Denogran

+23 spell damage and -3 stamina from [Hammer of Judgement]. So about 11 tps for about 35 hp. Take that how you will, but personally I won't be bidding on the ToC till every lock and mage in my guild that needs one has one.

There's no spreadsheet that I know of, but there's also no single "best" gearset. I use several gearsets depending on what fight I'm doing. There's also the classic argument between avoidance and stamina, which really boils down to which you and your healers are more comfortable with. Reading the first post should give you a pretty good idea of weightings, and then you should be able to shift around your gear based on the specific encounter you're facing.

 

Furiousk

I am usually judging re-sealing 99% of the time as well. I found for those rare occasions where I need a different seal in place, using a modifier key to bypass the normal re-seal behavoir of my judgment macro works for me. I get the ease of use of a judgement/reseal macro, with the ability to bypass that behavior on demand to judge and apply any seal.

Ill dredge up the exact macro later (it uses different seals depending on what i have equipped in my MH/OH) but this is the gist of it. My thumb button on my mouse is bound to my Ctrl key, so it makes it very easy to use this functionality.

click normally for the traditional Judge/Seal behavior, click while depressing CTRL to judge only, leaving you with the option to apply any seal you wish

 

Russta

I feel like this should be obvious to me but I can't figure out whether to make my next badge purchase [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian] with Stamina gems, or [Chestplate of Stoicism] with a Spell Damage gem. I know the general consensus for making these sorts of decisions is to base it on your role for your guild but I'm not really in that position. Right now I'm just running heroics and squeezing myself into the odd Karazhan as offtank and spend my time worrying that my Stamina is chronically low. I can't decide whether the extra spell damage is worth losing a respectable amount of defensive stats yet wonder if that's the Warrior of two years in me talking. But then I don't know if those extra stats make it worth 25 more badges at a time where I need as many upgrades as possible...

 

kalbear

You want [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian]. It's the more generally useful item.

 

Maccam

I've found the reverse... even for agro considerations. I only came to this conclusion after fiddling with gear for a couple of weeks, and I don't think it's all that clear-cut even now. I think it probably depends on what gear you can mix and match to come up with an optimal mix. That being said, overall, the iLevel is higher because of a reason... it's a better item. Both of them have attributes that are right in our wheel house however.

 

Thalshara

Does anyone have or know of any high 'shield block value' items that they swear by (besides [Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600] of course, that's obvious)?
I feel like my block value has dropped too low in certain situations, and want to find a few good bandaids when I'd rather get hit more, but for less damage.

 

kalbear

I don't see how block value is going to compare to spelldamage for threat.

It might be a higher ilvl, but that doesn't mean it's a better item for prot paladins. Block value, while good, is not in general as useful for a prot paladin as spelldamage is. The [Chestplate of Stoicism] has functionally no threat for a paladin; if gemmed with spelldamage, it has less stamina as well. It does have more avoidance and serves a purpose, but that isn't to say it's the better item for a paladin in general.

Like I said, it's the more generically useful item. It may not be ideal for tanking trash in Hyjal or kiting a fel reaver. It may not be ideal for a high-avoidance fight. But it's going to be useful everywhere and better in a lot of places that the chestplate is not.

 

Denogran

The libram off Mother is awesome, and becomes even more awesome if you spec into reduced judgment times. [Tome of the Lightbringer]. Plus at your gear level, you're getting pretty close( if you haven't passed it already ) to the point where the badge libram becomes pointless.

 

Maccam

For heroics and aoe tanking (e.g hyjal) I find block value to be my best friend. For what it's worth, the document at the beginning of this thread states block value as the #1 thing to gear for aoe etc.... and I've found that to be true. Getting the "right" balance is an ongoing tweak as gear and situations change... but I find that [Chestplate of Stoicism] provides me room to move my gear around in such a way as to present a more optimum mix. When I have zero block value in this slot, I find myself compensating elsewhere to get it back in.... and not being as happy with the overall mix. Spell damage has its place (I generally use consumables to improve it in 25 mans)... but I'm by no means finding holding agro to be a problem (except when trying to be 2nd on the agro list as an off-tank) - gear mix ranges from about 300-600 damage and healing depending on the fight and consumables.

