Was many times as paladin at all thoes event. Raid damage like on Mother is the best to top it up by shamans, like on Illidan or RoS is best thing for priest, like you said.
Mother is highly dependant on your tactic so you can hardly say that, I'm sure there are many guilds (like mine) which use a 1 camp tactic where CoH just does amazing due to everyone being tightly together.
Honestly there are so few T6 encounters off the top of my head where CoH wont do better provided about 30 seconds of establishing your raid locations smartly; Teron and perhaps IC?
That said it's often not just about the healing, obviously Shamans are quite capable of doing all of this sans CoH assistance, and this is where the additional benefits of bringing that class come in for the choice desirability of the spot.
The only real notable worth of the power of the raw healing is where it is enough to sub out one healer for an additional DPS due to the raw healing being high enough from that one person (ie: CoH Priest healing 2/3 or all 3 of the Bloodboil groups alone instead of having an extra healer required to sustain it).
IMO, Shaman are more suited on Mother to healing the OT's due to saber lash. Due to the HP status, all 3 damaged tanks will get healed by the chain heal, making it considerably easier to top them back off quickly.
I usually OH on Mother as a Priest. GH, FH, and a bit of CoH is quite fine to keep the raid up without too much help from the other healers.
I wouldn't say that Priests' main advantage is CoH though. Like I posted some while back, there aren't -that- many occasions to use it. However, the mix of Prayer of Mending, Renew, multiple GH ranks, Binding Heal, Flash Heal, PWS and CoH makes Priests extremely flexible in dealing with changing circumstances in a raid.
Shaman generally end up spamming Chain Heal anyhow, so it's best just to let them do that and allow an "active" Priest to take care of the other various raid damage sources. Shaman+Priest on OH is generally a very flexible combo--because, let's face it, most fights require more than one raid healer anyhow.
Realistically, though, GH makes up the majority of my healing on any given night... with Prayer of Mending as probably the 2nd point (even though it's not easy to track, sadly.) CoH probably comes in as my 3rd source most of the time.
Terribly disturbed that Distilled Wisdom is now superior to Mighty Restoration. 65 int is still a good chunk of mana (715 with kings? assuming no Discipline talents). Takes 75 seconds for 1mp5 = 1 int.
Wow. Is there even going to be a point for mp5 anymore? lol. Seems like a bloated stat in terms of the item budget.
I am going with Healing Power and Draenic Wisdom, all that regen is probably going to be overkill.
Absolutely agree. If having x total regen with mana pots gets you through your guild's most mana-demanding fight, any gems or gear stats you spend on regen beyond that are a complete waste. In contrast, more +heal, crit etc. always increases your HPS. For that reason trying to establish a formula equating +heal and MP5 seems only of theoretical interest. But it is important to determine the relative strengths of the mana regen stats--MP5 and Spirit (and Int in 2.4)--so you can get to the regen level you need using minimum item budget.
Exactly, and that's what the spreadsheet's for; no sense doing the math again when it's all been done and looked at by hundreds of people to catch any mistakes.
I just plug in my typical raid gear (the stuff that I wear if I just hit my pve healing gearset and don't change anything) and find out that int is worth .6 mp5 and spirit .5 mp5, for say a 6 minute fight, and spirit = .4 healing. Then when I compare two things in my head, I convert all the stats to stam/regen/healing. This isn't exact since int doesn't scale linearly, but it doesn't really matter; few items are close enough that it's going to matter. If they are, I can just check a speadsheet again.
Terribly disturbed that Distilled Wisdom is now superior to Mighty Restoration. 65 int is still a good chunk of mana (715 with kings? assuming no Discipline talents). Takes 75 seconds for 1mp5 = 1 int.
Wow. Is there even going to be a point for mp5 anymore? lol. Seems like a bloated stat in terms of the item budget.
mp5 costs 2.5 as much as spirit on the item budget. But at 20% time oo5sr, you need only 384 = (1/(.046336*.44*2.5))^2 int to have the same regen. It's certainly still not useless though; in the same way that strength isn't useless on rogue gear.
