g0dsmacked

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft my current build

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft my 2.3 build ( granted the tool tips havent changed to reflect, but thats where the points will be)

 

• Gromweld

I plan on going with the following for 2.3:

Unleashed Gaming

This is primarily an MT build, designed for max mitigation/avoidance. Reckoning will be missed, as will Guardian's Favor.

 

Daeren

From going through your parses, it seems like you ate one shear on your first kill. That might make it a bit harder at least.

On damage taken, your warrior took a maximum of 11561 damage, you a maximum of 10872. He does have 4,7% more avoidance, which may explain why he's easier to heal, but it stops around that. You did not take 1k more damage per hit. Actually, on average hits taken, you had 500 less damage taken compared to him per attack on average.

So, don't knock yourself for this, it's great to see fellow tankadins achieving stuff like this.

 

jere

Chicken, I didn't see where anyone responded to you on this, so forgive me if I missed it. I have been testing on the PTR and have found the Direct Damage portion of SoV to be defined by roughly:

weapon_speed*10 + (weapon_speed/90)*spell_dmg.

I spent some time testing various weapons in SMV (to avoid zone buffs) and without 1H spec.

I posted the numbers I got here:
Maintankadin :: View topic - Seal of Vengeance Redux

Just scroll down on page 3 to my table where I posted my results (and what I expected to see via the equation I determined).

I had 2 weapons (a 1.6 speed and a 3.6 speed) that had no spell dmg and found that the direct damage SoV did was exactly equal to weapon_speed*10 (so a 1.6 speed would do 16, etc.)

I need to test with weapons of other speeds more, but this is what I have found.

Also, somewhere before you asked about 1H spec and SoV. 1H spec does increase SoV damage. I found that out testing a few patches back, so I don't have any hard data, but I can probably come up with some values if you want. I have a guest over for the week though, so it will probably be a week before I can sit down and test again.

 

• Hustle

A poor choice given that our white damage is a very very small source of threat, and 10% strength when you only have 130ish is a very minuscule amount of block value. Imp SoR is more for Holy Paladins who want to solo farm as holy, not for protection. The 15% bonus occurs on the base damage of the ability, the effect is not calculated with your spell damage, which means it doesn't scale at all with your spell damage/gear level.

Also, dropping points from parry like you mentioned is definitely not something I would recommend for any tank. Avoidance is a wonderful thing, and while I prefer the consistency of blocks as a tank and as a healer, it's not something you can overlook gaining 1% avoidance for 1 talent point.

www.grandcrusader.blogspot.com

 

• Hustle

Interesting find. To counter this, I've been using a 1.8 speed weapon to tank with since I hit 70, and since they added the extra damage component when a 5 stack is present I've never seen anything higher than maybe 15 on the upper end of non-partial resists unless Crusader is judged.

I will pay super close attention to this tonight, but I am almost 100% certain I've never seen anything close to 18 even though with my weapon that should be the approximate value. I'd check a WWS for you, but I believe the name of the extra damage is Seal of Vengeance, which wouldn't do anything for us I'm afraid.

www.grandcrusader.blogspot.com

 

flyingtoastr

If he did this testing on the 2.3 PTR it would be more damage than we are seeing on live right now.

From the latest patch notes:
"Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased."

I'm in your beta, fixing your holy tree...

Save Atlantis!

 

Cathela

That was fixed some time ago, actually. Imp. SoR affects total SoR and JoR damage now.

If you're regularly in MT type situations, sure.

But when facing a situation where tank mitigation is the overriding concern, most guilds won't be using a paladin tank anyway. So for a lot of people there are good reasons for skipping the 10+ point sink in Ret entirely (once crushes are no longer an issue, of course).

Personally I love being able to put Imp. LoH on any of our tanks without sacrificing the mana bar of one of our holy paladins.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

 

Fiola

The coefficient seems to be (1.1% of +dmg + 10) * weapon speed.

[Paladin] Ability Mechanics


If I remember correctly, the Live coefficient is around 1% * weapon speed, so the buff is the addition of base damage and a coefficient tweak.

 

jere

I think the only difference is the added base bonus damage (which seems to be weapon_speed*10 so far as I test it). The spell damage coefficient seems unchanged between live and the PTR.

1.1% should be about right. I use 1/90, which happens to be 1.11111111~%, as that seems to be pretty accurate for the results I have seen.

And I am indeed testing on the PTR at the moment for those who were asking before, I have just put off testing for the week till my guests leave (I am guessing they don't want to see me hit demons for 2 hours at a time all week while I record data )

 

dakalro

Even though I'm not a paladin, is there any at least decent reason to skip AD, I mean at 23-24k hp, which shouldn't be too hard for any t6 geared prot that's 8-8.5k hp threshold, providing, if not leaped, up to what, 16% extra DR when going from full to 0hp? Looks like a huge bonus imo, esp for trash or bosses that hit a bit under 9k or so.

 

• Chicken

The only reason to skip it is if it prevents you from getting other talents your builds needs. E.G. I'll be skipping it because I want at least Illumination for healing purposes; some paladins will be skipping it because they want to maximize threat by picking up Sanctity Aura.

The downside of taking full Ardent Defender now is that it'll basically put you on at least 43 points in Protection, thus prohibiting you from picking up any of the good talents in the other two trees. If that isn't an issue for you though, you should definitely pick it up.

 

deadpaladin

Hi ive recently respeced from Holy to prot and have been trauling the thread for builds.

ive seen a few differant ideas on the way to build and for differant purposes, so im stumped for how to play it.