If you were talking about which gear to use as an Off-tank for a 25 man raid, I think I'd prefer [Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian]... but I don't find myself in those situation often enough to keep it in my bags. In main tank situations, I don't find my agro to be an issue, while survivability is always a concern, so again, i'd go with [Chestplate of Stoicism] for that role. Note that I haven't had many opportunities to MT in 25 mans so I'm not speaking from a wealth of experience in that context.

 

kalbear

That's fair. I guess I don't tend to care about optimizing for heroics since they tend to be fairly trivial anyway; the ones that aren't are the ones that have a lot of spelldamage flying around, so BV is even less useful there.

Optimizing for Hyjal is an okay idea, but I've never seen an issue with just using a standard set. The only time I've seen our paladin die is when multiple aboms stunlocked him - and again, BV doesn't matter in that case.

If you really are just concerned about hyjal and heroics, I'd agree. [Chestplate of Stoicism] is better. I just don't think that the gain there is worth the loss in general.

 

Leonardwood

Ok... it's here. I know it is. But i cant find it at the moment. Can someone please give me a quick breakdown of how a paladin tanks Leo (SSC). I've seen it here before but cant relocate it. My guild refuses to consider letting me even try it (we're 3 in hyjal and 3 in BT, but I'm losing my mind with the lack of respect or even serious consideration i get as a tankadin, not even allowed to tank in shit we have on farm)

 

Sidewalk

Oops .. too fast on the response .. not valid info

 

Leonardwood

Thanks, but i was looking for a little bit more than what he gives. I want to convince my guild to let me try it, but having never done it I'm not making my argument very strong

 

◊ Oggie

Physical side:
SoR, judge as required, Avenger's Shield when the whirlwind is about to end, chain reseal SoR for some mild aoe threat. Wear a threat suit, get clipped by the dot, he hits like an infant. Don't stress about crushability unless you don't trust your healers.

Caster side:
Build a SoV stack while waiting for your turn. Use a threat trinket, shield toss, excorism, JoV/JoR (JoR if your SOV stack is sub 2), seal SoR and keep going. Use AW if you aren't going to need to bubble off the stack.

Edit:

As for 'why to do it' a pally's lead threat, extremely high threat shield toss, as well as the insanity of the threat HS would produce physical handles that side of the arguement. The fire argument is less good, but the ability to bubble off a stack of debuffs 1/2 times a fight is quite handy, especially below 15%.

One hundred idiots make idiotic plans and carry them out. All but one justly fail. The hundredth idiot, whose plan succeeded through pure luck, is immediately convinced he's a genius.
- Iain M. Banks, Matter

We're all about quality here.

 

Tilted

The most critical part of tanking this fight is picking up the transitions after aggro drops. Admittedly Alliance has it easier with SoV, but Horde also have the advantage that JoB is unresistable. The main idea is to use JoB to get his attention, then once he's on you switch to SoR for consistent threat generation.

Whirlwinds: Have one of your shamans place a Searing Totem near where you want to tank him. After he drops aggro he'll beeline straight for it (unless you have triggerhappy DPS in which case it's not your fault). When his WW is about to stop, put up SoB and get into position. Time your Avenger's Shield to hit right after the aggro drop, then immediately judge blood. This will give you a solid 2-3k lead on threat, and DPS can start in as soon as you have him in place.

Demon-elf Transitions: These are much easier. Just have Consecration and Holy Shield active during the shift, and judge blood to get his attention. Once he's on you, DPS can go to town.

