[Paladin] Protection and you! - Page 8

Drfeelgood · 11/01/07, 3:16 AM

Originally Posted by Vinsent

Ret aura is pretty huge for threat, but it really depends on multiple factors which to run, the most obvious being that if you have a holy paladin in your group they most likely have 5/5 devo so you can just have them run that while you run ret aura.

My problem is our tank group looks like Feral/Warrior/Me/Lock/Tree. Our feral is our third tank and main assist and thus we never have room in group 1 for a devotion paladin. I run ret aura almost all of the time in raids except in situations where I'm going to be tanking something for a long time and reducing incoming damage is more important than threat. I sit around 15.6k armor or so in raids.

Prinsesa · 11/01/07, 8:15 AM

I have a question: What does a Paladin have that supposedly makes Leotheras so easy? I've heard that its the Seal of Vengeance ticking immediately after a Human-Demon transition to instantly generate threat and let the Paladin grab aggro. If this is the case, does that mean Horde Paladins are SOL?

bellator · 11/01/07, 8:39 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

I have a question: What does a Paladin have that supposedly makes Leotheras so easy? I've heard that its the Seal of Vengeance ticking immediately after a Human-Demon transition to instantly generate threat and let the Paladin grab aggro. If this is the case, does that mean Horde Paladins are SOL?

Paladins also have ranged attacks such as jugements/avenging shield which makes it far less of a chore to go chasing after him

JulianMaiev · 11/01/07, 10:19 AM

How positive are we that JoB can never, ever miss or be resisted?

edit: I thought I saw convincing statistical evidence for it, but the ret paladin in my guild swears he's seen it happen. Digging through our last two weeks' worth of WWS doesn't turn up any misses or resists, but he's hit capped so if it's on the melee table then that is to be expected anyway.

I'm curious because this would make MTing Hydross and tanking Leo both much, much easier.

Denogran · 11/01/07, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

Paladins also have ranged attacks such as jugements/avenging shield which makes it far less of a chore to go chasing after him

Ya if you have boss timers you can make it so your avenger's shield will land some fraction of a second after he comes out of WW/different phase. I've never tanked him in the Demon phase - always have a lock do that. But for Demon->human and after WW's, the shield, a judgement, or even a monster heal will usually snap Leo right back on you.

• Chicken · 11/01/07, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by JulianMaiev

How positive are we that JoB can never, ever miss or be resisted?

edit: I thought I saw convincing statistical evidence for it, but the ret paladin in my guild swears he's seen it happen. Digging through our last two weeks' worth of WWS doesn't turn up any misses or resists, but he's hit capped so if it's on the melee table then that is to be expected anyway.

I'm curious because this would make MTing Hydross and tanking Leo both much, much easier.

I've been casually experimenting with JoB myself after I found out it couldn't be resisted, I haven't seen it get resisted yet; and I'm certainly not melee hit capped. However, my sample size is currently small, I don't think I've used it more than twenty times since finding it out yet.

Twinky · 11/02/07, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

I've been casually experimenting with JoB myself after I found out it couldn't be resisted, I haven't seen it get resisted yet; and I'm certainly not melee hit capped. However, my sample size is currently small, I don't think I've used it more than twenty times since finding it out yet.

A simple test for this would be to have a Rogue CoS and test, then the same with evasion up. I know hits and resists are subject to change in pvp but it should give you an answer as to what kinda of hit system the judgement uses.

I beleive, it would be as a hunter shot they cannot be dodged/parried but they are subject to block and miss (so perhaps a warrior/prot pally would be a better candidate for the melee hit test), but going by the available information in the WWS logs this also wouldn't seem likely, is it partially resistable?

If they both end up being in-conclusive as to what hit table or roll sysem it uses, then surely it must be a bug. (one i hope blizz never fixes)

Fiola · 11/02/07, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Twinky

A simple test for this would be to have a Rogue CoS and test, then the same with evasion up. I know hits and resists are subject to change in pvp but it should give you an answer as to what kinda of hit system the judgement uses.

Someone in this thread did 3 trials of that test. All 3 tests resulted in a hit. The chances of those results for an ability based on spell hit are somewhere around .1% to .01%.

I beleive, it would be as a hunter shot they cannot be dodged/parried but they are subject to block and miss (so perhaps a warrior/prot pally would be a better candidate for the melee hit test), but going by the available information in the WWS logs this also wouldn't seem likely, is it partially resistable?

It seems unlikely that JoB would block/miss. All of the Alliance damage judgements are hit/resist.

Partial resists would be a different can of worms than spell/melee hit. SoC and JoC can both be partially resisted, but one uses melee hit while the other uses spell hit.

That's a good question though - Does JoB have partial resists? If not, that sounds like the ability skips the resist check, much like debuff judgements.

