• Chicken

The only explanation I can come up with for those mechanics is that Judgement of the Crusader is a debuff on your target, and because of that gets calculated after Blizzard does the other stuff.

That is, the spell's damage first gets locally calculated on a player basis, and then based on the results that already exist we get the target's buffs/debuffs spell damage added. It would be interesting to test how this works with other spells, and if Dampen and Amplify Magic also use a formula like this. It might also just be an individual thing unique to consecration, though you'd wonder if other AoE effects like it would work the same way; I'm thinking in the direction of Flamestrike here mostly.

E.G. The actual formula would end up looking like this:

Damage Dealt = ( ( Base + ( Spell Damage * Coefficient * Level Penalty ) ) * Talents * Multiplier Buffs * Multiplier Debuffs ) + ( ( Target Spell Damage Taken Buffs + Debuffs ) * Coefficient )

Edit:

On the subject of buffs. I do think we have a few extra buffs a Warrior tank would not have. Righteous Fury and Holy Shield have equals in Defensive Stance and Shield Block, but we also use a Seal on top of that, and it wouldn't surprise me too much if some weird mystic buff voodoo goes on with Judgement refreshing, which might take up another extra buff slot. Reckoning and Redoubt also both cover extra buff slots we use; though depending on gear used that could be equalled through set bonus procs.

Buff slots are, as far as I know, limited to 32.

 

bellator

Chicken,

I forgot to mention i did do a brief test with SoR. The extra damage caused by JotC does get effected by multipliers (thus not to do with it being a debuff)

My initial thought is that the level modifier is attached to the spell damage coefficient and since spell damage gear is all schools and JotC is holy only, they forgot too attach this level modifier to holy damage. Would be interesting to test it out with the +holy damage cloak from Karazhan.

As for the % modifiers, that has me stumped. The SoR test shows it is not to do with debuffs or with the type of plus damage. My only though could be it is due to the calculation of consecration (being a DoT) and they have messed up somewhere with it

 

• Chicken

It could also be the consecration formula uses some unique mechanics and it was simply updated wrongly in comparison to everything else when they added the level-based penalty to it. Until 2.1 all ranks of Consecration got the full benefit from spell damage.

Anyway I have the +holy damage cloak from Karazhan so I can test out whether it's unique to Judgement of the Crusader or it's just a +holy damage thing with consecration.

 

bellator

Ah great my guess from the other tests would be the extra damage from the cloak isnt subject to level deranking and that its damage is effected by multipliers

 

• Chicken

Just tried it out on some level 68 Warp Chasers in Netherstorm.

First I tried it out with my tanking cloak; no spell damage. Consecration rank 6 hit for 117 per tick. Rank 1 hit for 34 per tick. With the Drape of the Righteous, Rank 6 became 122 damage per tick, while rank 1 got 37 damage per tick. It seems this is exclusive to Judgement of the Crusader.

I also tried out Judgement of the Crusader, as expected it always gave 23 extra damage per tick. Regardless of whether I was wearing the cloak or not.

 

Fiola

That's what I get for using someone else's numbers. X P

It was 68% over 12 seconds, and the buff to 15 seconds only increased duration, not DPS, so 85% is correct.


That brings the +dmg value for break even point to 1000~, though it's still ignoring the new instant damage SoV procs and Reckoning.


Can you go from "believe" to "confirmed"? = P

Sadly, I don't have as much free time to mess around on this PTR, but if I can get a long checklist of test items to look at, I might do some data collection over the weekend.


I can't really answer the "why", but I know there's no downrank penalty on JotC for Consecrate or JoC R1.


If I would venture a guess, there's a +dmg value on your character and a +dmg value for the mob (debuff - increased damage taken by up to XYZ) that are added for the coefficient calculation. The character +dmg value is re-calculated by some spell level penalty, but that penalty is not applied to the mob's +dmg value.


Does anyone know how amplify/dampen magic/Ferundicity (Ribbon of Sacrifice on use effect) affect downranked heals? That might shed some more light on this.



I'm not sure that JotC is unaffected by those buffs... But I'm not in a position to double check right now.


I think I should start a paladin spell mechanic thread... there's quite a few quirks worth documenting... (Has anyone looked at BoL downranking for 2.3 yet?)

