galzohar

The "it depends on the fight" and "it depends on your playstyle" do not apply when it comes to answering the question of "Do you prefer 11 healing OR 2 mp5??" If you can't answer that then you can probably just toss whatever gems into whatever gear and won't feel the difference, but you can't claim that what you're doing is anywhere near optimal. If you can answer this, you should never be socketing 11 heal 2 mp5 gems aside from meeting socket bonuses.

Fact is that for a fight, either 11 heal or 2 mp5 have to be better. It's plain logic. Unless a=b (which is a very unrealistic exception - it's just as likely as balancing a needle on its tip, in fact it's even less likely) it just has to be that either a>b or b>a.

I don't see how one could ever claim you would use 11 heal 2 mp5 over 4 mp5, but not use 22 heal over 11 heal 2 mp5 (if you had the option and no socket bonuses, of course). And I don't see how one could claim he would use 11 heal 2 mp5 over 22 healing but not use 4 mp5 (again given same conditions). You're basically saying "-11 healing +2 mp5 is a good tradeoff" and "+11 healing -2 mp5 is a good tradeoff" at the same time. Logically these 2 phrases can't be true at the same time.

As for the 5 int 2 mp5, I don't see how you could ever consider that gem except for yellow socket bonuses and even then only if you think 2 mp5 > 11 healing. If you would use 5 int 2 mp5 over 4 mp5 and would use 11 heal 2 mp5 over 22 heal, that logically means you would use 10 int in all sockets over anything, as you think 5 int > 2 mp5 > 11 healing. I don't think you really mean this.

Point is, there simply has to be a certain stat tradeoff that's more worthwhile than the other. 2 opposites cannot be true at the same time, and that directly applies to gem choices.

Once you know what gem you think is best you can actually consider what to do with socket bonuses - say if you think 22 healing is best, and there's a good enough blue or yellow socket bonus, you could socket 11 heal 2 mp5 or 11 heal 5 int in it and be good. But if you're socketing one of those gems in a red socket at the same time you're simply contradicting yourself and making absolutely no sense. When you make gemming suggestions please avoid contradicting yourself, it helps your arguments look more valid

 

Irise

You are incorrect because you are assuming that all fights require the same ratio of healing and regen. For something like RoS and BB you want to push your +healing as high as possible while on Mother and Illidan you want the opposite. Hence you can either gem for a balanced approach or you can gem for +healing and use a resto flask or major mageblood for the regen fights.

This debate about which is the best gem is completely asinine because the answer is subjective in the extreme (at least for priests). It depends on your OFSR regen %, socket bonus, meta gem preference, healing role in a raid, group composition, encounter and not to mention your own personal healing style.

Edit: Not to mention that "tradeoff' is a function of current stats as well. So you might start off with +11heal 2mp5 or 4mp5 gems and socket some other gear with +22healing.
A crude analogy but apt analogy to this is whether tanks should go for avoidance or stamina. A tank with 40k HP but 0 avoidance will die because his healer will go OOM, while a tank with 15k HP but 90% avoidance can be insta-gibbed. Therefore, tanks gear for a more balanced approach.

 

Vihermaali

I need both regen and +healing at same time. I want both. If I use +22healing I miss out on 2mp5, if I use 4mp5 I miss out on +11 healing. So I take balanced stats, both +healing AND regen: +11healing & +2mp5.

a=b in my opinion, in sense that I don't have enough regen OR +healing.

Make any sense?

 

galzohar

Not really. You're still giving up on 11 healing in favor of 2 mp5 all at the same time giving up on 2 mp5 for 11 healing.

Even if you average your stat values over different fights you still won't reach equivalence of 2 mp5 and 11 healing. It just becomes a "do you prefer find +11 healing -2 mp5 (on all fights bloodboil included) a good tradeoff or not?" answer this and you go back to "either 22 healing or 4 mp5", even though not all fights would create the same stat preference. Even if 22 healing is better one 1 fight and 4 mp5 is better on the other fight 11 heal 2 mp5 is still not the best choice.

