Not only that spreadsheet ignores mana efficiency (+healing/hps) it even ignores the base mana gained from intelect the way it looks, as you don't even seem to have a "fight duration" entry that would be required in order to calculate it. The base mana from intelect may be low but it isn't something you can just ignore when comparing gear that is more varied than gems (like 3 int vs 2 mp5 for example, or 11 int vs 2 mp5, or whatever).

Pardon me for asking, but how do you possibly get up to 874 Spirit? Based on the gear in your profile with full buffs you would be just slightly above 700 Spirit. In your current snapshot you have BoK, GotW, DS, and Alchemist Stone on and have 694 Spirit, but are missing Draenic Wisdom which would bring you a little higher. This would dramatically change the numbers you posted.

Running with your current buffed stats vs. the adjusted values:

(0.001+(694)*0.009327*(688^0.5)*5 = 848.92
(0.001+(705.43)*0.009327*(677^0.5)*5 = 855.98

Calculating for Meditation + 30% OO5SR:
(848.92*.3) + (848.92*.7*.3) = 432.95
(855.98*.3) + (855.98*.7*.3) = 436.55

Difference of 3.6 Mp5, not counting regen "tricks" (probably around 21-28 extra mana per 3 minutes on an Inner Focus/Clearcasting routine) or Innervates (+113 mana) which would increase that by a fair margin. Disregarding those factors--which I'm not sure is very realistic--would mean that the regen would overtake the base Int in terms of mana pool after 3.9 minutes, which is longer than most boss fights unless you severely outgear them.

(Also, I'm not totally sure what you mean by "At 3.2 mana/5s it'd take 8.6 min to break even" either, as 3.2 Mp5 would generate 165 mana in 258 seconds, which is only 4.3 minutes? Perhaps it's late and I'm tired, but why is your value double there? Over a 5 minute fight, 165 mana is only equivalent to (165 / 300 * 5) = 2.75 Mp5.)

If you were indeed approaching 900 Spirit, one would assume that the relative value of Int (as discussed in the other thread) would increase somewhat. But given "normal" Priest stats (which is probably somehwere in the realm of 600-700 Spirit) I don't believe 9 Spirit vs. 10 Int (which comes out to be 11.4345 Spirit vs. 11 Int after multipliers for Humans) will typically be in favor of Int. One may also argue that when approaching 900 Spirit, regen is somewhat of a less important issue and one may primarily be focusing on +Healing anyhow, where Spirit would also win due to its more balanced nature.

I would rather not debate healing vs. stamina as I think it's highly situational and very much depending on the fight involved. Some fights involve minimal risk to healers (Kaz'rogal, Azgalor, etc.), and thus one would want to wear optimal healing stats. Other fights involve high risk (Naj'entus, Illidari Council, etc.) and one would want to wear Stamina-oriented gear. That said, for pure healing stats the Soul-Strider Boots would have higher regen and higher healing, and thus are pretty clear winners to me for an optimal healing piece--certainly worth considering if Stamina is not a specific issue.

Anyhow... in regard to [Leggings of Eternity] vs. [Adorned Supernal Legwraps]. It seems to me that Adorned Supernal Legwraps actually end up winning, based on multipliers and whatnot. To compare the breakdown here:

Adorned Supernal Legwraps
40 Intellect
62 Spirit
114 Healing

Leggings of Eternity
38 Intellect
30 Spirit
130 Healing
16 Mp5

Difference:
+2 Intellect
+32 Spirit
-16 Healing
-16 Mp5

32 Spirit for a Human equates to 40.656 Spirit raid-buffed, meaning 14.2 Healing. This brings the +Healing advantage down to 1.8 in that case. Taking somewhat "average" figures of 700 Spirit/600 Int similar to the quoted bit, we'd end up with:

Leggins of Eternity
(0.001+(700)*0.009327*(600^0.5)*5 = 799.63 (+16) Regen -> (239.9 + 16) = 255.9 Mp5

Adorned Supernal Legwraps
(0.001+(740.656)*0.009327*(602^0.5)*5 = 847.48 Regen -> 254.2 Mp5

Adjusting for ~30% OO5SR, you would end up getting a quite a bit more total regen out of the 31.85 additional OO5SR regen value. As you're only talking about a difference of less than 2 +healing at that point, I can't really see a very compelling argument for Leggings of Eternity actually being better--other than the fact that I spent a lot of DKP getting mine.

