[Soul-Strider Boots] primary advantage is the sockets being nice ( hello red socket) so you don't give up anything to get all the free itemization value. But even so the stamina difference is quite large and the healing difference is marginal, and for mana regen Long road would be better still. Personally if I wanted more + healing I'd just put two spinels in Divine Light, and if I wanted regen ( and was a tailor) I'd wear long road. That said there's nothing truly wrong with having both Divine light and Soul-strider's for the handful of fights where you wouldn't want a couple hundred more hp.
Furthermore you didn't account for the difference in spirit in the final + healing totals, which widens the gap for Soul Strider's a bit with your gem choices.
As for Dark Mending its quite solid, with BT gems it'd be better than any staff from the t5 level, but ultimately it can't really compete with [Apostle of Argus]. If socketed with + 66 healing it'd still lose on healing, and if socketed in a balanced way would be significantly short on healing and mana regen.
And back to the topic of Crystal Spire, I'm looking through the WWS parses for our resto shaman and paladin with karabor and it seems like the karabor proc shows up as "heal"
Spire Procs over a given night At first glance seems the Shaman got 3-5 times as many procs as the Paladin but if you look at the individual boss attempts it can go either way. For example the paladin had many procs on solarian ( since he was reacting to AM), and VR obviously favors the shaman healing the melee. All in all although this is the only parse I have with both of them together the shaman consistently gets more procs and overall its a fairly small gain ( the total number of procs is skewed because the paladin tanks hyjal trash)
Paladin with Spire on Council This parse shows that raid healing on council is a gold mine for spire procs even when using 2.5 casted spells, and is a larger sample so you can also see that karabor is affected by the holy crit of the paladin. While the "heal" affect was only 1% of his healing done it proc'd on nearly 10% of his casts.
Neither of those parses help you determine truly how much use a Holy priest ( iDS or CoH spec) will get out of Karabor but at least its something to compare to if a priest offers up some WWS logs.
Edit: Miscalculated what percentage of his spells proc'd heal since crits don't show as hits.
I have been working on a holy priest healing spreadsheet for some time now. Due to not being able to create a thread without having to post ten times (and I don't want to bore you with stupid comments) I'll simply post it here.
This spreadsheet does not try to tell you how to heal but to calculate the amount you will be able to raw heal (overhealing is beyond the scope of this spreadsheet) for given encounter parameters (time of fight, style of healing, etc.). Stat values are estimated to allow gear, enchant and gem comparisons (Gear and GemsEnchants sheets).
For a short introduction how to use it refer the Info sheet. Have fun using the spreadsheet, you'll hopefully find it useful in some way.
Beware:
To be able to use the VB Macros you might have to lower Excel security.
Values of many usable items and items able to proc have been estimated. These estimates are mostly backed up by known formulae and data but some might just have been crudely estimated due to lack of data (or simple to little time I put into thinking about exact calculations).
This spreadsheet is not locked in any way. If you want to review formulae you are welcome to do so. This spreadsheet was never intended to get as extensive as it is now, therefore it is lacking of internal structure. Don't blame me if you can't figure out what I was thinking when creating some parts of the spreadsheet.
There is a lot of very good information in this thread. I did have a question however that I hadn't seen listed or really mentioned in any detail. I'm my guild's token impDS priest and I'm consistantly lower side for overall healing in the raid (( normally 4th or 5th with 7, sometimes 8 healers )). Our typical healing setup is:
3 - priest (( 1 impDS, 2 CoH ))
3 - Paly
1 - Druid
1 - Shaman (( normally isn't there but he's the 8th healer ))
I've noticed that even the lesser geared CoH priest tends to be right below me or at times a tad above me on our WWS. People have been starting to question my healing and the only excuse I can come back with is the fact I don't have CoH. I do know that I am oldschool (( mentality that overheal = useless heal )) and I do cancel more than I probably should be letting heals land, but provided I break that habit and let more heals drop, on average what should the difference in healing done be when comparing an impDS priest and a CoH priest side by side?
on average what should the difference in healing done be when comparing an impDS priest and a CoH priest side by side?