If CoH was raid-wide and picked the X number of lowest HP targets or something like that, we might have a winner...but as it's group-limited, it is functionally quite limited in application on many fights. Melee groups are the obvious choices, especially if it's periodic or low damage--however, more often than not, CoH just heals too slowly to save people from spike damage. Chain Heal has a lot of advantages compared, and is generally better for any fights where you can't rely on people being clumped up and taking roughly equal amounts of damage.
I still like having it, but all in all, I think I would live well enough without it if needed. DS is a great buff.
(Ironically enough, the only time I seem to be able to keep up with good Chain Heal spamming Shaman is either by spamming the crap out of GH or PoH... Despite being a handy tool, CoH just isn't generally applicable enough to keep up with the wonders of Brain Heal. )
This just means that you are not using CoH effectively.
Most people who have come late to using CoH cannot really appreciate its power.
CoH though it may not be mana quite as mana efficient is still a priests fastest tool for brining up the health of 3+ people. In any case where you would use FH and PoM to keep 3 ppl alive, you can you use PoM/CoH, with much better results. Chain heal is great due to the smart targeting, but PoM/CoH is just as effective though a lot less mana efficient for keeping 3 ppl taking constant damage simultaneously because PoM adds the extra bit of smart targeting. When you come to healing 4 or more targets simultaneously, CoH/PoM is an incredibly powerfull tool probably more powerfull than CH
CoH may not be essential but it DOES make a difference. I have tried healing variations on many fights to find the most effective combination and I often find that CoH really makes a difference. Its not uncommon for me to put out 400k of healing over a 6 minute fight and then by adding in a certain measure of CoH push that up to 450-500k.
Let me give you a simple example:
3 people take 2k damage every 3 seconds.
CoH 1k per target
gheal7 5.4k per target
PoM 1.8k per target
This takes into account 5% reduced mana cost of gheal due to clearcasting.
With CoH a priest can compete with a shaman for burst HPS even on just 3 ppl. Without CoH a priest simply cannot compete. And because of the uniform healing nature CoH is significantly better and can allow you to save 3 ppl through a much higher burst. For example if the pulse is 3k damage over 3 seconds, with CoH/PoM you can keep 3 ppl alive for 10 seconds, while with gheal you will certainly lose 2 after 10 seconds. Flash heal in this senario is totally useless. You cant even save 2 out of the 3 ppl for 10 seconds, not even with pom. This is of course counterintuitive. Why is CoH better. The answer is because its instant and the heal is spread evenly. That means you don't have the large delay associated with spell cast. That means for short bursts, up to 15-20 seconds CoH/PoM simply outperforms every other spell a priest has on 3+ ppl.
The short range of CoH is in fact not so short. 21yard RADIUS, is a 42 yard DIAMETER. With CoH you can heal people that are BEYOND gheal range (do it all the time on void reaver). The idea that the range of CoH is short is nonsense. Its extremely rare that a group have to spread outside a 21yard radius circle. Even when people are very spread out (e.g. lurker) I still hit 3-4 ppl per group with CoH. I have often compared my performance to other priests in our raids, using recount and I can see that the use of CoH is senarios where they use gheal gives me a significant edge.
Most priests don't have a feel for the radius or for the utility of CoH in 3-4 ppl senarios. Before the last patch CoH was not good enough for 3ppl, but after the last patch it is.
The instant you hit 2k healing, CoH becomes an extremely powerfull tool, which can be used even in encounters where people think its worthless. There are very few boss encounters I have been in, that CoH cannot be used to great effect, from karazhan all the way to SSC/TK.
CoH overall is the better spell to have. 2.4, will give priests even more mana regeneration and will allow us to itemise more from healing as well benefit more from the existing consumables, more importantly when people go around with 1500 spell damage, 30 more is not going to make any difference whatsoever, its less than 1% more spell damage and that is on only a small part of the raid. The 20mp5, when healers approach 400mp5, is also too small to count when one considers the loss of CoH. Use spirit scrolls instead.