If you're not a Human, that may skew the value down a bit... but chances are it would be still be slightly better or around the same. I am a bit concerned, however, that the Human racial is a bit "too good" for a Priest with all these new changes. I see many calculations disregarding it, but an 11.55% increase in Spirit nowadays is pretty insane when you think about it.

I have my spell surge weapon equiped with 0 spirit(well, depends on when you look at my profile) and not the neck I'll be using in 2.4 and I'm planing on replacing 5x 2mana/5s 11 healing gems with 10 spirit ones, add golden fishsticks and I'll be up at the stats mentioned.

You're correct about the mana/5s conversion into mana/min, I messed up there and multiplied by 6 instead of 12. And I didn't multiply the spi and int figures correctly either, but in the end it won't make much of a differance. Correct numbers would be..

(0.001+865*0.009327*(688^0.5))*5=1058.1
(0.001+876.4345*0.009327*(677^0.5))*5=1063.5
1063.5-1058.1=5.4
30% OO5SR 5.4x0.51=2.754

165/(2.754x12)=5 mins before the spirit will provide more mana

But yea.. At my values spirit and int is almost worth as much for mana regeneration purposes. Spirit will add a decent amount to healing however, making it clearly suprerior. I'm not really arguing for that you should want 10int over 9 spirit 3 healing. What it boils down to is 300hp vs 7-8 healing and taking a crimson spinel from the guild bank that I'd rather use on gear that isn't only for situational use.

Sides, I know that I'd rather want those 300hp than the minor healing augment for the first three bosses in the Sunwell, the only place it'll really matter. And after that I'll have boots of absolution soon enough with 3 token drops per kill.

As far as spirit goes, in full-T6 gear (which is basically where I'm at now, missing a whopping 2 items + Memento to be completely done), it's entirely possible to break 800 spirit raid buffed without being human. If I could get my hands on the Archimonde OH, and the wand from RoS, I'd be at 830 spirit raid-buffed, with 710 intellect. That's 1031 Mp5 OO5SR *ignoring my static Mp5* (which is over 120 raid-buffed). Ridiculous? Yes.

But at the same time, spirit is the only gem that actually scales with Kings and SoR, which makes it reasonably powerful as a healing/regen composite.

Above, someone commented that you "lose a lot of +heal" to pickup the [Staff of Immaculate Recovery]. I just wanted to clarify the comparison. I'm assuming either:

[Staff of Immaculate Recovery]

or

[Apostle of Argus]

or

[Light's Justice] + [Scepter of Purification]

If we include the Illidan mace ([Crystal Spire of Karabor]) it becomes quite ludicrous, but if you're only considering staves or Light's, it's a lot closer. Assume SoR, BoK, and IDS, no human racial, with 650 intellect:

[Staff of Immaculate Recovery]
457 +heal
62 Mp5 OO5SR
28.4 Mp5 IO5SR

[Apostle of Argus]
486 +heal
23 Mp5 IO5SR

[Light's Justice] + [Scepter of Purification]
477 +heal
62 Mp5 OO5SR
18.5 Mp5 IO5SR

Basically, Either Staff or Light's+Scepter win, simply because the very very small upgrade in +heal from Apostle is more than made up for by the giant leaps forward in Mp5 from the other two. That is, of course, unless you desperately want +heal?

Ideally, we're all going to be using [Scepter of Purification] + <a mace from BT or Sunwell that has Mp5 on it>, but that's perfect situation. I'm using Argus atm, and will until I can manage to pickup a Scepter from shard land. It's not a common drop, but I'm hoping pre-Sunwell I'll get lucky.