With side by side I assume you mean "identical gear and same assigment with 0% overlapping of each other".
What instances are you raiding? Circle of Healing is a wonderful AoE heal, but it's one of those that get better the further you get in raiding content. You can't expect a CoH priest to beat others everywhere. Especially if there is not much AoE damage.
Besides the CoH spell itself, in your situation only difference between those two is 2 points in empowered healing. Thats really minor, meaning if the fights are not good for CoH use, spec is not really a factor when comparing healing done between you two.
With side by side I assume you mean "identical gear and same assigment with 0% overlapping of each other".
What instances are you raiding? Circle of Healing is a wonderful AoE heal, but it's one of those that get better the further you get in raiding content. You can't expect a CoH priest to beat others everywhere. Especially if there is not much AoE damage.
Besides the CoH spell itself, in your situation only difference between those two is 2 points in empowered healing. Thats really minor, meaning if the fights are not good for CoH use, spec is not really a factor when comparing healing done between you two.
Sorry, I guess that would've been useful informaiton
Anyway, there's honestly a 300ish +healing difference between each of the 3 priests (( I'm in the middle with mid 1800ish raid buffed )). We're currently progressing 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK.
But overall, yeah I was wondering if with the same gear, just different spec how would the two fair side by side. I can kind of gauge the gear difference accordingly I'd think.
I do know that I am oldschool (( mentality that overheal = useless heal )) and I do cancel more than I probably should be letting heals land.
That's very probably the reason why your effective healing shows up as lower, or maybe because you are too shy to use flash heal where useful. An occasional flash heal thrown to some raidmember can be a very useful thing. Sure, it may not be your assigned role, but if it's safe for you to do so, why not? Have a look at a WWS parse or Recount to see what the other's are doing.
As for canceling: instead of just canceling less, you might also consider downranking one more rank and then letting more heals land.
Originally Posted by termoil
but provided I break that habit and let more heals drop, on average what should the difference in healing done be when comparing an impDS priest and a CoH priest side by side?
In fights where you can't use CoH the difference is the two points more in Empowered Healing, which is a difference that might show up, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to even discuss a few percentage points in difference between effective heal totals in a raid. That would be ridiculous.
If you can use CoH effectively in an encounter, the differences can be staggering.
As for healers per se: we used to run Gruul with 4 holy priests. 2 ImpDS, 2 CoH, very comparable equipment. No CoH use there. I always showed up on top once I learned avoiding shatter deaths (g), ImpDS priest next, heals about 10% less, then with some distance the other two. So, what's the reason? The better ImpDS priest is more "old style". On Gruul, I'd say, my way is better, because it's less risky. On some other encounters where my mana is always stretched, the "Old style priest" is in my personal opinion better, although it doesn't show up on the healmeters. There, I'm the one who's healing is risky: no mana left at the end for a real emergency.
So: before you entirely discard "old style" healing, I'd say carefully consider if letting more heals land really benefits the raid. If it does, do it. If not, don't.
That's very probably the reason why your effective healing shows up as lower, or maybe because you are too shy to use flash heal where useful. An occasional flash heal thrown to some raidmember can be a very useful thing. Sure, it may not be your assigned role, but if it's safe for you to do so, why not? Have a look at a WWS parse or Recount to see what the other's are doing.
As for canceling: instead of just canceling less, you might also consider downranking one more rank and then letting more heals land.
In fights where you can't use CoH the difference is the two points more in Empowered Healing, which is a difference that might show up, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to even discuss a few percentage points in difference between effective heal totals in a raid. That would be ridiculous.
If you can use CoH effectively in an encounter, the differences can be staggering.
As for healers per se: we used to run Gruul with 4 holy priests. 2 ImpDS, 2 CoH, very comparable equipment. No CoH use there. I always showed up on top once I learned avoiding shatter deaths (g), ImpDS priest next, heals about 10% less, then with some distance the other two. So, what's the reason? The better ImpDS priest is more "old style". On Gruul, I'd say, my way is better, because it's less risky. On some other encounters where my mana is always stretched, the "Old style priest" is in my personal opinion better, although it doesn't show up on the healmeters. There, I'm the one who's healing is risky: no mana left at the end for a real emergency.
