agro is more explained, because to my understanding the more mobs you're enganged with the better because you generate a base threat, and then it's split up between all people that have you on their list. This seems a bit strange and I'd like to understand more of it. It's not a problem right now with my guild (we're just starting on Maulgar, starting into the game late) but I do see potential problems when we get to SSC with places that have aggro wipe situations. See: Hydross transitions. If there were similar threat concept for PW: S I'd be interested. Since I'm considering picking up imp shield instead of SR to grab more in mental agility. Not sure how much that will effect the healing.
Also, copmletely unbuffed I have 125 mp5 while casting (342 OFSR) and 1554 +healing. I'm just wondering if that's good for Kara gear? Should I be grabbing more enchants? I know there's a few more slots I've got to gem up, but what's the potention for pre-Gruul's. I do MH for the guild, but healing isn't the problem, I just want to see my gheal 7 hit someone for 5k flat on a regular basis.
Prayer of Mending places the healing threat on the person healed not the caster. Not sure if it's down modified by your silent resolve, but the difference would be minimal and I'd doubt it a lot anyway.
Your stats are fine Jaestas. You should enchant every decent piece of gear you have with the best reasonable enchant for that slot, however, so I'm not really sure I get the question. You should have green gems in every socket minimum and replace them with blue gems on everything you can afford, especially on your best pieces and the ones you'll likely keep the longest.
PoM screws the heal meters over a lot, primarily because it doesn't count as your healing (lower numbers for your heals) and it also counts for overhealing on whoever gets healed. They get the overheal, not you (though it's not really a problem with PoM since they're taking the dmg before the healing procs).
You can use Recount if that bothers you. Recount is able to add the amount healed by your PoM to your total heal. I'm not sure, but I think it does this by looking for how much the person who got the PoM first was healed. This will almost always be different from the amount healed by another person's PoM. After each jump, it will know the source by looking at the amount healed (raw heal).
You can use Recount if that bothers you. Recount is able to add the amount healed by your PoM to your total heal. I'm not sure, but I think it does this by looking for how much the person who got the PoM first was healed. This will almost always be different from the amount healed by another person's PoM. After each jump, it will know the source by looking at the amount healed (raw heal).
I see quite some potential for bugs/confusion here. Just thinking of how many healing-amplifiers (Warlock-armor, Illidan-mace-buff, etc....) and -reductions (Carrion Swarm, MS, etc...) there are in game, I wonder if recount is really accurate on PoM.
12/11/07, 1:26 PM
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