If they both end up being in-conclusive as to what hit table or roll sysem it uses, then surely it must be a bug. (one i hope blizz never fixes)

Until it's changed, just accept it as a perk of being a BElf. = P

• Chicken · 11/02/07, 11:59 AM

Judgement of Blood can definitely be partially resisted, so it doesn't skip the resist check completely. It appears to borrow the same basic mechanics Seal of Righteousness uses really; no full resists, no misses, but it does have partial resists.

galzohar · 11/02/07, 3:19 PM

"resist" (miss) and "800 damage (800 resisted)" are compeltely different checks AFAIK.

PsiVen · 11/02/07, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

It's currently hard to say how good (or bad) expertise is; it's clearly the worst of the three from a threat point of view, but getting one of your attacks parried reduces the time until the next attack of the mob you were attacking, turning expertise into the only one of the three that affects your survivability; expertise is worth roughly 0.9% damage reduction per point of expertise.

Ratings needed for 1% hit with each different rating:
15.8 hit rating = 1% hit
12.6 spellhit rating = 1% spellhit
7.8 expertise rating = 0.5% less dodges, 0.5% less parries

You said that it's clearly the worst of the three? Let's take another look at that. An attack which is avoided cannot trigger SoR, so it offers almost the same benefits as +hit at half the rating cost (and approx. the same threat benefits if you're behind the target or in front going past the -dodge cap).

Let's say you have a paladin with 3/3 Precision and 5/5 Combat Expertise, with no ratings from gear, against a boss with standard 5/5/10 M/D/P. That gives us this attack table:
6.00% Miss
8.75% Parry
3.75% Dodge
81.50% Hit / Crit / Glance (SoR procs regardless)

We approximate crits and glances cancelling each other out; this is probably not accurate, but as white damage is a small component anyway, it shouldn't be problematic. 20 hit rating will reduce chance to be missed by 1.27%, increasing SoR/melee/AS damage by ~1.6%. 20 expertise rating reduces chance to parry/dodge by 2.56% total, and thus increases SoR/melee damage by 3.1%. Take spells at 14% to be resisted, and 20 spell hit rating would increase your chance to hit with spells by 1.59%. This increases your threat from resistible abilities by 1.8%.

Now, based on some of my own WWS data on lone bosses, roughly:
45% of threat is affected by Spell Hit
35% of threat is affected by Hit
30% of threat is affected by Expertise

So,
20 Spell Hit Rating increases your TPS by about 0.83%
20 Hit Rating increases your TPS by about 0.56%
20 Expertise Rating increases your TPS by about 0.94%

• Chicken · 11/02/07, 7:16 PM

That's actually a good point, I just looked at it from a "1% of this provides a certain benefit" in which I didn't take into account the fact that the rating cost is a lot lower on expertise, which makes it significantly better than the other two.

I'll fix that up. Thanks.

Edit:

There we go, rewrote that part to mention that from a sustained TPS point of view Expertise is superior to the other two hit boosting stats, but the other two hit boosting stats are a bit better from a burst threat point of view. Also included a link to your post PsiVen, thanks again.

JulianMaiev · 11/02/07, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by PsiVen

Now, based on some of my own WWS data on lone bosses, roughly:
45% of threat is affected by Spell Hit
35% of threat is affected by Hit
30% of threat is affected by Expertise

Maybe I'm just being dumb here, but other than AS I don't see what +hit affects that +expertise doesn't. Clue me in?

(and if AS is 5% of your threat on a typical boss fight, I'm clearly doing it wrong.)

edit: according to the PTR notes warrior and druid taunt is now on melee hit. We'll have to see if that means a base 17% miss rate with 1% guaranteed resists (as with spells) or if it means a 9% base miss rate that can go to 0% (as with melee).

Either way, we just went from having the most reliable taunt (due to the moderate spell hit that we normally carry) to having the least reliable taunt.

If the PTR taunt for warriors and druids is on the melee system, then most of their taunts will now be totally unresistable with pretty minimal effort gearwise. With expertise rating affecting virtually everything else that they do-- but not everything that we do-- I can't help but think that our single-target threat is going to lag substantially behind our brother tanks.

I'm glad that tank threat levels are going up overall, but I kind of feel like our dual dependence on spell hit and melee hit is going to leave prot paladins out in the cold for single-target threat this patch.

edit edit: I totally missed that RD is also on melee hit now. Guess we wait and see what the resist rates are on the Brand New Tauntness.

PsiVen · 11/03/07, 3:35 AM

Happy to contribute Chicken

AS actually is about 5% of my threat when it's a fight where I can weave it in like VR. But yeah, it's rough.

I'm concerned about our single-target threat in 2.3 as well; it seems like warriors and druids are getting a big buff with Expertise while we really never used weapon skill or hit in the first place. Hopefully there will be some synergy worked out between hit ratings for us.