If I understand the sheet correctly, all normal gem slots are given flat values of 18 regardless of colour? Would it not be better to work out a number based on the stat amounts entered for gem choice and stat point values entered in the other cells? e.g. the +10 Spirit gem would be worth 10 * 1.3 = 13 assuming the default value for Spi.

Although I note that doing this with the default values makes [Purified Shadow Pearl] better than [Sparkling Empyrean Sapphire].

So basically, the weapon progression for a priest looks like:

[Light's Justice] + [Voodoo Shaker]

[Staff of Immaculate Recovery] (Bank LJ for a while)

[Light's Justice] + [Scepter of Purification]


Not that I mind LJ being a "best in slot" piece (fewer enchants required), but it's kinda funny that the last boss in the first raid and the last boss in the last raid are the only 2 1-handers.


EDIT: actually, you'd be hard pressed to upgrade -at all- until Archimonde. You could take [Staff of Immaculate Recovery] as your spellsurge weapon and stick with LJ/VS until Archimonde.

They do, I misspoke. They do drop "healer" maces. They just don't drop -priest- maces. They lack regen in comparison to LJ in many cases, though you could make a case for the Vashj mace.

What a stupid question. Would you want to try healing if you had +50000 healing but only 1 mp5 while casting? I wouldn't.

Hmm...

I wonder if [Robes of Heavenly Purpose] would be worth breaking 3 piece PMC post-patch (assuming it goes through)

There are also the gladiator maces and the 2.4 badge reward. In each case you're trading 20 spirit for 40/60 healing. If you look at it from a pure regen perspective then LJ is better but I'd still use every other mace mentioned on this page before I'd use LJ, because regen is not such a problem for me that I need to make these kind of trade-offs.

Even if regen is a problem, the best and quickest ways to fix this are in gem and trinket slots, where you can simply stack regen and get the best trade-offs available.

After the patch those Robes fare extremely well statistically. However, the PMC 3-piece also becomes more valuable after the patch, so I would probably still say for raw healing that you would have to upgrade 2-3 of the slots to be worth dropping for non-Stamina fights.

However, I currently use the Robes for my Stamina set and they already perform around the same as T5. After the patch they should be better than T5. T6 is still better, of course, but much harder to get obviously.

In regard to weapons, I swapped from Light's Justice for the Kaz'rogal mace some time ago simply because it was a signifcant +healing upgrade (~53ish IIRC) and I did not feel the regen loss was significant enough to ignore that fact. I do wish there was a higher ilevel Spirit 1-hander, though, as it would probably be a large upgrade over the current options. I'm considering grabbing the badge weapon after 2.4 comes out, but I'm not totally certain yet. We have been horribly unlucky on Vashj kills and have only saw 1 mace in all of our kills--we have since stopped doing her, but I could get lucky on the couple runs if we go back to grab tokens for the Sunwell gates...it's an extremely nice healing weapon, and probably the best currently prior to the Illidan mace.

Actually if I could still use mana potions and have an average starting mana pool (not to mention a shadow priest and/or shaman although those wouldn't be needed for my point) I'd heal a lot better with +50k healing and 0 mp5 on gear and 0 spirit than any priest geared with any gear avaialble in the game using any kind of buffs he wants. There is no mp5 requirement if your +healing is high enough. Of course when you talk such huge numbers there's the problem of downranking so far down etc but with such high healing if you spam the highest rank that you could spam infinitely you'll do enough healing to heal anyone to full in 1 heal.

For what its worth, I calculated the difference between [Leggings of Eternity] and [Adorned Supernal Legwraps] as a Human with 454 Int and 556 Spirit (unbuffed).

I counted racial, talents, and standard raid buffs (including Imp DS and kings). I assumed blue socket = +10spirit and red socket = +22 healing.

By replacing [Leggings of Eternity] with [Adorned Supernal Legwraps], you gain 17.63 OOCMP5, you lose 5.91 ICMP5, and you gain 24.78 healing. And of course the obvious stam you would lose.