So: before you entirely discard "old style" healing, I'd say carefully consider if letting more heals land really benefits the raid. If it does, do it. If not, don't.
We had some horrific Tidewalker attempts this night so the only useful info would probably be fathomlord, so it's probably not the best comparison. Here's another WWS file for SSC: http://wowwebstats.com/oem5e6ditfks3
This one's somewhat old but we spent most of our time playing in TK in Dec so I thought seeing similar fights would be the best option. If you compare the 3 healing priests, I pretty much use gheal2 (( and max when needed )) , flash heal, prayer of mending and renews, while the mainstay of the other two seems to be gheal1 and CoH.
Ok, I took a little break and looked at the second SSC log. From the logs, this looks reasonable to me for alle 3 healing priests.
Overall, Kacerin heals roughly 10% more. This is not a lot. On the other hand, 53 decurses instead of 17 is definitely in your favor. For the GcD and mana of a dispell you could also have thrown a flash heal or a renew around. If you add that, there's just 5% left. Even with the same healing role, 5% difference in healing is more or less random.
As for individual fights:
If you look at the Fathom-Guard fight, Kacerin almost exlusively heals a tank with some binding heals for survival. It's no wonder a good priest can dish out lots of effective healing in such a situation. You, on the other hand, seem to be assigned to top off three different tanks. That's quite a different role, and one where you lose time switching targets. Even if you use Grid+Clique, you will lose some time, and that just accumulates over the fight. Lastly, a pure MT healer can learn to watch the tank's fight very closely and adapt the heals a bit to the swing timer. You won't be able to do that if you have multiple assigned targets.
If you are really worried: if the topic of total effective healing comes up again, ask your raid leader to switch healing roles between you and Kacerin for two runs. Then look at the numbers again.
P.S.: I do not think you or your fellow raid members should question your healing based on the position on the heal meter. If your assigned targets die or you run out of mana, now that would be a reason to look what you could improve. In our Zul'Aman runs, I run with a paladin (like me T4+ equipped) and a tree druid (BT/Hyjal equipped). If I play reasonable, I'am overall about 10% behind the druid and about 30% before the paladin. If I want to tease the druid a bit, I can top him on the healmeter. This however comes at the price of risk. If I heal too many targets during Malacrass and Zul'Jin I may effectively wipe the raid because I may not have enough mana left if there's an unexpected DD death. So should I play tease and make sure I am on top of the healing statistics? Surely not.
Termoil, I picked your Hydross kill WWS to look at (the other bosses are rather more assignment-sensitive).
My thoughts to your healing priests in general:
- PoM is hardly used. Here's a WWS log of one of our first Hydross kills for comparison: frost and nature tanks got healed for ~45k each by PoM, and that's just with 2 healing priests around. Bouncing PoM off your tanks has aggro balance benefits too. PoM abuse = happier raids.
- Flash Heal is somewhat over-used: try to leave the topping people off to Chain Heals and CoHs. Sure, sometimes you are compelled to PWS+Flash+PoM to try prevent a tank death or somesuch. And sometimes it's your job because you're alone assigned to raid healing. But remember that you have a lot more tricks up your sleeve than the paladins, so don't limit yourself to being a "single-heal, single-target" healer.
- Renew seems under-used somewhat: personally I prefer to have my renew always ticking on the people tanking the heavy hitters - just for that possibility of a GCD-free tick helping to bring them out of danger zone after a big damage spike. Yes, statistically it won't be as efficient as Lifebloom - but it's still a lot more effective than nothing at all
On the subject of cancelling/letting heals land: if you're specced into Inspiration, that's a big incentive to let your heal land if in doubt - it might crit and save the tank healers (including yourself) a fair bit of mana for the next 15 seconds.
