[top] (15.7*6.7)

Liths · 03/27/08, 3:15 AM

Originally Posted by Havoc12

What need could possibly possess the raid leader to spread a group outside a 21yard diamter circle. Do you realise how big this is? If two people stood at opposing edge of this circle they would be outside gheal range. More importantly you can heal people up to 61 yards away from you with CoH. That is nearly the edge of vision! If your raid leader wants to use you for single targeting that is his choice of course, but there is zero reason why he can't fix groups so they are healable by CoH. Its simply personal choice.
CoH is amazing for certain fights and very usefull for many and usefull for most.

Let's not get carried away here, untalanted CoH has a diameter of 30 yard, 36 with talents. You're probably confusing diameter with radius and are counting on a 40% increase from talents instead of the actual 20%. That means you can under optimal circumstances heal people 58 yards from you. Those optimal circumstances aren't something I'd count on in a real raid though.

Sinndir · 03/27/08, 4:03 AM

Originally Posted by dbresq

To sum up CH vs CoH - I feel if 3-5 people need topping up, CoH will get the job done a lot more quickly and efficiently then CH. There are easily more fights where and equal amount of priests casting CoH will keep up a raid that shamans spamming CH won't be able to. However, I think there are a few situations that exist where neither CoH nor CH are sufficient on their own to keep the raid up and they need to compliment each other.

I think this best sums it up. No one healing class can do everything otherwise we would bring 6-8 of that healer, instead you want a mix. And currently CoH is one helluva powerful tool

Vihermaali · 03/27/08, 5:48 AM

Last night on Kalecgos convinced me of two things.

1)Raid healing without CoH is pain. (3 holy priests, 3 coh priests --> I specced into improved divine spirit)
2)I need more spellhaste.

Well, since we were pretty tightly grouped I could do my job with prayer of healing too. That's not usually the problem. But gods be merficul if you get the +100% cast time -debuff. 6 second prayer of healings, 6 second greater heals and 3 second flash heals are fun when everyone you should heal are taking 5-6k dmg ever 10 secs. Oh, I missed CoH. Not only the lack of instants, but so many targets to heal in general made me want some spellhaste. Only problem is finding it while keeping rest of the stats.

Yea, I could do it without CoH but it was damn painful. Not only so many targets, but they were taking hits so hard that any kind of stopcasting was almost impossible. I did manage to get a 80% "while in 5sec rule" time by some miracle. It felt like 100%. Extra 10-20% haste would definately help there. A lot.

Havoc12 · 03/27/08, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Liths

Let's not get carried away here, untalanted CoH has a diameter of 30 yard, 36 with talents. You're probably confusing diameter with radius and are counting on a 40% increase from talents instead of the actual 20%. That means you can under optimal circumstances heal people 58 yards from you. Those optimal circumstances aren't something I'd count on in a real raid though.

Yes you are right I meant radious and I was under the impression that CoH was 18 yards untalented. Maybe because I always had the range talent. 18 yards is a significantly smaller circle, but even 58 yards max range is pretty big. Even 50 yards is a pretty big deal.

Sinndir · 03/27/08, 12:49 PM

After doing some calculations and making a big post about it on our guild forums, I have come to be really curious about how good spell haste rating is for our healing output (HPS) as a circle of healing priest. With my current gear, I have found that:

So in summary to gain 1 HPS I need the following:
+1 HPS = 1.4 +heal = 0.52 spell haste
1 +heal = +0.71 HPS
1 spell haste = +1.92 HPS

To find out how much +heal spell haste is worth, by this HPS formula:
1 spell haste = 2.7 +heal

The inverse to find out how much spell hast +heal is worth I use this:
1 +heal = 0.37 spell haste

And to me, if I have the choice in a yellow socket to gem for either spell haste or healing/int. It is shown as such:
(Gem choices) - +10 spell haste, +11 heal +5 int (the int is very negligible for me if almost nothing to an output increase)

+10 spell haste = 27 +heal
+11 healing = 4.07 haste rating

Please let me hear your thoughts on spell haste rating.

Vihermaali · 03/27/08, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

Please let me hear your thoughts on spell haste rating.

The difficult part about spellhaste is variety of "The window of heal". Basically what I mean is, it doesn't matter if your gheal heals for 100k hp / cast if it's not fast enough to land before target dies. Converting this to pure math is difficult, since it is so random.

Liths · 03/27/08, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

After doing some calculations and making a big post about it on our guild forums, I have come to be really curious about how good spell haste rating is for our healing output (HPS) as a circle of healing priest. With my current gear, I have found that:

Please let me hear your thoughts on spell haste rating.