From a pure regen stand point, they even out when you spend 25% of your time out of combat.

Or you could have just used MP5-modified.xls and compared

I'm curious as to why [Ethereum Life-Staff] isn't listed as a viable option here for weapon progression.

By my admittedly haphazard calculations, I come up with 440 +heal, 85 mp5 OO5SR, and 25.4 mp5 IO5SR. Granted it's less Stamina and Int and +Heal than later staves, but unless the difference in +Heal is really that vital, it seems better than LJ and either off-hand, unless you know mana regen isn't an issue. So what am I missing?

I'm mainly wondering because I ran Karazhan for literally 7 months straight without an LJ dropping, and I'm trying to convince myself it's not worth having.

I think our conclusion is ... there's lots of weapons, and in 2.4, it's not going to matter a whole lot which ones you pick, *assuming* you don't grab a gladiator weapon. If you do, then the loss of regen stats (traded for resilience) is a net loss compared to an equivalent weapon.

For consideration as your weapons:

T4+ Mainhands: (up to ilvl 138)
[Shard of the Virtuous]
[Gladiator's Salvation]
[Light's Justice]
[Merciless Gladiator's Salvation]
[Dark Blessing]

T4+ Offhands:
[Signet of Unshakable Faith]
[Aran's Soothing Sapphire]
[Gladiator's Reprieve]
[Voodoo Shaker]
[Talisman of the Sun King]
[Merciless Gladiator's Reprieve]

T4+ Staves:
[Rod of the Blazing Light]
[Nightstaff of the Everliving]
[Exodar Life-Staff]
[Crystalheart Pulse-Staff]
[Staff of Dark Mending]
[Ethereum Life-Staff]

T5+ Mainhands: (up to ilvl 156, i.e. Vashj->Sunwell)
[Lightfathom Scepter]
[Hammer of Atonement]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Salvation]
[Gavel of Naaru Blessings]
[Crystal Spire of Karabor]
Archon's Gavel

T5+ Offhands:
[Touch of Inspiration]
[Vengeful Gladiator's Reprieve]
[Scepter of Purification]

T5+ Staves:
[Staff of Immaculate Recovery]
[Apostle of Argus]
Goldenstaff of the Sin'dorei

Kinien, I D/Led your spreadsheet and found it very useful. I tend to agree with the stat valuations you propose on most counts. Thanks for the effort.

Said valuations prompted me to discuss the merits of [Lightfathom Scepter], as most of the recent debate centers on spirit-enhanced weapons. I will readily agree that the value of spirit for a Human Priest is extremely worthwhile, especially so after 2.4.

However, no matter which way I view it + 443 to heal & 11 mp5 outshines any healing mace barring the Illidan one. And the stats are not to be scoffed at. Since a spirit/mp5 ratio of 1:2.8 (or 3.2 as per Kinien) seems to be a balanced offset and provided the damned mace drops (it didn't for us in 10 kills), why should a Priest cling to LJ?

Well, I would never take Light's Justice over the Lightfathom Scepter--but I don't think anyone has proposed that as an option either. The +healing difference is more than enough to offset the loss of Spirit.

My biggest disappointment with healing weapon itemization, however, is the fact the Light's Justice is -still- the only 1-hander with Spirit on it. If a higher ilevel weapon were to be released (e.g. a badge weapon, for instance) it would probably easily beat the Lightfathom Scepter and possibly even the Crystal Spire of Karabor.

Although we've seen Archon's Gavel as not having Spirit, I still hope there is a successor to the Light's Justice out there somewhere.