Morogrim: CoH is uber powerfull here. The threat-limiting is pure nonsense. Healing threat is divided over every mob around, while AoE damage is not. Since we tank/AoE the mulroks down, What I do on morogrim is as soon as the mulroks come in I PoM someone and press fade. I begin channeling PoH as soon as I see the mulroks being engaged, after the PoH lands I lash out with CoH. I have never once aggroed a mulrok and I easily outheal our resto shamans by a large margin. Even in wipes DPS/OT deaths allowed me to attract mulroks I still manage to heal through several hits, by just spamming PoM/CoH on myself, due to no pushback.
Well I went and had a look at chain heal. With 2k healing I dont think its possible to get more than 3400 (including crit) from chain heal. So I am using 3400/1700/850. Someone can correct me if I am wrong and forgot something.
This just means that you are not using CoH effectively.
Most people who have come late to using CoH cannot really appreciate its power.
CoH though it may not be mana quite as mana efficient is still a priests fastest tool for brining up the health of 3+ people. In any case where you would use FH and PoM to keep 3 ppl alive, you can you use PoM/CoH, with much better results. Chain heal is great due to the smart targeting, but PoM/CoH is just as effective though a lot less mana efficient for keeping 3 ppl taking constant damage simultaneously because PoM adds the extra bit of smart targeting. When you come to healing 4 or more targets simultaneously, CoH/PoM is an incredibly powerfull tool probably more powerfull than CH
Thank you Havoc finally someone who sees the same power in CoH that I see.
I'll be honest here, I rarely use Greater Heal anymore unless I am specifically assigned to heal a Main Tank (which is not that often due to me being CoH spec). Our raid leaders are very smart with positioning and I can always CoH four of the 5 groups (minus the MT group). Sure there are fights that it is less than favorable, but nearly all of BT it is, most of Hyjal it is, and I am sure in Sunwell the encounters will call for it.
If you are using mouseover macros for multiple ranks of CoH (I currently use 1 and max for different situations). You can see both extreme efficiency using rank 1 and high HPS output using rank 5. If we look at the other healers we see strengths, and the Priest strength (in my opinion) is being able to use a multitude of different type of heals depending on what the situation calls for.
I CoH whenever a group has 3 or more people take about 800 damage or more, no reason not to keep them topped up.
Interested to see where you guys/gals put Haste, now that it lowers the GCD. Haven't seen anything yet, would think with the lowering of the GCD, it would be worth picking up.
I imagine most people will be happy with the amount of haste that they get naturally on gear that is otherwise best in slot; I don't see the value in going out of one's way to stack it, but I also don't know anything about most of the SW fights so there may be some value to it.
Personally, I will take haste as it comes. I do not think that I'll be specifically going for haste. Sure the more haste you have the higher HPS can have, but also at a higher amount of mana spent per minute etc.
You would need high amounts of regen to combat high amounts of haste. Take some of the current good haste items in the game, namely the two rings [Blessed Band of Karabor] and [Signet of the Quiet Forest], both are very good items and I wouldn't think about not using them due to haste.
However, a cloak like the one from Illidan [Shroud of the Highborne] I would not take just because of the haste.
I think a lot of it comes down to personal preference, however 2.0 sec greater heals would be neat!
Havoc, I think you may be overstating the value of CoH quite a bit for the majority of fights. While you may make some correct points from a pure HP/s point of view, the reality is that consistantly meeting the criteria of:
a) Everyone you want to heal is in the same group
b) Someone outside the target group doesn't need healing more
c) The group is close enough together to all be affected
d) You don't want to piss away mana when you don't need to piss away mana
These criteria are often NOT met. Sure, there are are fair number of places where CoH can be used effectively, but nearly exclusively using it? In most cases the only thing you are doing there is padding healing meters--not healing effectively. When I say "healing effectively", of course, I mean "keeping people alive as best as possible."
The fact is, CoH will often not "save" people from dying--which, of course, is a big problem. Say you have a group with 4 people at 80% HP and 1 person at 10% HP. Sure, CoH would be uber HP/s and HPM...it would also make you look really good on healing meters. However, if all you use is CoH you're basically toying with the life of the guy at 10% HP. Chances are on most fights that he could easily die before CoH ticks him up at its measly 650-700 single-target HPS.