I'd expect a CoH-specced priest to beat you (and most other healing classes/specs for that matter) by quite some margin, given similar assignments/circumstances. Instant AoE heal, end of story
So I wouldn't worry too much about competing with CoH - but do start to worry if you lag behind the paladins to any significant degree (take your PoM contribution into account to level the playing field here though).
On the subject of cancelling/letting heals land: if you're specced into Inspiration, that's a big incentive to let your heal land if in doubt - it might crit and save the tank healers (including yourself) a fair bit of mana for the next 15 seconds.
Just 2 quick notes to this. Firstly, I´d always let the heal land if I was in doubt, no matter whether I have Inspiration or not. If I am in doubt and think the tank might die/get very low then I can´t see any reason to cancel the heal.
Secondly, Inspiration won´t do anything on Hydross. Sorry if it sounds a bit over-accurate, but I just wanted to say this to clarify, for people who don´t so much insight might also read this and get some false information.
Great advise guys. Thank you for taking the time to reply. It sounds like if I just let those top off heals land more often even if it is mostly overheal I'll probably be more represented in overall healing. I will have to work on that. Soon as I get the 2pc T5 bonus I'm sure I'll be more about those heals and it'll help since I'll get mana back. Because I use gheal2, do you think I should move go gheal1 instead or should I wait until I break the 2k +healing mark to do that?
I'm going to also work on trying to get more agressive in my Prayer of Mending again. I used to use it all the time, but I got worried about these stupid reports and how it doesn't register for my own numbers that I think it caused me to be less about it and more about direct healing. I really hate these reports.
I kind of don't think it matters much. And I realized this the otherday.
Unlike DPSers who can theorethically put out an infinite amount of DPS, healers can only put out a finite amount of healing. We can only heal damage taken. It could just be that the other healers are faster than you. CoH is faster than Flash Heal. Yeah sure, same GCD, but CoH heals first, then you get your GCD, Flash Heal is a GCD then a heal.
I would 100% expect a CoH priest to beat a iDS priest anyday. I do not think the 2/5 EH is non-trivial either. That adds what? an extra 4% of your +heal to Flash Heal and 8% to Greater Heal? 8% of 2k = 160. On top of that, I believe you stated the CoH priest had another 100-300 more +heal on you? or somewhere in that range.
While others on this thread think that is insignificant, I sure don't.
You may also want to consider reaction speed and latency. All it takes is another 100 ms of latency, and you will overheal someone else's heal more often than not, assuming identical reaction speeds.
Part of this is becoming *very* comfortable as a healer, and starting to predict damage incoming, and actually start a heal *before* the person takes damage. I can do this reasonably effectively in Hyjal and parts of BT now, simply because I know the fights (and trash) quite well, and I have my screen set up in such a way as to be able to see the mobs clearly. If you see a mob peel off the pack in Hyjal, target, select its target, and queue up a heal. If the tanks don't get it back before it reaches the warlock/shadow priest/hunter, they're going to need a heal, and I'm usually the first one to it.
Also, you can learn that if someone takes damage in a raid setting, they are *more* likely to take another hit 2.0-2.5 seconds later than someone else is. If you just overhealed them, queue up another heal and see if they need it. If they do, you just landed a beautifully executed non-overheal top-up, and then can move on.
Once you've done this for a while, it's completely second nature, and you stop thinking about it. Then you really get in the groove and start cranking out the healing. And while meters don't matter, it's nice to see yourself in top-3 as a priest, knowing that none of your PW:S or PoM counted. Put those in, and it rapidly skyrockets to competing for 1st in effective healing.
Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein
I do not think the 2/5 EH is non-trivial either. That adds what? an extra 4% of your +heal to Flash Heal and 8% to Greater Heal? 8% of 2k = 160. On top of that, I believe you stated the CoH priest had another 100-300 more +heal on you? or somewhere in that range.
While others on this thread think that is insignificant, I sure don't.
If you factor in that he will run with around 40% overheal on Greater Heal, that removes - at least - the first 40% of the bonus regarding the amount of effective heal. Considering that there's also Renew, PoM and Binding Heal which don't profit from Empowered Healing at all, the total benefit over the duration of a raid should not be more than 3% of the total effective healing.