Im intending to be a main tank and have pretty much been tanking away spamming conc and shield reserving wrath for when/if i lose agro on someone. (right def is a pain to use will ahve to try that macro )

current build is pretty much prot going for int bonus of holy and parry of ret. gear is still a work in progress

My Profile


Im thinking of respeccing to loose Dev aura and gain reckoning as well as shuffling a few points to be more along the lines of other prot builds ive seen, but considering to try for imp retir aura.

is this wise? Also could you point me towards any build/gear layouts so i can have a see which would be more suitable for me?

 

• Snowy

The int talent is pretty much 5 wasted talent points, consider how much extra max mana that really gives you. There's your 5 points for reckoning right there. Having said that, why 5/5 Devo Aura? It's pretty unlikely you'll ever be running it right? You should be having Retribution Aura running if you're tanking. So switch those 5 points from Imp Devo Aura into 5/5 1-H Specialization. Read the tooltip carefully -- it increases ALL damage done while a 1-H weapon is increased. This is a strict 5% increase in your threat, so you really want to have this.

The points in Ret are fine, although you may want to either drop 2 points in Stoicism or Guardian's Favor to pick up Improved Judgement.

My paladin runs with a typical 49/12 cookie cutter spec which works extremely well for 5 mans and Karazhan. That would be the following build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Benefactors' Bar, where you get free English lessons:

 

kalbear

I've seen this elsewhere, and I'm a bit baffled. Is retribution aura really that much worth it over devotion aura when you're talking karazhan and heroic tanking? I realize that as you get in gear progression armor value becomes less and less valuable per point, but early on that +1000 armor value has to be at least worth 1.5% damage mitigation, and that sounds like it's worth more than the threat generated from retribution.

Or as this article points out, while you get diminishing returns from armor mitigation in terms of damage prevented, you don't get diminishing returns in terms of your life expectancy as armor increases. I would think that until you're AC capped, more armor is always better.

 

Questioner

Agreeing with most of your point, however, I have never run retribution aura in a raid main tank setting. Sure, if you've got a holy paladin running it for you, that's fine. Either way, Improved devotion aura is not worth 5 points. I would have to say the preffered MT build over at maintankadin is:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

Come 2.3 it will change somewhat. I imagine the points in reckoning will move to combat expertise, with a little more flavor between kings, spell warding, and the new ret talent changes (pursiot of justice and imp jotc).

 

deadpaladin

Dev aura was just for making damage reductions on low threat groups tbh.

ive not tanked a heroic yet since most ppl arent interested in either a) pala tanks or b) waiting for threat to gen and attacking immediately

But yep i rarely use dev aura when im in a competant group taht can cause some real threat.


I like the look of that build was concerned i was wasting the 5 points in holy, but now its confirmed im happy

Also i see your only like 5 points off im pretri aura.

is it worth dropping precision and spel warding to gain the extra threat gen off retri aura? or is the 4% spell damage reduction and 3% melle crit worth more than on hit damage of 39 as id presume over a instance/raid id get more damage of the ret aura than the 3% crit would proc if taking mass agro.

As i say im new to tanking so might be a tad slow with concepts

 

vorda

Smells like perfect paladin tank material then!

 

Denogran

I partially agree. I personally find points in Guardian's Favor to be a complete waste, it's basically a holy PVP talent. I find that I do run with devo aura on occasion, mostly in situations where threat generation is far less useful than maxing out stamina/avoidance. But the imp devo points just aren't worth it, we don't have enough spare points to go around as it stands. Ask for a holy pally to be stuck in your group instead (if there's one to spare), as they're fairly likely to have that talent (good for MT group, arena, etc).

Stoicism seems to have little worth for PVE tanking, again seems like a PVP talent (it's rare for mobs to dispel your spells). Spell Warding is very useful to have though, as nearly every boss mob in the game does some sort of spell damage.

Reckoning and 1-handed spec are really useful threat generators. Reckoning is much more useful for MTing something than OTing (in the sense of both tanks being on the same mob, not off-tanking a separate mob), as it won't proc unless you're getting wailed on. 1-handed spec is just about mandatory though, 5% is a huge threat bonus.

I haven't had too many occasions where I missed precision, and honestly I liked having some points in intellect, although I will be removing them for 2.3. Any "free" mana I can get helps a lot with the mana pot consumption.

As far as the actual tanking goes, read the basic guildlines in the first post of this thread. It sums up pally tanking pretty nicely in about 6 bullet points .

 

• Snowy

For that level of tanking, I think Ret aura is far better, threat is much more of a concern. I haven't tanked anything in a 25 man raid, but I imagine I'd be running Devo there -- but Imp Devo still seems like a waste of points. That's for others to answer though, at his level though I don't think it's a concern.

I guess in a broader sense it really depends on threat vs survivabilty in Karazhan. There's some fights where threat isn't a concern at all and survivabilty certainly is, and then absolutely I'd be running Devo there. I dont think I've ever run Devo in a heroic though.

Benefactors' Bar, where you get free English lessons:

 

• Vinsent

Ret aura is pretty huge for threat, but it really depends on multiple factors which to run, the most obvious being that if you have a holy paladin in your group they most likely have 5/5 devo so you can just have them run that while you run ret aura.

It really depends if your trying to get max threat or max mitigation.

Ret aura is huge for threat though, assuming 2.0 attack speed Ret aura is 26 damage per attack, so 13 holy damage a second or (1.9 x 13) 24.7 TPS on each attacker assuming no 1h spec. Just to compare, scant aura which is awesome, only adds @ 25 TPS to my standard cycle (consecrate, SoR, HS, Judge) yet people spend 21 points into ret to get it.

Your mileage may vary but ret aura is pretty damn good in general, if you are in a situation where you can get devo elsewhere, or can do not need max mitigation (trash, ae, etc).