15% Split: Best I can tell, the threat drop happens right as he splits into two. Pop AW at this time and go nuts. As soon as he starts his whirlwind, just go back to the Searing Totem pickup method to put him on his ass.

Overall threat is very easy to manage, assuming you keep JotC up (or you're lucky enough to run with a ret pally). He attacks very fast, so Holy Shield threat is through the roof, and the WW DoT does just enough damage to ensure you have a steady stream of mana to work with. Like Oggie said, wear a threat suit, and I'd even go so far as to eat spelldmg food while you're learning how it's done. He really doesn't hit hard at all, evidenced by the fact that about half my damage taken is typically from the WW bleed DoT.

If you're worried about your guild leadership holding some sort of stigma against prot pallies (*sigh* that this still happens), just be damn sure when a wipe is your fault or if it was just some mage blindly lobbing Fireballs with no concern for the aggro drop.

EDIT: One major benefit to going with a pally over a warrior is the Inner Demons. The demons are weak to holy, and there is little to no concern that you'll be able to kill yours in time. Plus, Exorcism works on them, so that helps to drop them fast. Warriors have a MUCH harder time killing them.

 

Leonardwood

Well I argued long and hard, but the best I got was main tank for the elf phase. Warlock still did demon (we wiped 3 times cause warlock got destroyed >.<). I handled all aggro drops and held the aggro on all transitions except one badly timed AS that hit a split second before he stopped whirlwind (my DBM timer was off).

My biggest opposition is from the rogue and fury warrior officers. They insist that if I tank demon melee dps would be destroyed.

As there are only 3-4 melee, I almost think they could stay at the opposite corner of the hitbox and avoid most of the dmg. If not maybe they could rotate in and out.

So... how does melee dps work with a Tankadin? Or does it just not work?

 

kalbear

It works fine. Go in every 10 seconds and lay a consecrate. Then step back to max judgment range, hit exorcism and judge. You don't melee and you don't holy shield, but you can stay far enough away that melee dps hits them.

Alternately, just have melee wait it out a bit while you beat the hell out of him up close. The lack of melee DPS in the phase is probably going to be made up for by the ability for ranged DPS to go all out and for an easier transition.

 

Anedris

Isn't it rather unusual to use the same tank on both phases? (I know it can be done, since he hits quite weakly, but full FR is going to gimp your threat output some.) And since a paladin is ideal for tanking the elf phase and no one is going to out-threat a warlock in the demon phase, that's the role assignment that makes most sense... (again, not to say a paladin can't do it by any means - in fact I think that if you and your melee are at max melee range on either side you can both hit him without chaining the nuke - but a paladin is almost tailor-made to tank the elf phase).

 

Russta

I did it on Warrior for 3-4 weeks before we decided that the benefits you got just didn't outweigh the pros of using a Warlock. The big problem for Warrior was the chronic rage starvation, which is something a Paladin won't have to deal with. I know if I had to hold hate on him as Paladin that I'd feel pretty confident with the tools we have.

Oh, and it's unnecessary to stand 10 yards away from him, just have both yourself and the melee max their hit box and it'll be enough. That way you're only losing out on Holy Shield threat and can build a little extra with SoR.

 

garazdawi

Wouldn't holy shield aggro still be 0 as he is casting all the time and not meleeing you? SoR threat would help abit though.

 

Russta

Yes, that's why I said you'd only be missing out on Holy Shield threat for precisely that reason.

 

xellos

I'm usually retribution for raiding, but I've recently started to build my prot set again to backup our main prot paladin and for personal enjoyment in heroics. I hastily picked up [Lightbringer Legguards] not realizing that [Inscribed Legplates of the Aldor] existed. Is it worth it to spend 100 badges for the upgrade or just be satisfied with T6? I'm currently using [Unwavering Legguards].

 

kalbear

I wouldn't bother upgrading to the badge gear. It's better - it trades int and spelldamage for stam and sockets - but it's not so much better that it should be an issue.