As you mentioned, this change is in the new PTR notes: (it's mislabeled, under the Mage changes)

Righteous Defense: The chance for this ability to land successfully on its targets is now increased by hit rating.

So I guess we have some testing to do -- if it turns out to be 9% affected by melee AND spell hit, almost every paladin with precision will have an unresistable taunt, which would be very nice.

vorda · 11/03/07, 7:59 AM

So I guess we have some testing to do -- if it turns out to be 9% affected by melee AND spell hit, almost every paladin with precision will have an unresistable taunt, which would be very nice.

The question would be if its still considered a spell or melee effect after this change aswell. Since spells always have 1% to get resisted. (I know, its just 1%, but something worth noting)

• Chicken · 11/03/07, 10:12 AM

Well, relative to a well geared warrior or druid our taunt will be less effective, but relative to now it'll still be more effective for us than it was before. It's about 7% less chance for taunt to be resisted (With the difference being largely affected by your gear).

I'd venture a hopeful guess and say that effectively makes normal +hit the best choice for us in case of quickly spawning adds with both Avenger's Shield and Righteous Defense now being affected by it. Doubly so for Blood Elf Paladins since if you really want to cement initial threat you just use a quick Judgement of Blood.

It's certainly worth testing, and rather makes me happy I happen to have a few items with hit rating on them; if I wear all three of those I actually have 63 hit rating (The third item, not currently equipped being a [Pepe's Shroud of Pacification]). That should put me at about 2% taunt resist chance with Precision, quite an improvement over my current 15.3% chance of a resist (On a boss that is).

Personally I'd enjoy it if Holy Shield were changed to melee hit too, and possibly Judgement of Righteousness as well; that'd also be a smooth buff to our single target threat unless you have really high amounts of spell hit. Note that with being affected by melee hit I do mean effectively that they are treated as ranged attacks are; no parries or dodges.

Fiola · 11/03/07, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

...
Personally I'd enjoy it if Holy Shield were changed to melee hit too, and possibly Judgement of Righteousness as well; that'd also be a smooth buff to our single target threat unless you have really high amounts of spell hit. Note that with being affected by melee hit I do mean effectively that they are treated as ranged attacks are; no parries or dodges.

If they're going to do that, they might as well do a complete mechanic overhaul to put every paladin ability on the same scaling system then. (ie; HoJ, Repent, Holy Shock, all damage judgements) At the same time, they'd need to do an itemization overhaul.

I don't think we're going to see +dmg/+hit itemization any time soon, personally; without itemization, the mechanic changes don't help.

Rorus Raz · 11/03/07, 12:56 PM

So, would this make [Bracers of the Ancient Phalanx] a very desirable upgrade? A good 1.4% or so parry/dodge reduction (2.8% total).

• Chicken · 11/03/07, 1:10 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that Expertise Rating first gets converted to Expertise before providing it's dodge/parry reduction effect. Technically speaking part of the Expertise Rating on those bracers is because of that "wasted" (It'd provide an equal benefit at any rating in between 20 and 23). That also means that the benefit is a bit lower than flatly calculating the reduction as Expertise Rating / Conversion number.

To actually calculate the benefit you get from expertise rating is a matter of dividing the amount of rating by 3.9, removing any decimals, and then multiplying by 0.25

Rorus Raz · 11/03/07, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Chicken

To actually calculate the benefit you get from expertise rating is a matter of diving the amount of rating by 3.9, removing any decimals, and then multiplying by 0.25

I divided it by 7.8 and multiplied that number by 0.5.

I did NOT remove any decimals, so the number is inaccurate to some degree.

jj_starr · 11/03/07, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Vinsent

Ret aura is pretty huge for threat, but it really depends on multiple factors which to run, the most obvious being that if you have a holy paladin in your group they most likely have 5/5 devo so you can just have them run that while you run ret aura.

It really depends if your trying to get max threat or max mitigation.

Ret aura is huge for threat though, assuming 2.0 attack speed Ret aura is 26 damage per attack, so 13 holy damage a second or (1.9 x 13) 24.7 TPS on each attacker assuming no 1h spec. Just to compare, scant aura which is awesome, only adds @ 25 TPS to my standard cycle (consecrate, SoR, HS, Judge) yet people spend 21 points into ret to get it.

Your mileage may vary but ret aura is pretty damn good in general, if you are in a situation where you can get devo elsewhere, or can do not need max mitigation (trash, ae, etc).

Ret aura is only useful prior to obtaining gear to become uncrushable or when fighting enough mobs that HS charges get used before it can be refreshed. When single target tanking boss mobs ret aura provides zero extra threat since it doesn't proc off of blocks. So since a MT pallys hit table only contains miss/dodge/parry/block it will never proc. Also it's returns when fighting multiple mobs are also diminished since between HS being up, Redoubt procs, and the pallys normal 30%+ avoidance/block ret aura won't be proccing as often as you would think. In end-game raid tanking the aura hierarchy is Sant(From a ret pally hopefully)>devo(from you or another pally)>imp Conc(Silence kills pallys)>ret IMO.

