Fwing

http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t15499-p...tat_weighting/

Soon to be outdated by 2.4 though.

 

Jayde

You can check the link in my sig for one of the potential spreadsheets for calculating these things. While I attempt to be mathematically objective, weighting is always a subjective process for healers due to the fact that regen vs. HPS vs. longevity vs. healing pool is not a binary result. (Unlike DPS, which is very simple.)

I usually go with a ratio of 1 Mp5 ~= 3 Healing as a ballpark. However, the ratio of healing to Mp5 is very subjective and variable.

That said, one you have the ratio of +Healing to Mp5, the ratios for Int and Spirit are not subjective, provided you have correct input values for encounter duration, talents, and other bonuses. Both Spirit and Int can be broken down into components of Mp5 and Healing, and therefore once you have that base ratio, the value of Spirit and Int are quite easy to calculate.

For instance, with my stats, talents, bonuses, average OO5SR%, and an encounter duration of 5 minutes, Spirit will always be worth (0.445 * Healing_Weight) + (0.75 * Mp5_Weight) and Int will always be worth (0.635 * Mp5_Weight). These ratios depend on many factors, though, so you must have correct input values to get to the bottom of them.

Weighting for a healing class will always be a bit hit or miss and subjective, in addition to requiring many input variables in order to be resonably accurate.

Nowadays, my personal preferences lean towards a general weighting of:
1 Healing = 1
1 Mp5 = 2.91 ("easy" version: 2.9 or 3)
1 Spirit = 2.63 ("easy" version: 2.75)
1 Intellect = 1.85 ("easy" version: 1.9)

But, again, there are many, many input variables to consider before you get to an "accurate" factoring. (For instance, I'm Human which will weight Spirit substantially higher than non-Human. PMC bonus would also contribute to a higher figure for Spirit and Int.) However, most gear is not so close to require too much fussing over decimal places.

I'm sure there are many other opinions on this topic, though.

 

Starfire

What about:

#4: [Elixir of Mastery] + [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom]

Terribly disturbed that Distilled Wisdom is now superior to Mighty Restoration. 65 int is still a good chunk of mana (715 with kings? assuming no Discipline talents). Takes 75 seconds for 1mp5 = 1 int.

Wow. Is there even going to be a point for mp5 anymore? lol. Seems like a bloated stat in terms of the item budget.

 

Bendyr

Jayde, what is the "Duration (sec)" setting in your spreadsheet for? Is that the duration of the fight?

Also, I'm already using the Insightful Earthstorm Diamond, but according to your stat weights and my calculations, it now completely blows any other meta gem out of the water, right?

I got 6 procs of the IED on a 7 min FLK fight last week, resulting in 1800 mana restored. 1800 mana over 7 mins = 21.4 mp5. With my values plugged into your spreadsheet, I have Int worth 1.38 and mp5 worth 2.96. So according to your spreadsheet calculations:

21.5*2.96 = 63.34
1.38*12 = 16.56

The IED is worth 79.9.

So unless you value the reduced threat of the bracing earthstorm diamond as 53 healing equivalent, the IED completely blows it out of the water.

This also is forcing me to re-evaluate any helm without a meta-gem slot. According to these calcs, the T4 [Light-Collar of the Incarnate] is now better than [Hood of the Third Eye] off Malacrass.

Is my math here just completely wrong?

 

Jayde

I suppose I could calculate the average IED contribution if I referenced the 5SR Cast of GH. Should be close enough to get at least a ballpark figure for the Mp5. Right now I'm presuming Bracing in meta sockets only, but now that you mention it I will add in an option to toggle meta gems. Thanks for pointing that out.

(Personally I found the IED wwwwaaaay too inconsistant to actually like it though. Perhaps it's due to primarily using GH as my normal spell, but after having some full Vashj/Kael fights at the time only giving me 1-2 procs, I pretty much gave up on it as being horribly inconsistant. I swapped to the Bracing Earthstorm as soon as they changed the requirements. However, now that Int is actually a solid stat on its own, and yellow gems aren't so useless compared to before, it is probably worth reevaluating.)

Edit: After referencing an average 4.64s casting time of GH (30% OO5SR average) and a 5% proc rate, the IED seems to be 16.15 Mp5 on average. Combined with the value of the Int it would seem to be worth around 69.3 on my scale compared to 26 on Bracing Earthstorm. Although, I have serious question about the proc rate simply because the tooltip states 2%, however the spell seems to indicate a 5% rate. That would make a rather huge difference--6.4 vs. 16.15 Mp5. If it is actually 5%, I suppose I will have to revisit this gem now, especially as 12 Intellect is actually quite good post-2.4. Ballparking at a 2% rate with pre-2.4 Int, I would say Bracing is generally better, but this possibly changes things quite dramatically. I will add an option to select which meta to us in the next version of my sheet.

Starfire, I'm with you on your suggestion... I will probably be using Draenic Wisdom + Mastery after the patch.