Post your full calculations, in terms of raw hps I get 1.6 heal = 1 spell haste rating in terms of raw hps if your average CoH hits for 1000.

Sinndir · 03/28/08, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Liths

Post your full calculations, in terms of raw hps I get 1.6 heal = 1 spell haste rating in terms of raw hps if your average CoH hits for 1000.

Sorry for the incoming length, this was made after finishing a long term assignment real quick in the wee hours of the morning. Math could definitely be off. Please correct if you see.

Good thing I'm not a druid!

Anywho after getting a taste of the new heroism (reduces global cooldowns) on RoS last night I felt the need for speed. This led me to some thinking, which inevitably kept me up way too late last night. So here is what I figure.

Circle of Healing Rank 5
450 Mana 40 yd range
Instant cast
Heals friendly target and that target's party members within 15 yards of the target for 409 to 451.

Circle of Healing gains 21.4% of my +healing

***PLEASE NOT CALCULATIONS ARE UNBUFFED ALL INCREASE WITH RAID BUFFS***

Lucky for me unbuffed I have 1800 exact. Now I also have a talent that increases the base amount of my healing spell by 10% So:

Circle of Heal Average = [(min + max)*1.1]/2
= [(409+451)*1.1]/2 = 473 average

Then I apply my +healing so:
CoH Average = 473 + (1800*.214) = 858.2

So I am running around healing a group for 858.2*X number of people it hits. And since we live in a perfect world it is always going to hit 5 with zero overheal and no crits (I'll get to spell crit later).

So 858.2*5 = 4291 Health for 405 Mana (thanks to mental agility -10% cost)

CoH = 10.6 Health Per Mana, so it is efficient but who cares with Priests new regen. I want more HPS to compete with high raid damage. Now looking at the gearing issues my immediate thought is this:

HPS (Health Per Second) = Health/Cast Time

HPS CoH = 4291 Health / 1.5 sec (Global Cooldown)
HPS CoH = 2861 HPS currently

Looking at haste to increase HPS I will show a scaling factor of -0.1 seconds from the global cooldown to see the increase of HPS via haste.

HPS CoH @ 1.4 sec = 3065 HPS (Gain of 204 HPS)
HPS CoH @ 1.3 sec = 3301 HPS (Gain of 236 HPS)
HPS CoH @ 1.2 sec = 3576 HPS (Gain of 275 HPS)
HPS CoH @ 1.1 sec = 3901 HPS (Gain of 325 HPS)
HPS CoH @ 1.0 sec = 4291 HPS (Gain of 390 HPS)

So not only does haste increase HPS but it increase it more with the higher amount of haste you get.

Now I'm going to look at getting a 204 HPS gain with zero haste rating but by adding +heal.

HPS CoH @ 1.5 sec = 3065 HPS (setting it to the HPS @1.4 sec to compare)
3065 = X/1.5 (Solve for X) (Then solve for Y, health per target per cast)
X = 3065*1.5 = 4597.5 Health divided by the number of group members hit

Y = 4597.5/5 = 919.5 Health healed per target

I would need to go from 858.2 to 919.5 Health healed per target, a gain of 61.3 Health.

To add 61.3 Health to one target with the coefficient 21.4% I would need:

Health / Coefficient = +healing needed to gain that health

(61.3)/(0.214) = 286 +healing

So 286+ heal is needed to gain 204 HPS, and the amount of +heal needed to gain 1 HPS = 1.4 +heal or 1 +heal = 0.71 HPS

Now to find the value of 1 spell haste rating we equate:
1% haste = 15.7 rating (according to Basilia so I'm taking it as truth)
so 1 haste rating = 0.064%

A 1.5 sec global cooldown to a 1.4 sec global cooldown is a 0.1 sec increase:
0.1/1.5 = 0.067 or 6.7% increase

Amount of haste rating to get 6.7% increase is:

[top] (15.7*6.7)

105.2 rating

So 105.2 spell haste rating is needed to gain 204 HPS, and the amount of spell haste rating needed to gain 1 HPS = 0.52 spell haste rating and the same is said for 1 spell haste rating = 1.92 HPS.

So in summary to gain 1 HPS I need the following:
+1 HPS = 1.4 +heal = 0.52 spell haste
1 +heal = +0.71 HPS
1 spell haste = +1.92 HPS

To find out how much +heal spell haste is worth, by this HPS formula:
1 spell haste = 2.7 +heal

The inverse to find out how much spell hast +heal is worth I use this:
1 +heal = 0.37 spell haste

And to me, if I have the choice in a yellow socket to gem for either spell haste or healing/int. It is shown as such:
(Gem choices) - +10 spell haste, +11 heal +5 int (the int is very negligible if almost nothing to a output increase)

+10 spell haste = 27 +heal
+11 healing = 4.07 haste rating

And thus clearly for our yellow slots +haste is the best, and even for red slots where I would normally put a +22 healing gem however I don't like to put wrong gems in wrong sockets.