Additionally, any scenario where one would be using CoH a lot means heavy AoE damage. If you are NOT using PoM in this situation, you are losing out horribly, as you will most likely get all 5 ticks from it, or at least 4. Assuming 5 ticks, PoM does around 6.7k HPS/c (global cooldown), whereas CoH is only a max of 3.4k HPS on the same GCD. There is pretty much no reason in any AoE scenario for a Priest not to be using PoM on every 10s cooldown.
CoH is a good tool--and I made a list of the fights where I have found it to be exceptionally useful a page or two back--but it's certainly not an end-all-be-all. While CoH spamming may result in a favorable position on SWS/WWS, I don't really feel that exclusive (or mostly exclusive) use of CoH is anywhere near where the strength of Priest healing is. If a Priest in my raid were to only be spamming CoH, I would tell them to start thinking about what heals they pick in future raids or I would probably just replace them with a Shaman--Chain Heal -is- better in the majority of situations simply due to targeting prioritization and group-agnostic targeting.
On many "hectic" damage fights, the damage intake is non-uniform, scattered, and dangerous. For instance, one could probably use CoH to own the meters on Teron, Naj'entus, or Mother--but you're risking a LOT of deaths by doing so. People need large heals, fast heals, and to be topped off. They can't sit around waiting for CoH's 700 HP/s to heal them up before the next damage spike. I almost always top the meters on Naj'entus, for instance, and yet only use CoH for around 10% of my healing--the rest being a mix of GH, PoH, and FH (in that order).
CoH is -great- for periodic damage (e.g. Void Reaver Pounding) where spike death is not a threat, but when spike death IS a threat, one has to start thinking about shifting over to GH/FH target triage with PoM bounces and sneaking in CoH in 'safe' moments instead of just spamming CoH.
You talk about the disadvantage of group healing but in most BT and some MH fights, everyone in the raids loses dmg so it happens quite often that you got multiple targets in a specific group that you can heal up with CoH.
Depends highly on the fight but if Havoc is as he says always raid healer, this is the most efficient way to heal those groups up. And I very well think he was talking about predictable damage to heal up, not someone who is close to dying. For that I'd pom and focus on that target if he is due to losing more any second of course.
I also tend to use some renew for that though.
I find it a powerful tool as well now I'm venturing through BT. And it will be even more when we will be able to stack more + healing in the next patch.
On na'jentus I don't use it much either though. If I have the mana to, I will but it's not mana efficient enough to use there. Rather use two POH, some renew and flash if I need to. But what you say about 700 hp, I think you always spam it at least 2 times on a group when they lost some health. It's instant and faster. Gheals are pretty useless at such fights, it takes too long and by then they have already lost some health again.
CoH is by far the best raid healing spell out there in most fights, especially if you're healing a group with hunters and their pets. If you have the mace from Illidan, it will also proc on everyone below 50% hp.
In Sunwell I've had my CoH frequently healing for a total of 8500hp-9000hp per cast (~1100hp on 5 players and 2 pets + ~200 heal from the weapon proc), and remember I can do two CoH casts per CH/PoH cast.
As an IDS priest I do get pangs of envy when I see my fellow priests power up the heal metres thanks to CoH. Not being able to readily see the benefits of IDS as a whole, I think, contributes to this feeling of inadequacy. As my guild venture's further into the 25 man content I do ponder transferring. I do think it's a preference thing though. I can get over not being number 1 healer on EVERY boss. At the moment, pre Hyjal, I do think having that extra spirit is a boon, and one I'd miss were I to spec out.
Anyway, to add further fuel to the debate, what do you guys think of the Vial of the Sunwell trinket proposed for 2.4? A CoH or IDS trinket? Or one purely relegated for the other healing classes like the Pendant of the Violet Eye? It seems pretty imba for pvp at least...
You talk about the disadvantage of group healing but in most BT and some MH fights, everyone in the raids loses dmg so it happens quite often that you got multiple targets in a specific group that you can heal up with CoH.
Depends highly on the fight but if Havoc is as he says always raid healer, this is the most efficient way to heal those groups up. And I very well think he was talking about predictable damage to heal up, not someone who is close to dying. For that I'd pom and focus on that target if he is due to losing more any second of course.
