Elitist Jerks [Priest] Holy Raiding Compendium (2.3.x)

03/29/08, 3:57 PM   #976
Sinndir
Great Tiger

Night Elf Priest

Medivh
 A = total amount (including crit) healed by a particular heal at a particular value of +healing B = base cast time or GCD c = 1/1570 T = converted cast time or GCD S = spell haste rating H = +healing additional to what you already have k = constant converting +healing to actual healing for the particular spell
So A how do you calc including crit for CoH, and are you assuming 5 targets hit = total amount healed?

C = 1/1570 where does this come from?

T = converted GCD that means like what it is now compared to the actual GCD so like 1.4 or 0.1 (difference or actual new GCD?)

Other than that I understand it all pretty much.

03/29/08, 8:25 PM   #977
Lorthof
Glass Joe

Human Priest

Frostwolf (EU)
 So A how do you calc including crit for CoH, and are you assuming 5 targets hit = total amount healed?
As Havoc was mentioning A is not about CoH in particular but for any given spell benefitting from haste.

 C = 1/1570 where does this come from?
This is a conversion constant for (spell) haste rating. 15.76 spell haste rating is 1% spell haste.

 T = converted GCD that means like what it is now compared to the actual GCD so like 1.4 or 0.1 (difference or actual new GCD?)
T is the new hasted cast time. The base cast time B (or GCD on instant casts) is divided by (1+your haste rating * haste conversion constant). Given you have 1% haste (15.76 spell haste rating) a CoH cast will have a "hasted cast time" (GCD) T=1.5s/(1+15.76/1576)=1.5s/(1+1%)=1.5s/1.01=1.485s.

As a side note, I have updated my spreadsheet with most of the available 2.4 gear and some fancy new stuff. You can download it from:

V1.1 for Patch 2.4.

03/30/08, 5:58 AM   #978
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Sinndir So A how do you calc including crit for CoH, and are you assuming 5 targets hit = total amount healed? C = 1/1570 where does this come from?
Whether its one or 5 people it makes no difference for CoH. The value of haste compared to +healing is independent of the number of targets because all targets get healed with the same amount. So both A and k the conversion constant for +healing are simply the values for one target multiplied by the number and targets. So the A/k ratio stays the same regardless of the number of targets. As a result to make my life easy for multiple target spells I calculate it in per target ratio.

For spells like chain heal one has to calculate it for 1, 2 or 3 targets and calculate an average from the WWS stats.

[this bit is not correct]
The calculation however is not entirely correct for CoH, because what you really need to be looking with CoH is burst healing rather than sustained healing. CoH benefits more from haste because to cast n CoH you need n-1 GCDs. The benefit of Haste in senarios where you are bursting n<= 5 at a time is actually significantly greater due to the "free" CoH you get at the begining.
[/this bit is not correct]

 ==> Actually I am wrong. It would not change the Healing/haste ratio.

Last edited by Havoc12 : 04/01/08 at 7:29 AM.

03/30/08, 7:06 AM   #979
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Havoc12 You are missing the whole point. CoH has better HPS over both GH7 and GH6 because it is instant and that means you are getting one additional application of the spell within any window of opportunity. The extra GCD comes AFTER CoH has been used. The 1.5 seconds after you have healed the amount you needed is superfluous, as the emergency is over. The shorter the emergency window the greater the value of CoH. When you want to heal 3+targets AS FAST AS POSSIBLE CoH is the best and most efficacious spell you have.
To demonstrate this:

Spamming 4 CoH requires 3 GCDs or 4.5 seconds. That is 4k per person or 2667 HPS on 3 ppl. In constrast in this time you can only land 1 GH for 5.5k.

Even if someone is very low on health, they will get 2k in 1.5 seconds, 1k 1.5 seconds later and another 1k 1.5 seconds later. What more do you need to save an emergency. What kind of damage could someone be possibly taking that exceeds this.

The fact that afterwards you have to wait 1.5 seconds is of no significance, because you dont have to wait for 2.5 seconds WHILE your targets are taking damage.

If you have to spam 6 CoH, that takes 7.5 seconds and heals on 3 ppl for 18k. That is 2.4k HPS.

If you have to spam 8 CoH that takes 10.5 seconds and heals 24k. This is 2.3k HPS

CoH has higher burst healing than GH and FH. Much higher in fact. It also spreads the healing out so it does not cause single target healers on the same targets to overheal as much.

In any situation where you have 3+ people at risk from spike damage, the best spell you have is CoH.

If multiple people are constantly at risk from spike damage and you are spamming CoH 24/7 the benefit of burst HPS is of course lost, but if this is the case then its not possible that you only get 3 ppl from the same group to heal every time.

CoH is an incredibly useful tool in any encounter where multiple people in the raid take a big hit and are are then in risk from spike damage. In any encounter where shamans are handling a lot of the raid damage CoH is also your best spell to use on 3+ people because it synergies much better with chain heal than GH does.

If the damage is in part predictable you can do a fanstastic job by pre-channeling a rank 3 GH and then go into CoH/pom to maximise your burst healing. That is more effective and more efficient.

Its not rocket sience. You can heal these situations with GH or FH if it makes you feel safer. The fact that you feel safer however does not and cannot change the fact that GH and FH are less effective than CoH in such senarios. The healing meters show the difference and in this case the difference is significant. You are not saving more people by using gheal in such situations. You only think you do. If you look at the actual numbers you will see that by adding CoH at key moments you can do a better job at saving people, heal more and reduce the amount of healing burned into overheal. Your take on the relative value of GH vs CoH in 3+ target senarios is subjective. Its based on perceptions not numbers.