 

terjekv

As a side note, this is becoming somewhat "common knowledge", and both these pots require Terocone. I'd start stocking up now, because Terokkar is going to be *farmed*.

 

Incoherence

Like Jayde says, the equivalence from healing to mp5 is not a very clean calculation. Since there's not a single output metric the way there is for DPS, the value you get is going to depend somewhat on what output metric you use. Jayde's spreadsheet includes several different ones to play with. You may have different ideas.

The good news is that once you get the healing to mp5 conversion set, all the other stats convert easily to one or the other. (Except spell haste, I guess, although I can imagine someone trying to convert it to +healing.)

 

• constantius

See edited thread above for stats, but to repeat:

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

kalbear

I've searched the thread but have not found a clear specific answer other than various bits and pieces. Is there a reasonably up-to-date list of pre-Kara gear for a priest? I'm not happy with Kaliban's, and only have found other references that are a bit incomplete. Specifically, I have not seen a lot of quest rewards mentioned.

Thanks!

 

Bendyr

kalbear, what you can do is determine what your stat weight preferences are (using jayde's spreadsheet or your own logic), and plug those values into a search engine like lootrank and tell it to not find items above a certain iLevel.

For example, with my stat weights, you can find kara and heroic level gear with this link (there will be some kara gear mixed in, but most of this stuff is crafted/heroic)

Loot Rank

 

Moinsdetrois

It really can be difficult to determine how much healing or mp5 you would get from one point of another stat. It all changes on a fractional level based on talents choices, and even your play style, if you downrank or benefit from other abilities.

 

Morakk

The only way I personally found to balance healing vs. regen is to socket more healing if I consistently can't or rather don't use all my mana, and to socket more regen if I ever have to not cast because of mana issues.

I really don't think that any spreadsheet can give you an answer that you should be happy with; the values for each individual vary far too much on your point in progression, spec, healing style, healing style of those in your guild....

 

derevka

Power Aura mod is awesome. It puts a graphic around your character when you either get a buff, or trigger a trinket...

For example, I have a "pulsing" light blue "wave" that goes around me when I use my Tome of Diabolic Remedy. I get a Pulsing green wave if I get an innervate. I get a pulsing yellow circle when I proc clearcasting.

Its really helpful so you know when you get a buff, or if you still have it without trying to find it on your buff list.

 

• Richelieu

Absolutely agree. If having x total regen with mana pots gets you through your guild's most mana-demanding fight, any gems or gear stats you spend on regen beyond that are a complete waste. In contrast, more +heal, crit etc. always increases your HPS. For that reason trying to establish a formula equating +heal and MP5 seems only of theoretical interest. But it is important to determine the relative strengths of the mana regen stats--MP5 and Spirit (and Int in 2.4)--so you can get to the regen level you need using minimum item budget.

 

• sordee

Or start doing this daily for Sunwell Plateau days.

Quest: Open for Business - Quests - WOWDB
Reward: Bloodberry Elixir - Items - WOWDB

 

Incoherence

Complicating factor: upranking. Even if you have enough regen to chaincast GHeal N all day long and never go out of mana, you can switch to GHeal N+1 (or just cast more and cancel less), thereby increasing your HPS and increasing your "regen cap". Well... at least until you're chaincasting GHeal 7 all day, but I don't think that much regen exists in the game.

What +healing, spell crit, and spell haste do that regen can't do is increase your HPS ceiling (whether you're talking about GHeal 7 or CoH).

 

PowerBaton

You see, there is hard to say about HPS while spamming CoH, dont think so there is exist any gear what can give you such mana regen to spam all the time CoH. (Maybe x2 s-priest's + Resto shammy). About GH There all up what rank you're using. With 1st or 2nd average gear guarantee you "whole-day mana poll". Then you can think about SpellCrit or SpellHaste imo.

 

• Richelieu

/facepalm. Doh--of course you are right. Thanks for the enlightenment. I've been using GH3 for so long as my standard cast that I forgot why I'm having to do that... So it's back to Jayde's spreadsheet to puzzle the numbers.

@Jayde: would it be possible to add a column showing items' stamina value in the "Equipment" tabs for informational purposes? I know stamina is not an input to the spreadsheet's formula but it'd be good to easily see when some piece with a tiny regen improvement also loses you 20 stam. I'd do it myself but I'm afraid to screw up the spreadsheet. If you want I can do the work of collecting the stam values for the gear in those tabs and send the data to you.

 

• constantius

Assuming Clearcasting, and the 450 Mp5 I'm going to have in 2.4, along with chain-use of super manas (call them 2400 mana per click), and a shadow priest (300 MP5) and a resto shaman (50 Mp5 + Tide), I *can* chain-cast GH:7 for the entire duration of <insert fight here>.