I also tend to use some renew for that though.
I find it a powerful tool as well now I'm venturing through BT. And it will be even more when we will be able to stack more + healing in the next patch.
On na'jentus I don't use it much either though. If I have the mana to, I will but it's not mana efficient enough to use there. Rather use two POH, some renew and flash if I need to. But what you say about 700 hp, I think you always spam it at least 2 times on a group when they lost some health. It's instant and faster. Gheals are pretty useless at such fights, it takes too long and by then they have already lost some health again.
I find CoH extremely useful for helping the raid recover from tidal burst. I'll prayer of heal my group twice (the first I will pre-cast if I am not throwing a spine), followed by a CoH, this will have my group topped up completely within 5-6 seconds of the tidal burst. At this point, CoH is the best option we have for assisting the rest of the raid. After the raid is topped up, raid damage is fairly trivial, and is best served by downranked gheals/prom/binding heal.
On Najentus, my WWS healing breakdown typically looks like:
40% CoH
20% PoH
20% GH
10% BH
With the rest being attributed to renew and flash heal. (WWS breakdown does not account for prom)
I find CoH extremely useful for helping the raid recover from tidal burst. I'll prayer of heal my group twice (the first I will pre-cast if I am not throwing a spine), followed by a CoH, this will have my group topped up completely within 5-6 seconds of the tidal burst. At this point, CoH is the best option we have for assisting the rest of the raid. After the raid is topped up, raid damage is fairly trivial, and is best served by downranked gheals/prom/binding heal.
On Najentus, my WWS healing breakdown typically looks like:
40% CoH
20% PoH
20% GH
10% BH
With the rest being attributed to renew and flash heal. (WWS breakdown does not account for prom)
A tip for you is to use renew more if your numbers are like that. I often see priests lacking the understanding of how to use binding heal and renew, two of our very best spells.
In practice, I find that my renews have terrible efficiency (4-5HPM) from my renewed target getting topped off. This isn't necessarily a bad thing though, but I won't allocate much mana on renew unless there is a particular advatage to using it.
I try to keep renew on the tank (especially on encounters with silences like Azgalor, Gruul, Bear Boss), or fights with lots of mobility (like Archimonde), but other than that, I find my other options far more effective.
Looking over last nights WWS parse, my healing breakdown (not including prom or pw:s), looks like:
45% CoH
26% GH
11% Renew
10% FH
3% BH
1% PoH
This is my accumulated breakdown over the course of a night, including trash, for the following encounters:
Najentus, Supremus, Akama, Bloodboil, RoS, Winterchill, Anetheron, Kaz'rogal.
A tip for you is to use renew more if your numbers are like that. I often see priests lacking the understanding of how to use binding heal and renew, two of our very best spells.
Renew is great in certain situations and subpar in others. I find it very useful for solo, small group, heroic, and even 10 mans. When it comes to raiding, aside from situations that call for HoT's (ie. Maexxna pre-TBC, RoS cast on MT right before you run to 0/0 for a mana pool etc.) I find Renew to be lack luster, and more of a habitual casting than anything else.
HoT's are for druids, and MT's in my opinion. Though Renew is very efficient if it is allowed to heal in its entirety, it is often not the case. And in today's raid game, I cannot simply wait for a guildie of mine to be topped up in 15 seconds, they need the healing now. Not to mention chain heal bounces which you cannot control.
Binding heal is phenomenal, especially with the buff to it a while back when they reduced the mana cost. I would love to see more talents for Binding Heal (no ideas currently but anything extra would be cool). Each time you take damage, you should look to binding heal.
Personally, I find that multi-target healing is the way to go in a raiding environment. Circle of Healing, Binding Heal, Prayer of Mending (sexy), Prayer of Healing (Only if you do not have CoH), just cannot compete with our old world spells.
Just a quick look at my last web stats, it including kills of Illidan, Rage, Anatheron, Kazrogal was as follows:
I would worry less about the efficiency of of renew and more about it's extreme healing power. It is a multitarget heal, you put it on one person that gets healing while you heal someone else. With a 1.5 second GCD and 15 second duration that's 10 people healed at the same time. It's not nice to your mana bar but it heals for a lot if the fight allows/needs it.
