◊ Bryne

The tree is very bloated, and so much of it is situational. If respecs were free you'd see people swapping between talents like Anticipation, Ardent Defender, Reckoning, Spell Warding, BoK, the ret stuff etc, as the content you were doing that day dictated. It's better that you know the specific use and place for each of the talents and take what you need for the content you're tackling.

 

Mode

I'm looking for a general breakdown of protadin ability usage. e.g. On a boss, my white damage is about 40%, consecrate is 15%, seal of righteousness is 15%, judgement of righteousness is 5%, and misc other stuff for the last bit, while on trash it's <words words words>.

The reason is that we have a new protadin and I just want to know what his ability usage 'should' look like in an ideal world of spherical cows.

 

• Chicken

That's also the dilemma I've been facing on creating a good talent section. There's a total of 59 good talents for tanking in the Protection tree (Though I'll admit Improved Devotion Aura is arguable in it's usefulness compared to the rest), and an additional 5 to 11 in the Retribution tree (Talents aside of Deflection being open for argument). And of course, the tanking talents in the Retribution tree require you to spend 5 talent points on something that isn't extremely useful for tanking.

There's also some talent combinations that I don't have the time/knowledge to figure out. For example if it's more beneficial to drop one point out of One-Handed Weapon Specialization to take one point in Reckoning so it can at least proc.

There's also a few things which are really more up to your preference. Some of us find the 15% movement speed of Pursuit of Justice extremely valuable while others find it completely unneeded. Some of us like Improved Judgement for the cooldown reduction, while others would argue that due to the 10 second cooldown on Holy Shield you get no real threat benefit from the talent. Some of us wouldn't want to be without the ability to cast Blessing of Kings, others think it's a waste of talent point. Were it not for the fact that you probably want full Ardent Defender, Improved Holy Shield and Combat Expertise, we'd also see a lot of contemplating on whether having a pulling tool like Avenger's Shield beats the (nearly) 10% extra threat of having Sanctity Aura.

I could most likely write a reasonable talent section, but I simply lack the knowledge to cover all the subtleties.

buff /bʌf/ Pronunciation[buhf]
–verb (used with object)
- to reduce or deaden the force of

 

◊ Oggie

Well, my breakdown looked something like:
That's on Gorefiend (undead fight), using a fair amount of +damage (600ish?), so those numbers probably vary a lot but WWS has gone back to being 'unfriendly' so I can't really look too much deeper.

As for the whole resist set, my FR resist helm is simply a plate green I picked up off the AH, and have never seen the point in investing enough gold to pick up the blue one for more-or-less 5 stamina upgrade (I think, I did the calculations once and then dropped it because it really didn't seem worth it). I struggled pretty hard for uncrittablity and ended up in a suit so barely uncrittable that I actually need the 10 from the flask to put me over.

Also, possibly just a first impression but ye gods do I like 4p T6.

 

Antarius

To borrow from the Maintankadin forums:
Maintankadin :: View topic - Tankadin core talent spec

5/5 Ardent Defender and 5/5 Anticipation are both considered "mandatory talents".

 

Cathela

I've been at 4/5 Anticipation for awhile now, even for Flame tanking on Illidan. If I had a 62nd point, that's where it would go, but there's nothing in my current spec I'd drop for it.

EDIT: On a general note, it really is a matter of what gear you have and what you're expected to do in raids. It would be less of an issue if the tree weren't so bloated, but as it is a prot paladin progressing through Kara->Gruul/Mag->T5->T6 can expect to respec a few times in order to be "optimal" for different stages of progression.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Russta

I'll preface this by saying that I've never played a Protection Paladin and my only experience with the class at all has been as Retribution up to level 44.

Anyway, this week I will be starting over again on EU servers as a Paladin with the aim of switching to Protection around 58-60 and going full time as it from then on. From having absolutely no idea what is expected of a Protection Paladin and very little idea of the mechanics that make it work, I've now read through all 48 pages of this thread and am more than confident of starting one and holding my own. This is a truly excellent compendium of information and everyone who contributed to it should be proud.

With that out of the way, the one question I have left is what should I do as my trade skills?

I'm pretty set on doing Herbalism as I've always felt it to be a great, stress-free way to make gold. The obvious one that links with that is Alchemy but I was initially reluctant to pick it up even though it's what I know best. However, having read through some of the items in the upcoming 2.4 patch and with some of what I've taken in here, it seems like it would be a viable choice with the addition of [Guardian's Alchemist Stone].