 

bellator

[quote=Fiola;522719]That's what I get for using someone else's numbers. X P

It was 68% over 12 seconds, and the buff to 15 seconds only increased duration, not DPS, so 85% is correct.

Thats good to hear. Don't know if you've seen/used my ret dps model, but got one for threat per sec and the SoR/SoV crossover point according to that is bang on 1000 +dmg. When i get time will try to get it on this thread, but time a little short atm




With SoV and 1HS I think we can safely say confirmed. Can't test at the moment, but if you look at the discussion between Theras and myself with regards to SoV numbers, we had to factor in 1HWS in order for the numbers to work.


Does JoC R1 suffer downranking from normal +dmg (something i may have to change in the ret dps sheet)


Would be my best guess also after Chicken ruled out the possibility of the +dmg/holy difference


I do know that with JotC on a mob the tick of consecrate was not increased by 1.3 when AW was up, but the hit of SoR was. Some fubar consecrate damage mechanic if you ask me


Think that would be a great idea. There are so many oddities/inconsistencies/plain fubar mechanics i have come accross when trying to model dps/tps, would be great to get them all in one place. Bet you a few of them would make blizz developers think 'why the hell is it working like that'.

As for the BoL downranking, havent looked at it, but assumed it would be treated in a similar way to level downranking. I do know that it screws over HL low rank spam.

 

Strategia

Has anyone used a prot pally to gather up Solarian adds the same way you gather murlocs?

We tried several things but it seemed the adds just wouldn't pick the pally up initially, wouldn't stick to him for very long, or just plain ignored him. The only time I saw him get a majority of the adds the AOE'rs were already dead.

I had given all AOE and healers Salvation, we positioned a warlock to lifetap before a portal phase, and I positioned the raid such that all adds would have to run through consecrate ticks to reach the raid.

We were seeing the same behavior with the trash packs in her room. We started the pull by misdirecting the two adds to be tanked to a warrior, and trying the "heal for aggro" method and then consecrating to pick up the other mobs. They almost never stuck to the pally or even went to him in some cases.

I'm starting to think as good as a pally might be in this section of TK, some mechanic is preventing these mobs from sticing to him and encouraging the tactic of random, chaotic AOE.

 

bellator

With solarians adds, when they spawn they lock onto a "random" target and generate a certain amount of threat on that target (unlike murloc adds which spawn with 0 aggro). Thus it is far harder to gain aggro as you could on murlocs, which is why many use AOE taunt rotations.

 

Astinus

I fail to understand why cutting Reckoning from any Prot build. My raid tanking build consists of

Post 2.3 build

Is Spell Warding or One-Handed Weapon Specialization really worth losing the 4 extra attacks? I realize it is a 10% chance for Reckoning to proc. In my experience it seems to proc quite often. I often count on reckonings extra proc's to boost up my mana in times of need.

Another side effect is w/o reckoning our AOE soloing goes out the window.

I’m not against the change. I just need somebody to explain it to me. My math skills are not up to snuff.

 

Furiouso

I lost Reckoning a long time ago and haven't missed it at all. It only boosts threat from white damage and Seal of Righteousness procs, whereas 1h spec increases all damage done across the board. Combat Expertise and Precision will be generally the same amount of threat increase, plus you won't miss as much when initially building threat, which is really important.

I also don't miss it when AOE soloing. Supplicants are a joke still, and I can pull an entire room of Nethermine Flayers plus Ravagers still, and as long as I have the Figurine of the Colossus, it turns out well.

 

kalbear

One handed weapon spec is a 5% boost to all damage, straight up.
Reckoning is a doubling of sword damage (and SoR in theory) 10% of the time. Or 10% damage more

For 1hws to be better, the total damage a paladin does *1.05 needs to be greater than weapon+SoR * 1.10

I don't remember the exact amounts for threat by source, but I thought holy shield was 25% of threat, consecrate was something like 40%, and weapon/sor was about 30%. But let's figure it out.

1.05*all damage includes weapon + SoR too, so the extra damage that reckoning does over 1hws is 1.05 greater. So 1.05*weapon+SoR must be greater than total other damage * 1.05. In other words, the damage done from weapon +SoR must be at least as much as all other damage done by the paladin.