Let's do the math:
825 mana (-15% = 702 mana), 2.5 second cast

Assume zero latency (picture-perfect case, perfect casting), and assuming a long enough fight that exactly 6% of casts are 'free' (clearcasting). Let's assume 10 minutes, and say that we use Inner Focus 3x for 3 additional free heals. Let's assume that my use of pots / shadowfiend actually takes up GCDs, so 7 total GCDs (5 pots, 2 shadowfiend uses), so take away 4 heals.

In 10 minutes, I would cast 240 GH:7. Of those, 14 would be Clearcast procs, so free, and 3 would be IF, with 4 more GCDs lost, so 219 casts costing me mana. Each costs 702 mana, so a grand total of 153, 738 mana spent.

In 10 minutes, I will innately regen 54,000 mana from my IO5SR Mp5 (with consumables, etc). In addition, I gain 6,000 mana from Mana Spring, and 36,000 mana from my shadow priest. My shadowfiend used twice is worth approximately 10,000 mana (it varies, obviously), and the potions used gain me 12,000 mana more. Finally, Mana Tide can be used twice, for 2x24%, or 6,200 mana. My mana pool is 13,000, which can be at empty as the fight terminates without too much issue. An innervate (if gained) is worth over 21,000 mana, but we can only count going from 700 mana (at which point you are casting your very last heal) to full, so 12,000 mana.

Grand total out: 153,738 mana.
Grand total in: 149, 200 mana.

Conclusion: with 1 innervate, a resto shaman, and a shadowpriest, plus standard consumables and effective use of cooldowns, I can chain-cast GH:7 for 9:45 without any real issues. Given that I realistically have *some* lag in there, I can effectively chain-cast GH:7 for 11 minutes straight. If I cast-cancel, I can do so for effectively forever.

(Side note: 2500 HPS+ on a single target)

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

Jayde

Edit: Never mind, did some testing and it didn't work that way. :P

 

Glasswizard

If think the conclusion will be that shadowpriests and (feral-) innervates will be used to support damagedealers. And it even seems to be necessary if I'm correctly informed about of some of the encounters in Sunwell.

 

• constantius

I'm not arguing that the SPs need to go to the dmg groups (mages, locks especially). On fights with AE, giving a SP to the BM hunter group is actually the best thing you can do (saves them having to heal their pets, which = moar dmg).

I was just pointing out how obscene our regen is going to be in 2.4. No-one chain-casts GH:7. It's stupid. There's not a boss in the game that hits hard enough to justify non-cast-cancelling GH:7 spam. Unless you're trying to solo heal it, that is. Put 2 resto druids on the tank, and add one cast-cancelling HL:11 paladin. Done. The priests can raid heal.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

PowerBaton

Idd, tbh Priests are best raid healers atm, maybe shamans are quite good as well

 

• constantius

Shamans excel at one thing: raid damage that is spread randomly throughout the raid in small enough quantities that CHeal can keep up to it. They also require that the raid be *somewhat* close, so the bounces from CHeal actually go somewhere useful.

There are other types of raid damage that priests are better at: steady group-wide damage (a la Bloodboil / RoS-melee or RoS-P3), heavy raid-wide damage that effects people one group at a time (a la Illidan P2), and once-in-a-while *large* raid damage that occurs on a set timer, and effects everyone, assuming you have flexibility for positioning (a la Naj'entus shields).

In all of those cases, priests *should* do a better job of raid top-up than shamans, just because our heals hit 5 people at once. Bloodboil healing from a priest perspective is far far better than shaman: I keep the group evenly topped up, whereas the shaman healers can let people dip dangerously, simply because CHeal might have skipped someone twice in its intelligent hopping, leaving someone with 5-6 ticks of unhealed damage. A CoH priest will have hit that group a minimum of 2x in that time frame, probably closer to 3x, which will leave everyone down 1500 HP instead of two people down 7k HP.

Putting both together on a job is the best of both worlds. On RoS P2 I basically spam CoH on the melee group, since they're all tight, they're all doing steady damage, and are all accordingly taking steady damage to themselves. One shaman backs me up by bouncing CHeal off the 3-4 melee in the raid who *aren't* in that group, incidentally bouncing it to the people in the group I'm solo healing in case they go WF-crit-crit during a deaden.

I wouldn't go as far as to say 'priests are the best' or 'shamans are the best'. Each excel at different things, and there's absolutely no situation where you *wouldn't* want at least 2 resto shamans in the raid. They're that good. In the same vein, though, it's a rare situation where you'd want only 1 holy priest in the raid. Once we gear up, we are the most flexible healers, and it's worth a lot to have that available to you as a raid leader.

Anyone who cannot cope with mathematics is not fully human. At best he is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe, and not make messes in the house. - R.A. Heinlein

 

PowerBaton

It's usual, all is up to event.

Was many times as paladin at all thoes event. Raid damage like on Mother is the best to top it up by shamans, like on Illidan or RoS is best thing for priest, like you said.