I'm curious how in the world you manage to use more of Flash Heal than Greater Heal. I use it on certain spot healing assignments (Naj'entus and Gorefiend come to mind), but on a fight like Illidan where the healing goes 90% on tanks I can't imagine making Flash Heal work.
Personally, I happen to agree with Jayde's list of CoH-friendly fights from a couple of pages ago... it's great for a few specific fights, but just that: a few specific fights, not every single situation you face. The set of Chain Heal-friendly fights is a superset of CoH-friendly fights. Besides, we run shaman-heavy, and I respec every week for arenas (never mind that I'm bad at them, or maybe I just get on bad teams, or something), so I've never felt a dire need for it.
I'm curious how in the world you manage to use more of Flash Heal than Greater Heal. I use it on certain spot healing assignments (Naj'entus and Gorefiend come to mind), but on a fight like Illidan where the healing goes 90% on tanks I can't imagine making Flash Heal work.
Personally, I happen to agree with Jayde's list of CoH-friendly fights from a couple of pages ago... it's great for a few specific fights, but just that: a few specific fights, not every single situation you face. The set of Chain Heal-friendly fights is a superset of CoH-friendly fights. Besides, we run shaman-heavy, and I respec every week for arenas (never mind that I'm bad at them, or maybe I just get on bad teams, or something), so I've never felt a dire need for it.
Our usual raid setup (thanks to a Resto shammy discontinuing) we run myself (CoH Priest), 1 DS priest, 1 Resto Shammy, 2 Holy Pallies, 2 Resto Druids and sometimes a third priest (CoH).
I am consistently on FFA healing and Raid healing, we have our pally/druid combos on MT duty, while myself and the resto shaman heal the raid.
As for how I manage to cast more flash heals, well I use lower ranks of flash heal (a lot for trash, since its needed). On boss fights, I use whatever the situation calls for. I find it is more beneficial (since mana is not a problem) for me to continually cast lower ranks of faster spells (Flash/CoH/PoM) rather than Greater Heal or Renew, as those two spells do not generally get the full efficiency of the spell.
Renew is extremely useful I find too, I use it often. Even when I'm healing the raid I use it for predictable damage and when I know renew has enough time to tick and heal that person up, or of course when renew is enough to counter incoming damage. Not of course like someone stated above , to heal someone up and for it to take 15 seconds. You use it on targets that are on for example 50-60 %. It is also useful when there is a fight where some in the raid lose more health than others in a period of time and you can renew those and CoH the entire group.
And as Taldar stated, renew is also extremely useful for multi target healing.
I also use binding heal on najen'tus if at the last minute I would still lose health before a tidal burst but after the tidal burst when I have done my 2PoH I find it more mana efficient to put on a renew. Since the members will still take a 2k now and then its better than CoH there.
Concerning Sinndir, I think it highly depends on your healers. I was in a guild once where I felt I also had to flash heal to still get a heal through 'cos everyone was very high on their toes and I could hardly get a gheal through. While in others this is not the case, or you are in a healer heavy raid group. Well if he doesnt have mana issues I can't see the problem, though I wish I did not have mana problems that I could just cast flash heal away. Mana land.
Yep the sporadic, predictable damage is what Renew is for especially on raid members who aren't at risk of dying any time soon. Typically when an AOE ability goes off effecting ten or so people, unless it's very heavy damage (say reducing them to 40% or lower), I'll slap a renew on the low priority classes (hunters, locks etc). By time the raid healers getting around to topping them up each renew will have ticked for a good few seconds. OFC it's useless in such scenarios when you know more such burst AOE is around the corner. These are the times you need CoH, PoH etc. But otherwise if you know the guy isn't going to die in the next 15-20 seconds, I feel it's good buisness to slap a renew on them.
03/15/08, 4:39 PM
)
. It's instant and faster. Gheals are pretty useless at such fights, it takes too long and by then they have already lost some health again.
Similar Threads