I don't believe that's the case, but I could be wrong.

 

galzohar

In order to compare recokoning to 1h spec you need to remember to take into account that righteous fury doesn't affect the white damage portion of the autoattack.

 

kalbear

Not exactly; for what I was doing, all I need to figure out is how much threat reckoning does relative to the other abilities of a paladin. Now, figuring out what the relative threat is has been done elsewhere; I'm just stating what the overall threat output of reckoning has to be compared to overtaking 1hws.

I'm less sold on the usefulness of the spell damage abilities compared to reckoning, but it really depends on the attack speed of the boss/mob hitting you, whether you need that improved threat, and what you'll be tanking. I suspect reckoning is more useful than spell warding but loses out on improved PoJ.

 

Fiola

Reckoning uptime is dependent on the # of times you're hit. Are you misreading the talent?


If you were to get hit, say, 8 times over 8 seconds, you'd have a 34% chance (90% ^ 8) not to trigger reckoning. That means the other 66% of the time, Reckoning would be active and adding 100% autoswing damage. 100% bonus damage 66% of the time averages to 66% average bonus autoswing damage.


In this case, you have the choice of 5% more overall damage, or 66% more autoswing damage. Which yields more damage? Which yields more threat? .


It's more complicated than that, but I'm pretty sure your premise is faulty.

 

Baconslicer

If you're getting hit 8 times in 8 seconds, you're in trouble anyway - Holy Shield just dropped and if the boss keeps attacking at that speed, you'll take one more hit for sure without crushing immunity, and probably a second due to lag.

Reckoning doesn't proc if you don't take damage, remember. Against the same boss, a paladin with an absurdly low 50% combined miss/dodge/parry chance has a (0.9)^4 = 66% chance of no procs. It'll be higher for a paladin with better avoidance.

So it's more like 34% more autoswing damage (and 34% more boss parries) versus 5% to all threat.

Is a 34% boost to white damage and SoR more than 5% of total threat? What about when tanking more than one mob?

 

Saki

Speaking of which, do we know if reckoning can proc off miss/dodge/parry/block? If it doesn't on some of it.. means the uptime of reckoning is much lower than we can expect. Also the fact that doubling your attacks will increase more chances of being parried...

 

◊ Oggie

Is this actually true?

I am certain that we get buff aggro of a nontrivial amount. I'm also certain I can rip aggro by abusing that fact and sealing/resealing repeatedly as they spawn, with everyone standing on top of me into my Cons. So if people are standing on top of me and not doing much of anything till I call aoe on, I can reliably get very good aggro on every mob.

And not to play backseat mod, and this isn't my thread- but shouldn't we do most Q&A in the MT thread and save this for stuff directly relivant to the OP? This thread is more of an abstract, we should probably do specific boss/encounter stuff over there.

 

• Snowy

I think it's quite fine to do Q&A in this thread -- the whole point of making threads like this is the OP is the summary of the knowledge gleaned within the thread. That way there can be 2000 posts, but you just have to look at the first one and maybe read the last page or two for what you need to know.

Having said that, Solarian's adds definitely spawn with aggro on randomly assigned targets, and it's a non-trivial amount. At least 1k at the minimum I'd say.

Benefactors' Bar, where you get free English lessons:

 

Baconslicer

They're the same as Curator's adds, then.

 

• Gromweld

Nice work on the Hyjal section, by the way. If I were to add one comment:

[Free Action Potion] make Abomination-filled packs easy as cake. The spike damage you receive is from the stuns they lay down, and this makes you immune to the stun for long enough to get the AoE cranking and the heals prepared for when the spike damage kicks in (after the pot wears off).

 

Dodo

I tank Solarian Adds with the raid standing just on my spot (I run over to Solarian in the non-add phase to hold up JoW). We have our mages spec arcane so they get nice aggro reduce on their spells and they start up firing them when the mobs stood 2 seconds in my consecrate (which they have to do because everyone (except tanks) stands in my position...).

Has not produced any problems for my raid at all. We only wipe, when someone fells asleep and misses the bomb...

 

Morganim