What are peoples opinions on this both short term and long term? I've seen there's a lot of competition for the two trinket slots but reading that Protection Paladins at times will be chugging mana pots, combining it's +40% boost to them with a huge chunk of defense to boot, it seems a really nice overall item. I know Blacksmithing has some good items but I was under the impression they've been superseded by most of the BoJ and ZA items. I don't know if it matters but, in the long term, I have zero intention of switch to Retribution for anything and temporarily would go over to Holy if it was necessary.

 

Denogran

If I had to do it again from the start I'd do engineering (currently mining/BS-armor). The helms are pretty well amazing, and that has always been the most difficult spot for me to gear up. Blacksmithing has served me well, but badge stuff is nearly as good. I'm not sure I'd take alchemy for a trinket you'd only be using situationally. Most of the time I'm using 2 stamina trinkets, or 1 stamina and 1 save-my-ass-on-use trinket. It's certainly not a bad trinket, but I'm not sure I'd take up a profession just for it.

 

Yenadar

This is something I have struggled with as well.

You can't go wrong with a money-maker like herbalism, (considering the constant in-demand status of consumables), plus the other tanking benefits of the [Fel Blossom] and [Nightmare Seed]. Keep in mind that if the blossom is used under 35% health, then the Ardent Defender extend's it's absorbtion, making it effectively 975 - 1625 absorbed. It does use a Pot cooldown, so the pot is going to be more useful most of the time, especially with the stone, though the blossom doesn't count as healing, so isn't reduced by Mortal Strike effects or RoS Phase 1 for example, and it does also prevent casting interruption while it is up.

Alchemy would be just a way to boost that profit until 2.4 with the stone, which is REALLY nice in my opinion, though maybe not worth getting a whole profession for.

Unfortunately, I took a gamble on Blacksmithing that 2.4+ would open up some Prot Pally BoP items, but it looks like I lost on that bet, and the only thing I use BS for is the [item]Greater Ward of Shielding[item], which are buyable. Even mining, I generally end up buying my ore, since on my server, ore is massively over farmed. I am seriouslly considering dropping both for Herb/Alch.

The only other professions I could make a case for are Enchanting for the ring enchants (minor benefit), and Engineering (for another pulling weapon and the early tanking goggles), though the benefit is really minor, and easily surpassed or overlooked.

Unfortunately, every profession that has something useful, is just 1 thing that is useful, maybe 2 or 3. The only real motivation for getting 1 profession over another is how useful that 1 thing is, if it is worth it, and if you can make a case for any of the rest for any alts/guild/etc.

 

ederick

Just wondering what everyone thinks about the 2.4 tankadin badge loot. It looks pretty poor to me in comparison to for example the 2.3 badge chest, boots and t5 set pieces.

Ederick

 

Eradorn

As for professions, I felt that I have been jipped as an armorsmith. Get a moneymaker.

As for tankadin loot, the "Warr" chest is far better than the pali one in my opinion, but I think that they are some nice upgrades if you are still with Kara/T4 gear.

 

Lookit

WoW BlueTracker: [ Bug ] Multi Shot

Per Hortus, most of the multi-target abilities that were changed to not break CC have been reverted to their 2.3 state, and will continue to function as they did previously.

Can anyone with a current PTR build check to see if Avenger's Shield still avoids CC'd targets?

And regarding the 2.4 badge loot, I'll be picking up the [Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor] and [Chestplate of Stoicism]. I love the spell damage on [Shattrath Protectorate's Breastplate] but I'd rather have the mitigation of the "warrior" chest piece than the spellhit. Along with the boots, I'm surprised that they opted for so much spell hit, but I suppose that fits the profile of "High iLvl with non-perfect itemization" for badge loot that prevents it from being out and out equal to or better than tier loot.

 

Jiibus

According to the patch notes from today:

 

Cathela

Right. Unfortunately, that doesn't actually mean that the change will be present when 2.4 goes live.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Jiibus

It's live today, thats what the notes said while installing the patch. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

 

Russta

It's this your first time patching WoW?

I can't remember the last time a set of patch notes went through for WoW that were 100% up-to-date. If Hortus, of all people, said yesterday that the change isn't going to go through then, judging from their previous track record, the change isn't going through.

 

Lookit

It's true that historically the patch notes released with the patch are usually a couple builds old and do not reflect any changes made just a few days prior to the patch going live. But people are reporting in the 2.4 thread that AS still does not target CC'd mobs, so it looks like we're good.

 

Russta

Well I do actually hope I'm wrong because it seems a really good change, the post I quoted just screamed of naivety.