As it stands right now, the Goldenstaff of the Sin'dorei would end up as:
+54 Intellect
+81 Spirit (103 for a Human with SoR/BoK!)
+32 Spell Haste
+550 Healing (586 w/ 103 Spirit)

Archon's Gavel + Scepter of Purification would be:
+42 Intellect
+25 Spirit (32 for a Human with SoR/BoK)
+599 Healing (610 w/ Spirit)
+11 Mp5

Difference when comparing the Staff to the Gavel would be
+12 Intellect
+71 Spirit
+32 Spell Haste
-24 Healing
-11 Mp5

Now, I think we all know that 12 Int/71 Spirit is worth a LOT more than 11 Mp5 in terms of regen. But to run the numbers... but for some examples.

Base: (0.001+(700)*0.009327*(600^0.5)*5 = 799.63 (+11) = 810.63 Regen -> 250.89 Mp5
Base: (0.001+(771)*0.009327*(612^0.5)*5 = 889.5 Regen -> 266.85 Mp5

So, you're looking at roughly an increase of 16 Mp5 while casting at least. Calculating for 30% OO5SR, that goes up to 413.42 vs. 453.64 = 40.23 Mp5.

So, unless there's some insane offhand that can make up that difference or a Spirit 1-hander, the Staff is probably by far the best option for Priests looking forward in 2.4.

As a point of amusement, I suppose we should all be excited that the [Cuffs of Absolution] now have spell hit instead of Stamina on them!

What is crazy is I have felt for some time straight mp5 cost too much on item budget...with 2.4 changes it has become even more apparent. I think I need to lower its value in my arbitrary item values on the spreadsheet.

It's a maddening itemization hole, because it affect two classes, not one. Spirit is effective for Druids as well. That said, however, it seems from the itemization available that we're meant to use staffs in T5+ content, which I suppose makes sense, considering paladins and shamans use shields.

In your sheet, you have a somewhat similar weight for healing vs. mp5 as I do in my calculation method, being somewhere around the lines of 1 Healing = 2.9 Mp5. (You have 1 Healing = 2.8 Mp5)

What seems odd in your sheet is that your value for Spirit and Int is amazingly low. 1.3 Spirit doesn't really make any sense. Once you have a weight for Healing vs. Mp5, you can derive the value of Spirit and Int from those figures--as both Spirit and Int can be expressed in terms of Mp5 and/or Healing.

Spirit's value relative to Healing/Mp5 values are: ((Spirit_Mp5*Mp5_Value) + (Spirit_Healing*Healing_Value)) * Spirit_Multiplier

Considering 30% OO5SR regen time, I calculate roughly 0.582 Mp5 per Spirit with ~600 Int/680 Spirit. Healing is obviously a value of .35 with Imp. DS/Spiritual Guidance. The multiplier for a human Priest with BoK and SoR is 1.2705.

Thus, if Healing is worth 1 and Mp5 is worth 2.9 then logically Spirit should be worth:
((1 * 0.35) + (2.9 * 0.582)) * 1.2705 = 2.59

So, by that measure, Spirit should be worth about double what it is on your sheet by looking at the implied values of Mp5 and Healing.

Likewise, Int can be factored as ((15 / Fight_Duration * 5) + Intellect_Mp5) * Intellect_Multiplier. To make a long story short, that comes out to be 1.86 over a 5 minute fight with similar calculation methods. That's a little over 3 times the value you have.

While I'm sure everyone has their own preference in terms of Healing:Mp5 ratio (although I think that 1:2.5-3 is a pretty common factor) Spirit and Intellect's value is very simple to automagically figure out. Once you have set the Healing:Mp5 ratio, they are simply factors of either or both of those values after adjusting for OO5SR time, fight duration, talents, and current Int/Spirit values.

For me, those values reflect pre-2.4 values. I basically took a 2.3 gear spreadsheet I had and adapted it for 2.4. In fact, I think I stole the values for the different stats from your sheet several months ago. The nice thing is I set the values as changable to whomever uses it so you can set your own values and play with the numbers, so it really should be a non-issue. The value system in my spreadsheet was an afterthought, the main reason I created my original gear spreadsheet was to calculate spirit vs mp5 on gear sets so I could easily choose my options. For the most part I like to look at all the gear selections for the slots and compare +heal as well as regen and draw my own conclusions.