Yeah, I've got healing fundimentals down pretty good, but they are definately good points to bring up. It's primarily the comparison between spec's and if there was really anything that I could do to really be competative against people with CoH. My personal opinion has been that because they have an instant AOE heal I'm already behind. By the sounds of it, it seems like most of the people that have responded agree, but I'm thinking that most of you don't think that it should matter as much as I think it might, which is probably true. Sounds like a comparison DPS wise with equal geared/skilled mages, one being fire and another being frost. Fire "should" do more damage than frost, however the frost mage can/should give the fire mage a good run for his money. I just have to figure out what I can do to lessen the gap, if anything, in my own playing which seems like the concensus is to allow more heals to land and not cancel so many.
Hey guys- I just spec'd CoH, and I'm loving the versatility. My main question is whether the Eye of Gruul is worth it. The way I'm seeing it- I have quite a lot of spirit stacked, so if the [Eye of Gruul] has an increased chance to proc from Circle spam, and can completely negate the cost of the next Circle Cast, couldn't I use it like a clearcasting proc, and avoid the 5sr?
I'm thinking that, as soon as I see the proc I should
1) pop my Earring of Soulful Meditation and equip my Spirit staff
2) Circle of Healing to absorb the buff
3) stay out of 5sr as long as possible, possibly using Inner Focus to stay in longer.
But even without the 5sr dancing, has anyone modeled what kind of mana savings I can expect with the Eye of Gruul for Circle Spam? Can it compare with the Fel Reaver Piston, in terms of mana regen?
Given that under ideal conditions, assuming perfect grouping, I get a 10% Eye of Gruul proc on every CoH, then in true "spam" conditions, I can cast 10 Circles of Healing in 15 seconds, and get the 11th proc in 16.5 (i know this is a primitive way to model this, but i'm not good at math). In this condition, even if I've reduced the cost of CoH to 405 with mental agility, this trinket saves me 405 mana over that 16.5 second period, or 123 mp/5. Again, this is completely ignoring any funky 5sr dancing and Inner Focus cheesiness.
Is my math wrong here, or is this just the most amazing trinket you could have for circle spam?
But even without the 5sr dancing, has anyone modeled what kind of mana savings I can expect with the Eye of Gruul for Circle Spam? Can it compare with the Fel Reaver Piston, in terms of mana regen?
Yeah I was looking at the thread, but I didn't find any numbers. Also the thread is a little confusing because it tries to cater to all four healing classes, which is sometimes unproductive.
Excerpt:
"Follow up: Tested the trinket (eye of gruul) in a Gurtogg fight where I spammed CoH for 6 minutes. Proc'ed 9x, so about 50 mp5. Definitely will continue using it on coh heavy fights."
Well, tonight was the first raid after our talks here, and this is the WWS: Wow Web Stats
I was up every fight entirely but 1, and that 1 fight I died early. I look at every attempt (( including overall )) and I sucked serious poop. The fact that the 2 CoH priests left me in the dust is very disheartening. I'm assuming TK is very CoH friendly. I really don't know what else I could've done differently.
Well considering you only did two bosses as far as I can see, one of which was VR, this really isn't surprising. A priest using CoH on the melee during VR's pounding attack will do staggering amounts of effective healing. For example, I see that almost 80% of Finagle's effective healing on your VR kill was from CoH.
On the Alar attempts (ignoring the kill as I take it that was the fight you died early) you are generally within 1 - 3% effective healing of the other priests which seems perfectly reasonable - variation on that scale could be due to latency, who died first, who was dropping a big heal at the moment the tank took spike damage, slight differences in gear quality etc etc.
TK trash is extremely friendly to CoH. Raid-wide aoe damage and tight narrow hallways. CoH heaven.
Heh, when we were still learning TK I use to be an aggro magnet with CoH in there.
You can however beat CoH priests by playing smarter and using your strengths.
As the poster one-two posts above pointed out, you lack CoH, and the 4%/8% bonus to FH/GH, your Renew, Prayer of Mending, Prayer of Healing and Binding Heal however are all the same.