Any questions or errors in my math please say.

Starfire · 03/28/08, 2:32 AM

Originally Posted by constantius

[Flask of Distilled Wisdom]
vs
[Flask of Mighty Restoration]
vs
[Elixir of Healing Power] + [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom]

In 2.4 terms, given your raid-buffed stats of 600 intellect, 715 spirit, assuming a 10-minute fight, and IDS, for a priest:

#1: [Flask of Distilled Wisdom] : 23 Mp5 IO5SR, 56 Mp5 OO5SR

#2: [Flask of Mighty Restoration] : 25 Mp5 II5SR, 25 Mp5 OO5SR

#3: [Elixir of Healing Power] + [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom] : +62 Healing S&E, 23Mp5 IO5SR, 67 Mp5 OO5SR

#4: [Elixir of Mastery] + [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom] : +18 Healing S&E, 40 Mp5 IO5SR, 118 Mp5 OO5SR

Edited to add Mastery+Wisdom, some truly crazy regen happening there

2.4 Is live, should put this in the first post.

Liths · 03/28/08, 5:05 AM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

Sorry for the incoming length, this was made after finishing a long term assignment real quick in the wee hours of the morning. Math could definitely be off. Please correct if you see.

Okay, the two things I spot right away is that you haven't factored in spiritual healing when you value +heal and that you haven't calculated reduction in casting time correctly.

Including spiritual healing in the calculation would mean you need 260 healing to get 206hps (286/1.1)

You're calculating a reducting in casting time by 6.7%. 6.7% spell haste isn't a reducion in casting time by 6.7%, its a reduction in casting time by 6.3% (100/106.7). To get a reduction in casting time by 6.7% you need 7.2% spell haste (100/93.3).

That means you need 1.27 heal for 1 hp/s or 0.55 spell haste rating. 1 spell haste = 2.3 healing, for pure hps purposes. That fits pretty perfectly with my earlier calculations in this thread (that 1.6 figure was a really quick bit of napkin math, I probably messed something up). Remember that spell haste is of little value for spells like renew and pom though, CoH is almost never the only spell you're going to use. And I'm not so sure pure hp/s is ever the problem with the spell, but I'll agree with that the spell haste gem is looking rather attractive for the yellow slot.

Ariakis · 03/28/08, 8:51 AM

Just a quick question. In 2.3, I primarily focused on stacking Royal Nightseye and other healing/mp5 gems. With the new intellect-->spirit buff, would it be MORE beneficial to begin stacking nothing but spirit gems?

Murenius · 03/28/08, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ariakis

Just a quick question. In 2.3, I primarily focused on stacking Royal Nightseye and other healing/mp5 gems. With the new intellect-->spirit buff, would it be MORE beneficial to begin stacking nothing but spirit gems?

I've been asking myself the same thing. Previously, the mp5 rounding thing made Royal Nightseye superior, but now I've got the feeling it would be wise to look into stacking spirit and int. Does anyone have some hard mathematical facts about the new formula for regeneration? I'd do some operations research and try to break it down to some charts, if possible.

Vihermaali · 03/28/08, 9:54 AM

There is actually a thread about that in here:

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t21280-i...rycrafting_hq/

Originally Posted by constantius

There's a conversion which seems 99% accurate, computed by Kevan:
Regen_mp5 = 5*0.00932715221261 * sqrt(Int) * Spirit

Jayde · 03/28/08, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by dbresq

Echoing an early post, T6 fights allowed CoH to work for me as follows:
Najentus: Main heal.
Supermus: Not applicable unless people are retarded with volcanoes as a group.
Shade: Smite time.
Teron: Main heal.
RoS: Main heal.
Bloodboil: Main heal.
Mother: Main heal.
Council: See Supremus.
Illidan: Main Heal when cross healing to raid.

Rage: See Shade.
Anatheron: Melee only.
Kazrogal: Melee only, still main heal.
Azgalor: Situational, not main heal, not n/a either.
Archimonde: We don't exploit so it's a lot of healing done on the run, sees great use.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "main heal", but it seems to indicate using it as your primary source of healing. I just don't see it as being main heal optimal on a number of those fights.