 

◊ zeidrich

I would hardly list Anticipation as "mandatory". Surely nice, and a good use of talent points. But you can always ask yourself "Do I need 20 more defense?" and the answer might be no. Toughness, sure, that's mandatory. You never want less armor, but it's not strange to think you can spare some avoidance. Especially once you get past t5 gear and it's absolute dearth of avoidance.

5/5 Anticipation gives you:
0.8% -crit, -hit, +parry, +dodge, +block.
In total, 2.4% avoidance, .8% block, .8% crit avoidance.

5/5 Deflection gives you:
5% avoidance.

If you're crit immune anyways and you have to choose between deflection and anticipation for example, Deflection is a better use of points.

However, the issue really comes from the fact that the only talents that I want but don't have the points to get, is improved SoR in Holy. But you can not get away from spending at least 43 points in Prot, regardless of how you spend your early level talents. Because what is necessary is HS, Imp HS, AD and Combat Expertise. I would say that AS is near mandatory for myself, but I'm sure some people can get away with not having it.

But all in all, that means if you do get iSoR, you spend 10 points in holy, 44 in prot, 7 in ret (I would consider imp judgement mandatory for threat) you must cut out Deflection anyways. By this point, you're losing almost 8% damage reduction via avoidance to get 15% more SoR/JoR threat. To me that's a very hard pill to swallow.

Ignoring iSoR however, gives you nearly all the points you need to have a solid build. I would always recommend a 0/49/12 build. In my opinion, if any points float, they should float between anticipation and reckoning. You can start to move points to reckoning when threat starts becoming an issue because of the avoidance present on your gear.

If I wasnt relying on the anticipation for flames tanking, I would move those points into reckoning right now. But the tree is incredibly top heavy since you pretty much need the top tier talents. If I could make one change, it would be to switch the position of Anticipation and Redoubt. Redoubt is all but useless, except for as a prereq for shield spec.

It's pretty much a necessity to have 12 in ret, which leaves 49 in prot. There are exactly 49 points that I feel are useful in a general tanking sense in prot, but in order to get them you need to spend 54 points, as 5 are spent in redoubt.

Reckoning is the first to go early on, because threat gen is the least of your worries early on. Later on though, avoidance is less of an issue than threat, so I find it worthwhile to drop anticipation for reckoning.

 

kalbear

The people that know that anticipation is not mandatory are the people that don't need to look at the core talent spec when making their character. That post was aimed primarily at newer paladins who aren't sure what the best talents are. It would be very, very difficult to get to uncrush/uncrit without anticipation when you're pre-kara while maintaining a reasonable health pool. Yes, you can do all sorts of specs when you're geared to the point where you don't need to worry about anticipation, but it's very good most of the time - and those 5 points can't be spent in a whole lot of other talents. Reckoning and spell warding, basically.

Because of timing issues it turns out that improved judgment is actually worse on a per-point basis than 1hws is for improving threat, at least against targets that can crush. When you don't care about crushability it's better, but when you do you end up sacrificing uptime on seal of righteousness because of the need to always do holy shield and the correct desire to keep consecrate up as much as possible. I've linked to sample 40-second sequences in the past that show this, but the summary is basically that you lose 4 seconds of sealed attacks in exchange for one more judgment in a 40 second period, all the while having a much more complicatd cycle that you must maintain to get optimal use. The first point is much better than the second for this reason as well.

On the subject of professions, I truly believe that engineering is far and away the best of the best - especially now that the goggles can be upgraded to T6+ quality. Engineering can provide money, it doesn't cost that much to level any more, there are plenty of useful items for paladins and it gives a huge boost early on when gearing. BS is not nearly as useful, JC is less useful but more profitable, enchanting has longer use but is not as useful.

I personally would go engineering/herbalism if it's your first character, or engineering/enchanting if it's another character. Having enchanting means you can do things like instance runs to make money, but having both will be a big money sink early on. And herbalism is far more profitable than mining is.

 

◊ zeidrich

For what it's worth, I consider 1hws pretty much mandatory as well. But Imp Judgement in general will give a larger threat boost than 2 points in reckoning.

The quoted post said anticipation was mandatory.

I said it is recommended for lower gear levels, though at a certain point you can change it out for other talents.

Likewise, I wanted to note that point for point, deflection does more to put you towards crush immunity than anticipation does.

Crit immunity was never difficult for me to reach, even pre-kara. But if it is something you are struggling with, yes, take the talent. My point was not that it is a bad talent, but that it was not a mandatory talent.

0/49/12 is my recommended build. Put 5 points into anticipation and 0 in reckoning when you need the defense. Take them out of anticipation and put them into reckoning if you start to need the threat more than the defense.