Many times CoH will be superior to PoH in that its instant, but the range on PoH and Inner Focus can help it have an edge if your group is fragmented far enough.
As a poster several pages back pointed out, using Renew can work as a substitute to CoH, if you renew people you know will take periodic damage. Case and Point, you should absolutely have 9-10 renews up on VR. Saving one GCD for a PoM and perhaps an emergency Flash Heal/Power Word: Shield.
I really don't know what else I could've done differently.
No offence intended: I used to say exactly that a few months ago (except it was in German). It's always wrong, there are always - at least - little things one could have done better, you just didn't have the time, patience, and confidence to identify them. Now as I reread this, it sounds a little patronizing - it's not meant to be, it really helped me a lot to get rid of that way of thinking.
Take Constantinus' advice, it's a very good one. As a benchmark: can you replay the boss fights in your mind? In your mental replay, do you "see" what the raid does? If you can't, try to achieve that.
And be patient: better priest performance is a sum of a little here and a little there. If you improved one small thing during a raid evening while still doing your primary job, you are making good progress. Even if it sounds stupid: reread priest playstyle guides from time to time (like the first post in this thread), you may see things in a different light with more experience and progression. Especially for the suggestions in this thread's summary post: think carefully about each of them: when and how could you use them? If you are a person that thinks best while discussing with others: get a fellow priest, perhaps from another raid for a few TeamSpeak/Ventrilo discussions.
As for the logs:
VoidReaver is the prime example for CoH utility in TK. As for Al'ar, I don't know the fight personally. What I do see in the logs however, is that you die relatively often. If Kacerin has an uptime of 100% in a failed try, and you end up with 77%, what do you expect to see? Just look at the number of Greater Heals you two perform.
I am having a very hard time valuing Spirit vs. Raw Healing at the moment.
I'm a fully tier 4/crafted priest at the moment, and I both raid and do PVP seriously. I switch back and forth from Holy to Disc. I have Light's Justice, with the 81 healing enchant, giving it 463 healing. But I also recently just got my season 3 Gladiator's Salvation(545 healing), which I thought was a solid PVE upgrade, but I'm just not sure anymore.
I'm sitting at around 2.1k healing unbuffed, while Holy specced, with the Vengeful Gladiator's Salvation, but I'm losing a whole 20 spirit. It doesn't account for a lot of mana regen inside 5s, but out of 5s the difference is pretty big, like about 14 or so mana more from the Spirit. I just basically have no idea whether or not 82 healing is better than 20 spirit for me. It seems that 2k healing unbuffed is enough, and that the more mana regen I can get the better, but I probably only spend 20-25% of my time outside of 5seconds. That's just me guessing though, have not parsed, nor would I know how.
I understand the valuating of 8 +heal to be about equal to 1 mp/5. But how about for Spirit, assuming Imp DS and 5/5 Spiritual Guidance. I'm completley lost and would take any advice.
You can get a mod like RegenFu that monitors your percentage of time spent inside the 5 second rule for each fight. Taking an average of this will let you calculate a rough spirit -> mp5 conversion from the formulae or tables in this thread. For me, 3 spirit is roughly equal to 1 mp5. Assuming Imp. DS, Spiritual Guidance and BoK, that's also 1.155 +healing (3*1.1*0.35). If you have some mp5 to +healing correlation for itemisation purposes then comparisons should be relatively easy.
I personally don't like doing this, I'm not convinced that I can draw an accurate correlation between mp5 and +healing so I gem and itemise depending on the current content I'm tackling and how taxing it is on my mana.
There are some obvious trade-offs worth taking. I think in your case even if you wanted more mana regen the 82 healing is so much "better" than 20 spirit, at least in itemisation points (considering the stats are comparably useful to you) that you'd be silly not to take the S3 mace. Isn't that why you have the 81 healing enchant over 20 spirit? Theoretically if you really wanted the spirit you could replace 3 of your Teardrop Living Rubies (54 +healing) with 3 Lustrous Stars of Elune (24 spirit), a much better trade-off.
01/06/08, 4:08 PM
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