Naj'entus, for instance--useful? Yes, of course. However, the raid is naturally going to be spread to avoid spine chaining therefore the chance of 3 people in the same group getting individual spines at the same time is actually quite low. Why waste time waiting for that when you could just heal people up with FH/GH and be just as efficienct? The melee group is the only group that will be consistantly damaged as a group. It is useful indeed, but I'm not sure I would call it "main heal"--as PoH/GH/FH seem just as applicable in general -unless- you are assigned to the melee group.

Teron, likewise... the damage on this fight is very random and irregular. For a large part of the fight--especially if your DPS is high and it isn't a long fight--the damage is almost always compartmentalized across random or semi-random groups. People with Crushing Shadows should always get healing priority if they spike down due to danger from a single Doom Blossom killing them at low HP, and debuffed people are rarely in the same group. Generally useful, but again.. don't see it as being any more useful than direct heals--especially for the first 50-60% of the fight.

Mother, using a 1-camp method the damage is also spread across multiple groups pretty randomly other than melee. Additionally, raid healers can pre-cast GHs on the knockback beams while mid-air before they take a damage spike and save a lot of healing time. I use CoH fairly often on this fight, but still split in usage with other heals quite easily.

Kaz'rogal only requires a single AoE healer for melee.. any healer will do, Chain Heal and CoH are just as good for this as the War Stomp damage is trivial and has a long cooldown. Same for melee on Doomguards on Azgalor, which is the only use for it on that fight. One AoE healer is sufficient.

Archimonde, we use a 4-camp method and it is thus useful on Air Bursts (twice in the air, once on the ground) but otherwise that's about the only use I can see. Other damage is usually very single-target oriented.

Anyway, I have never argued that CoH is useless. I use it quite often when applicable. I am typically #1 or #2 on healing meters, along with our best geared Resto Shaman. That said, I typically have CoH numbers around 15-20% of my total healing when all is said and done for a raid on WWS.

The fact is, though, is that even hitting 3 targets with CoH is not higher HP/s than GH7, in fact it's not even as much as GH6. And many situations as well, the healing of CoH is somewhat redundant and only contributes to overhealing. Using incoming heal trackers, if you see someone already has an incoming heal for their entire HP loss, it's really quite pointless spamming a fairly trivial (let's face it, 700 HP/s isn't a lot) patch heal when it's just going to cause another healer to overheal anyway. Great for healing meters, but not really a super-effective use of healing time from my perspective. Even then, 3 targets in the same group damaged at the same time within the same radius is not something that happens as often as one might theorycraft--in fact, in the recent reset I have been keeping my eye on it and really have not seen it happen more than I remembered. 4 targets (which would be actually higher HP/s than GH7) is even more rare. Furthermore, if your raid composition has multiple AoE healers--say 1-2 Resto Shaman and 2 CoH Priests, the practical useage of CoH will drop dramatically as AoE healing opportunities will not last very long or happen as often.

So, don't get me wrong. CoH is a good spell, I'm glad I have it. I obviously use it a fair bit--20% of my healing is not exactly trivial--but on the other hand I do think it's a bit overrated and feel that Priests that get into a rut of only standing there spamming CoH 90% of the time aren't healing as efficiently as they could otherwise from a raid healing perspective. Just my 2 cents, and I'm sure many will have different opinions--but GH is still one of the stongest suits of a Priest in my opinion as we are capable of dropping the biggest heals with the least impact to our mana efficiency compared to other healers, especially nowadays.

Sinndir · 03/28/08, 12:26 PM

Ya Liths I knew my haste calc was a bit off but I did calculate spiritual healing check here:

Circle of Heal Average = [(min + max)*1.1]/2
= [(409+451)*1.1]/2 = 473 average

The 1.1 is spiritual healing (10%), I went with a little more haste last night throughout hyjal/council/illidan. Enough to have my Gheal at 2.4 and my global cooldown just about to 1.4... I think 1.41 or 1.42 (flash heal cast time haha). I could tell the difference, also a heroism means easy mode for CoH just cranks up the output like crazy.

And I already re-socketed my only yellow slot for a +10 spell haste gem and love it.

Liths · 03/28/08, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sinndir

Ya Liths I knew my haste calc was a bit off but I did calculate spiritual healing check here:

Circle of Heal Average = [(min + max)*1.1]/2
= [(409+451)*1.1]/2 = 473 average

Spiritual Healing also affects the part you get from +healing though, not just the base heal.

Sinndir · 03/28/08, 1:27 PM

Are you sure, I was led to believe for the longest time it didn't... hmm

Sinndir · 03/28/08, 1:35 PM

Then you would be looking at a scaling factor with your +heal, although small with 2k+ heal only a bonus +200 heal which is only+40 to the minimum average of CoH.