 

• Playered

Try to keep in mind that not every guild is overflowing with Spinels which let you have the option to socket every single slot with them.

 

Calya

I really haven't seen many T6 priests saying that they socket 11heal/2mp5 because it's such an amazing and well-balanced gem. It seems to be more due to the lack of crimson spinels available to healers, and the fact that there is no epic heal/spirit option. If you want to focus on +heal and you can't put a spinel in every slot, amethysts it is. It's all well and good to say "well you are being logically inconsistent! I demand you stop contradicting yourself and put 22 heal gems in everything!" but healers don't always have that option. 2mp5 isn't really better than 11 heal for most priests, and 4mp5 is a terrible choice (since, as Constantius noted, 10 spirit outshines it in every way, so if you want pure regen you're better off going with sapphires). 10 spirit > 4mp5 generally, and 22 healing > 11heal/2mp5 in most cases as well, but is 10 spirit > 11heal/2mp5? The answer is going to vary for different people. And then there's the issue of socket colors and bonuses as well.

Basically it seems like you're trying to quantify with algebra a decision that many priests make based on gem and cut availability.

 

◊ Shalas

It is theoretically possible that 11 healing/2 mp5 will increase your potential healing by more than 22 healing or 4 mp5 due to that healing and mp5 have multiplicative effects on each other. However, that'd still only justify one of them -- ignoring socket bonuses, there's obviously no difference between 11 healing/2 mp5 * 2 and 22 healing + 4 mp5.

There's really only two good reasons to use 11 healing/2 mp5 gems:
1) Socket bonuses
2) 22 healing gems are not available. If you value 2 mp5 at somewhere between 7 and 11 healing, 11 mp5/2 mp5 is the best use of the socket. As almost no one has enough crimson spindels, this is a very common reason.

There's also a bad reason to use 11 healing/2 mp5 gems: you need more of both, and instead of figuring out which you need more, you use the mixed one. With blue gems, if you want more of both the Royal Nightseye was nearly always the right choice simply because it is massively overbudget. With the epic version, that's no longer true. The hybrid gems are nice for the wishy-washy, but ultimately they're almost never better than the pure ones if those are an option.

 

Lambi

The socket bonuses are the reason you use them. And the meta gem reqs. +healing is most often your best stat but you need regen too, so the mp5 you gain shouldn't be scoffed at either.

 

Sinndir

If I am not mistaken, most the highest level gear we can obtain from BT/Hyjal (Absolution, Legs of Eternity etc.) all have a majority if not pure blue gem slots. I don't understand why one would want to sacrifice gem bonus' for a preferred stat.

If you add up set bonus' you are looking at:
9 Healing - Archimonde Legs
9 Healing - T6 Helm
1 mp5 - T6 Gloves
7 Healing - T6 Shoulders
9 Healing - T6 Chest
7 Healing - Boots Divine Light
7 Healing - Belt Divine Guidance
4 Healing - Rage Bracers

I just think that grabbing the gem bonus' are important, for me as my guild is moving into BT/Hyjal I'm trying to decipher which I want more, 11 healing and 2 mp5 or 10 spirit, tough decision I think.

 

Psilux

Simply put, when you are raiding BT and Hyjal, you should be using flasks or elixirs, fishsticks, and weapon oil. Since the best weapon oil = 16mp5 (iirc), and rolling with elixir of draenic wisdom + elixir of healing power, on top of +44 healing and 20 spi from fishsticks, you should have regen equal to if not better than 600 mp5 outside 5 second rule, and 300 mp5 inside the 5 second rule. Now include potting, and you should almost never run out of mana.

Given that backdrop information, if you end ANY fight with an excess of mana, then you should try to adjust you have "too much" mana regen for that particular fight. So, if you are not using up your entire mana pool, then you may want to reconsider how much mana regen you are using and evaluate how you can change that.