• Snowy · 11/03/07, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by jj_starr

Ret aura is only useful prior to obtaining gear to become uncrushable or when fighting enough mobs that HS charges get used before it can be refreshed. When single target tanking boss mobs ret aura provides zero extra threat since it doesn't proc off of blocks. So since a MT pallys hit table only contains miss/dodge/parry/block it will never proc.

What? That's not true at all. Take a look at this one little snippet from my Paladin tanking Moroes last night. There's plenty of blocks in there, and you can see the Retribution Aura damage every time there's a Greater Blessing of Sanctuary damage.

01:58'52.312 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 21 Holy damage 
312 Pyla's Thorns resisted by Moroes 
593 Zuljia's Heroic Strike hits Moroes for 321 
625 Zuljia's Revenge hits Moroes for 289 
625 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:58'53.015 Pyla's Melee crits Moroes for 282 
421 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
828 Pyla's Judgement of Righteousness resisted by Moroes 
828 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 1227 (358 blocked) 
01:58'54.031 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 176 
203 Zuljia's Devastate dodged by Moroes 
562 Pyla's Holy Shield hits Moroes for 228 Holy damage 
562 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 48 Holy damage (BLOCKED HERE)
562 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage (RET AURA HERE)
562 Pyla's Thorns resisted by Moroes 
843 Pyla's Melee misses Moroes 
01:58'55.078 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
843 Zuljia's Heroic Strike hits Moroes for 321 
01:58'56.250 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
718 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 120 
01:58'57.000 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 111 Holy damage (37 resisted) 
484 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:58'58.546 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Melee parried by Moroes 
843 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
984 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:58'59.546 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
01:59'00.359 Pyla's Melee parried by Moroes 
375 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 101 Holy damage (34 resisted) 
859 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 2993 (358 blocked) 
01:59'01.031 Moroes's Holy Shield resisted by Pyla 
140 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 1141 (358 blocked) 
375 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
390 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 48 Holy damage 
390 Pyla's Retribution Aura resisted by Moroes 
390 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 26 Nature damage 
390 Moroes's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary resisted by Pyla 
781 Pyla's Holy Shield hits Moroes for 228 Holy damage 
781 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage 
781 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 26 Nature damage 
01:59'02.093 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 100 (glancing) 
234 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 74 Holy damage (74 resisted) 
484 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 134 Holy damage 
01:59'03.156 Pyla's Judgement of Righteousness hits Moroes for 646 Holy damage 
171 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
390 Pyla's Consecration dots Moroes for 101 Holy damage (34 resisted) 
468 Moroes's Melee parried by Pyla 
843 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 119 
01:59'04.281 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 111 Holy damage (37 resisted) 
01:59'05.437 Pyla's Exorcism hits Moroes for 480 Holy damage (480 resisted) 
656 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
656 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 71 (54 blocked) 
843 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
890 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
01:59'14.781 Moroes's Melee parried by Pyla 
01:59'15.000 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 139 
093 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
453 Moroes's Melee dodged by Pyla 
531 Zuljia's Shield Slam hits Moroes for 516 
937 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 73 (glancing) 
01:59'16.968 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 123 (glancing) 
968 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 2362 (358 blocked) 
01:59'17.062 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 49 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage 
546 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 26 Nature damage 
546 Moroes's Melee misses Pyla 
859 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 109 
01:59'18.281 Moroes is afflicted by Curse of Agony 
703 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 130 
703 Moroes is afflicted by Demoralizing Shout 
718 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
01:59'19.062 Moroes's Melee parried by Pyla 
062 Moroes is afflicted by Shadow Embrace 
546 Sporty's Melee hits Moroes for 274 
562 Pyla's Judgement of Righteousness resisted by Moroes 
562 Moroes's Melee hits Pyla for 858 (358 blocked) 
781 Sporty's Melee hits Moroes for 135 (glancing) 
781 Pyla's Melee hits Moroes for 149 
984 Zuljia's Melee hits Moroes for 109 
984 Anzha's Curse of Agony dots Moroes for 204 Shadow damage 
984 Moroes is afflicted by Deadly Poison VII 
01:59'20.000 Pyla's Seal of Righteousness hits Moroes for 147 Holy damage 
000 Sporty's Sinister Strike hits Moroes for 403 
000 Zuljia's Thunder Clap hits Moroes for 149 
390 Moroes is afflicted by Corruption 
390 Moroes is afflicted by Thunder Clap 
406 Pyla's Greater Blessing of Sanctuary hits Moroes for 48 Holy damage 
406 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 27 Holy damage 
406 Pyla's Reflect hits Moroes for 7 Nature damage