Though it does make it more valuable it makes my values of +heal 10% too low, so just add a bit.

I'm certain the +10 spell haste is still better than the +11 healing 5 int gem.

Liths · 03/28/08, 1:46 PM

Very. Was changed around the release of TBC.

Sinndir · 03/28/08, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Murenius

Does anyone have some hard mathematical facts about the new formula for regeneration? I'd do some operations research and try to break it down to some charts, if possible.

I prefer this one over the one with crazy decimals!

SPI * Sqrt ( INT / 460)

Bendyr · 03/28/08, 4:48 PM

Has anyone modeled the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Restoration] proc for aldors and scryers? I'm a scryer, and I'm wondering if this is in any way better than my [Brooch of Nature's Mercy]?

Natasha · 03/28/08, 5:01 PM

Seems that I am needing fewer mana potions at my lower level of progression, 2/6 3/4 in T5 content. I used only one on Tuesdays raid. I dont know what I should be using this 2 min cooldown on now. Haste, Heroic, Destruction, Insane Str and Ironshield are the only 15 second type of boosts? Would any of you use a spell haste for 15 seconds or a 450 + healing 2% crit for 15 seconds if it exsisted in leiu of Super Mana Potions?

Jayde · 03/28/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bendyr

Has anyone modeled the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Restoration] proc for aldors and scryers? I'm a scryer, and I'm wondering if this is in any way better than my [Brooch of Nature's Mercy]?

Would heavily depend on the proc rate... since it's a scripted spell, it's difficult to figure this out from the item data. Haven't read of anyone testing it heavily yet. It would be pretty hard-pressed to beat the Brooch in raw healing though--but it may beat other Stamina-oriented neck items if the proc-rate is high enough.

The Scryer one would appear to possibly be a bit better--especially for CoH and/or low-rank heal spamming depending on the rate and if there is an internal cooldown or not.

Murenius · 03/28/08, 9:17 PM

Thanks for pointing me to the PTR int --> spi thread. I was using 2.4 as search term an that did not work out at all.

Havoc12 · 03/29/08, 2:01 PM

Here is a more general treament for Haste:

A = total amount (including crit) healed by a particular heal at a particular value of +healing
B = base cast time or GCD
c = 1/1570
T = converted cast time or GCD
S = spell haste rating
H = +healing additional to what you already have
k = constant converting +healing to actual healing for the particular spell

T = B/(1+cS)

HPS = (A+kH)/T = (A+kH)*(1+cS)/B

For H=0, S=S'

HPS' = A(1+cS')/B

To get HPS' by adding extra +healing and without haste you will need H=H'

HPS' = (A+kH')/B

Hence

A(1+cS')/B = (A+kH')/B ==> cS' = kH'/A ==> H'/S' = c*A/k.

In other words the value of haste in terms of +healing is dependent upon the A/k ratio

"A" depends on how much this particular spell heals at your current +healing.

"k" is a constant for each particular spell.

The obvious conclusion is that value of haste over +healing in terms of HPS increases the more +healing you have. There will be a certain value of +healing for each particular spell above which c*A/k will exceed the ratio of the +healing/haste rating itemvalue ratio meaning that from that point on to increase your HPS you are better off stacking haste instead of +healing.

The fact is, though, is that even hitting 3 targets with CoH is not higher HP/s than GH7, in fact it's not even as much as GH6. And many situations as well, the healing of CoH is somewhat redundant and only contributes to overhealing. Using incoming heal trackers, if you see someone already has an incoming heal for their entire HP loss, it's really quite pointless spamming a fairly trivial (let's face it, 700 HP/s isn't a lot) patch heal when it's just going to cause another healer to overheal anyway. Great for healing meters, but not really a super-effective use of healing time from my perspective. Even then, 3 targets in the same group damaged at the same time within the same radius is not something that happens as often as one might theorycraft--in fact, in the recent reset I have been keeping my eye on it and really have not seen it happen more than I remembered. 4 targets (which would be actually higher HP/s than GH7) is even more rare. Furthermore, if your raid composition has multiple AoE healers--say 1-2 Resto Shaman and 2 CoH Priests, the practical useage of CoH will drop dramatically as AoE healing opportunities will not last very long or happen as often.

You are missing the whole point. CoH has better HPS over both GH7 and GH6 because it is instant and that means you are getting one additional application of the spell within any window of opportunity. The extra GCD comes AFTER CoH has been used. The 1.5 seconds after you have healed the amount you needed is superfluous, as the emergency is over. The shorter the emergency window the greater the value of CoH.

When you want to heal 3+targets AS FAST AS POSSIBLE CoH is the best and most efficacious spell you have.