Personally, on any set bonus that isn't +healing, it's a nobrainer for me. I'll socket a red +22 healing gem. On socket bonuses where I may get something decent out of it (like +9 healing from the eternity leggings off arch), I'd socket all +11/+2mp5 gems. If the sockets have a yellow, I'd go all red gems and forsake that bonus. Obviously though, what works for you may be different. I usually end fights like council, ROS, or gurtogg with just a sliver of mana left in my mana pool. Fights like supremus and akama make it hard to gauge how much mana regen you really do need.

 

Anedris

The waiting list for spinels in my guild is more than two weeks long. There is no waiting list for amethysts. I value 11 +heal as greater than 2 mp5 (because I have never found myself limited by mana). Ergo I socket amethysts. (And yes, I meet set bonuses wherever I find them.)

 

human fish

I still use the old one, [Brilliant Mana Oil], since getting 25 healing for 2mp5 is a nice tradeoff. Get an enchanter buddy, clear Stratholme in 30 minutes and you'll have enough for ten of those easily.

I don't understand why the new oils are so relatively bad compared to the old ones.

 

Kass

Agreed. I run Stratholme with a Mage probably 1-2 times a week in preparation for Sunwell. We pull in probably 20 LBS and over 20g each every run. There's absolutely no reason not to use the old one, and farming for them is incredibly easy.

 

Starfire

I am convinced they will be nerfed. It's the way Blizzard works. They wont buff the new ones, they will nerf the old ones. It's just a question of time.

 

◊ alinna

If you're looking solely to boost healing and don't particularly care for mp5 on your oil, you can use Superior Wizard Oil. Although it doesn't say so in the tooltip, it will also increase your +healing.

 

galzohar

You must've just scemed through my post and didn't notice I did say that you'll probably end up using 11 heal 2 mp5 anyway due to avialability and/or socket bonus, but it's never the "prefered" gem type. And while many people don't claim they use 11 heal 2 mp5 becuase it's "the best", a lot of people seem to claim it gives the most "balance" and is the best gem and they would use it over 22 healing or 4 mp5 if given the option when socket bonuses and availability aren't an issue, which is totally incorrect.

 

Lambi

22 healing gems are the best gems for most priests, but you have to check reality and compare with setbonuses and the meta gem requirements. As a shadowpriest you can always go socket 12 dmg gems after you've met the meta reqs and it will be the best, as a holy priest you can't just stack one stat in that way since you'll always need the baseline regen and out of combat regen.

I myself think that 22 healing on it's own is worth more to me than 11h/2mp5, but I prefer getting 42h/6mp5 with the socketbonus instead of having 66h plain if we take archi pants as an example. Especially if you factor in the rareness of spinels. As many other priests have said before me, it's a shame and very weird that we don't have 11h/5spi gems since that would fill most blue requirements for me atleast.

 

Rerolled

All discussion about spinel demand and socket bonuses aside, consider the following hypothetical, but entirely plausible, scenario. You have 20 sockets to fill, and there are no relevant socket bonuses. Putting 22 healing gems in every socket leaves you with insufficient regen for some fights, while using all 4 mp5 gems leaves you with insufficent healing throughput for other fights. Ideally one would have two sets of differently gemmed gear for each situation, but not many people will have access to two sets of tier 6 and the gems to socket both.

 

galzohar

The above example is just as likely if not even less likely to happen than the "11 heal 2 mp5 stacking" to result with "*still* not enough hps for the hps fight and not enough mp5 for the mp5 fight". At the end if you're using 1 gearset for everything and averaging your needs out, you still come out with one being on top.

Again there's the exception where stacking +healing actually turns the tide between healing and mp5 and makes mp5 better, however healing and mp5 have to be so rediculessly close in value it's quite unrealistic to run into such a situation.

 

Rerolled

Granted that's a possibility as well, and a few gems is rarely going to make or break anything, but I wouldn't say it's that unrealistic; encounter length, and thus the value of mp5, varies wildly from one boss to another.

 

Vihermaali

I could gem +22 healing gems in one slot and +4mp5 gems in another slot, but result would be the same. 2 gems, +22 healing and +4mp5.