There are situations where gheal is your best spell and situations where CoH is your best spell. It is very rare that CoH does not find good use in any fight with high raid damage. Even if it accounts for less healing than GHeal or PoM, the fact that you have it helps you and if you are using it right it also raises both your healing output and your mana efficiency.

Last edited by Havoc12 : 03/30/08 at 7:13 AM.

03/31/08, 8:08 AM   #981
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Jayde I tend to disagree on the assertion that it leads to less overhealing. Most raids run with healers that use incoming heal monitors, and it's very easy to spread the load of direct healing without heavy overhealing issues. However, if a few targets are at moderately low health, chances are that the other raid healers will not wait for the 700 single-target HP/s to heal up 6-8k damage on a target and just drop a max-rank heal on them anyway. In essence, most of the healing you're doing there is going to be wasted since you're just causing someone else in the raid to overheal a few seconds later.
If someone has to cancel their heal because the indicator shows a big incoming heal started just before theirs, they have lost 1.5 seconds without doing anything. So incoming indicators do not alleviate the problem, if heals are started within 0.5 seconds of each other, which is very often the case. But lets look at the senario just mentioned:

8 k damage on a single person and 5k damage on two more:

3 CoH=> 3 seconds
1 Chain heal = 2.5 seconds.

3k per person in the group from CoH
3.5k +1.7k+850 from chain heal

6.5k heal to one person

4.7k to another

3850 to 3rd

The group is nearly full, in 3 seconds. Zero overhealing. You can let the shaman mop it up with another chain heal, while you recover the GCD, or you can fire another CoH and let the shamy go to other targets.

It takes more time to heal the same damage with chain heals or gheal/chain heal. So the delay before your next heal is rarely significant.

CoH is not that good for sustained use on 3 ppl. However in any senario where 3+ ppl in a group take sudden large damage or take simultaneous active damage for a short period of time CoH or CoH/pom respectively are the best spell you can use.

 Anyhow, I think it's probably best to leave this one to rest since there are obviously two sides of the coin. Most depends on raid makeup, in the end, as the majority of fights simply can't support too many AoE raid healers at the same time. Raid makeup with usually dictate what Priests do, as we are usually the most flexible of any healer in terms of assignment viability.
Yes shamans can do a good job chain healing and you can stick to single target healing letting them pick up the AoE healing burden and you are very right in saying that most fights cannot support too many AoE raid healers. While priests do not lose much by switching to single target healing, shamans lose a lot, so for cerrtain raid makeups its better to let them do the brunt of the AoE healing.

That does not negate the power of CoH.

Last edited by Havoc12 : 03/31/08 at 9:02 AM.

 04/01/08, 2:24 AM #982 hordminion Banned   Darktheif Blood Elf Rogue   Jaedenar 2.4 Update this to 2.4 pls.
 04/01/08, 5:30 AM #983 Sinndir Great Tiger     Sindir Night Elf Priest   Medivh Havoc, After redoing my calculations with the correct haste forumala, for CoH only I came up with the following numbers: 1 spell haste = 2.62 +heal 1 +heal = 0.382 spell haste +10 spell haste = 26.2 +heal +11 healing = 4.2 haste rating
04/01/08, 7:24 AM   #984
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Sinndir Havoc, After redoing my calculations with the correct haste forumala, for CoH only I came up with the following numbers: 1 spell haste = 2.62 +heal 1 +heal = 0.382 spell haste +10 spell haste = 26.2 +heal +11 healing = 4.2 haste rating
What base +healing? 2000?

With 2k healing and A=991, I come up with 1haste = 2.55+ heal

Last edited by Havoc12 : 04/01/08 at 7:32 AM.

 04/01/08, 12:13 PM #985 Sinndir Great Tiger     Sindir Night Elf Priest   Medivh 1794 base healing, I though haste becomes more beneficial at a certain point?
 04/01/08, 12:18 PM #986 Sinndir Great Tiger     Sindir Night Elf Priest   Medivh Can you show how you get an A that high? for +2000 healing I get an A of 944. Z = 2000 * .214 = 428 Z = Spiritual Healing coefficient L = +healing added to CoH min = 409 max = 451 CoH Average = [((min+L)+(max+L))/2]*Z = [((409+428)+(451+428))/2]*1.1 = [(837+879)/2]*1.1 = [858]*1.1 = 944
04/04/08, 12:51 PM   #987
Havoc12
King Hippo

Night Elf Priest

Silvermoon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Sinndir Can you show how you get an A that high? for +2000 healing I get an A of 944. Z = 2000 * .214 = 428 Z = Spiritual Healing coefficient L = +healing added to CoH min = 409 max = 451 CoH Average = [((min+L)+(max+L))/2]*Z = [((409+428)+(451+428))/2]*1.1 = [(837+879)/2]*1.1 = [858]*1.1 = 944
944+ crit = 944+955*0.1*0.5= 944+47.2 = 991.2

also I think you maybe underestimating k.

The 10% bonus from spiritual healing is applied after +healing is added so k in the haste equation for CoH = 0.214*1.1

 Elitist Jerks [Priest] Holy Raiding Compendium (2.3.x)