I need to upgrade both my healing and manaregeneration. What part of "I need both" do you not understand? It isn't a simple "which one is better". Healing power and mana regeneration are two completely seperate things.

 

Viv

Spirit's getting buffed.

From 2.4 patch notes:

 

Lambi

Ohhhh, I'd love to get coefficients too, but that might actually make intellect good again!

 

Sunchips

I'd be wary to assume straight buff out of that. The wording is terribly ambiguous. It could easily be "intellect at 700 = current spirit-to-regen formula" with less being a nerf and more being a buff etc. Don't be too hasty until we have some numbers on it. The patch note gives very little to work with.

 

jaedan31

The spirit change is likely the most important change for raiding priests coming up in 2.4, so we should probably address it as quickly as we can. The main issue is that we do not know how intellect will increase spirit based regeneration. I do think, however, that based on previous precedent it will almost certainly be linear.

Spirit regeneration as it is now gives regeneration per tick (2 seconds) in the following form:

0.25 * S + 12.5 = R, where S = spirit and R = regen per tick.


The wording hints that intellect will effect how much regeneration you get from spirit, not your overall regeneration rate, and so if we define C as the coefficient that determines how much regeneration you get from spirit, the formula would look as follows:

C * S + 12.5 = R. Another alternative is (0.25 * S + 12.5) * C = R, but this leads to spirit regeneration increasing due to intellect increases in quadrature instead of linearly, and so it is much more likely to be the first I listed.

I think it is probably safe to assume that the coefficient itself is calculated linearly from intellect as well.

C = m * I + b, where m is the slope and b is the coefficient at 0 intellect.

The coefficient before the change, C, is 0.25. I think we can expect C to remain at approximately this value at ~T5 level gear, or approximately 500 unbuffed intellect. That means we can expect the slope, m, to be (0.25/500)= 0.0005 and the value of b will likely be negligble (or 0).

For those of you lucky enough to get your characters onto the Test Realm when they come up I ask you to perform some simple tests and post back here.

1) Calculate the value of m

• With all of your gear on, record your MP5 out of combat and your intellect. Make sure you are wearing 2-3 items without spirit/mp5, like pvp items. Call your mp5 M_1 and your intellect I_1.
  
• With all of your gear on except the items that have no spirit/mp5, record your intellect and your MP5 out of combat. Call your mp5 M_2 and your intellect I_2.
  
• Convert mp5 to per tick. M_1*2/5 = R_1. M_2*2/5 = R_2.
  
• Substitute everything into the above equations and solve for m. Here is what you get: m = (R_1 - R_2)/(S*(I_1 - I_2)). I expect the value of m to be something like 0.0005.

2) Verify that the coefficient increases linearly with intellect.

• Remove all of your gear except the items that do not have spirit/mp5. Record your mp5 (M_1) and your intellect (I_1).
  
• Remove the items without spirit/mp5 that you left on. Record your mp5 (M_2) and your intellect (I_2).
  
• Convert mp5 to per tick. M_1*2/5 = R_1. M_2*2/5 = R_2.
  
• Resolve for m. m = (R_1 - R_2)/(S*(I_1 - I_2)). This should be the same value you calculated before if intellect increases the coefficient linearly.

If I am indeed guessing correctly (and please speak up if you see another reasonable way for Blizzard to implement this), then the new formula for your regeneration per tick (2 seconds) would be:

m*S*I + (12.5 + b) = R, where S is spirit, I is intellect, b is some constant that is probably 0, R is your regeneration rate, and m is the all important coefficient that we need to know to theorycraft.

What's interesting about the mathematics of this approach is that even though the initial undertaking was to increase the coefficient on spirit, the end result is that 1 point of spirit or 1 point of intellect will increase your regeneration by the same amount. However, 1 point of intellect and 1 point of spirit will increase your regeneration far more than 2 points of spirit or 2 points of intellect. If this is indeed the correct theorycraft, you'll want to maximize the product of S*I.

If someone is able to verify this system when the test server comes up and provide the value of "m" in my equations, I can then go ahead and calculate the equivalent MP5 OOC on the top tier items.