Cromfel

Now that 2.3 introduces some damage increase and 30% threat reduction, its time to get this baby rolling. This topic will be updated on regular basis with new information of Retribution PvE performance. This is still work in progress, so prettymuch majority of the information is still lacking. If people have anything they feel should be added, feel free to post PM to me and I add it. (This to ensure I get email notification and can add new stuff ASAP)

1. Spreadsheets
2. Combat System Details
   1. Melee Hit rating
   2. Melee crit rating
   3. Spell crit rating
   4. Haste rating
3. Judgement Raid Effect Examples
4. DPS cycles
5. Item DPS Comparison

1. DPS Spreadsheets

DPS Spreadsheet Author: bellator
Imp. JotC Contribution Calculator (Excel)(Open Office) Author: Sigurd

2. Combat System Details

Melee Hit rating:
You need to aim for 9% hit (Talents + gear combined) for theoretical hit cap.

Melee Crit Rating:

Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)
Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)
Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Judgement of Blood (Melee hit rating)
Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)

Spell crit rating:

Exorsism (Spell hit rating)
Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)
Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)
Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)

Haste rating

Each 5% of haste will increase your total damage output as follows.



SoC downranking

Seal of Command difference in damage between rank1 and rank6 is about 5% in total damage, compared to the mana consuming. This test is done with T5 level gear. Exact theoretical calculations would be nice.



SoC Rank6 Example
Mana consumption 45 mana per second
DPS : 1043
Melee 44 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 24 %
Crusader Strike 22 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 10 %
DPS time : 3mn
WWS

SoC Rank1 Example
Mana consumption 20 mana per second
DPS : 934
Melee 48 %
Seal of Command (Holy) 26 %
Crusader Strike 21 %
Judgement of Command (Holy) 5 %
DPS time : 5mn
WWS

DPS Difference 11% less with R1
Mana consumption 55% less with R1

3. Judgement Raid Effect Examples Author: flyingtoastr

Updated to apply for patch 2.4

These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate for all attacks, spells, and abilities. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. Self buffs are considered into the calculations, but no outside factors (Windfury Totem) are included. All talents/abilities are patch 2.4 versions. Your results will vary.

Drinking Super Mana Potions on cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users equals 130.88 Mp5 (Per player)

Druid

Balance
Rotation 1: Moonfire, Starfire x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 70.48 Mp5

Rotation 2: Starfire, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 61.67 Mp5

Hunter

All Specs
Rotation 1: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Repeat
Attack Speed: 2.10 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 220.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Arcane/Multi Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.44 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 227.46 Mp5

Mage

Fire
Rotation 1: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Rotation 1: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Arcane
Rotation 1: Arcane Blast x3, Arcane Missiles, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.08 Mp5

Paladin

Protection
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Judgement of Righteousness, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 124.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 147.32 Mp5

Rotation 3: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 106.81 Mp5

Rotation 4: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.39 Mp5

Priest

Shadow
Rotation 1: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Shaman

Elemental
Rotation 1: Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 118.40 Mp5

Enhancement
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Earth Shock, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.6 seconds/2.6 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 317.63 Mp5

Warlock

Affliction
Rotation 1: Curse of Something, Siphon Life, Unstable Afflicition, Corruption, Shadowbolt, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 100.91 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Shadowbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Immolate, Incinerate x6, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 86.33 Mp5

4. DPS cycles

This is an adaptation of the WW/Bloodthirst model used by warriors (where they only put 1 point into Imp WW). What that means is 1 point in imp Judgement is actually a DPS increase over 2 points. Effect is very minimal and with 2 points you have little more room for errors.



Full cycle comparison table:
ImageShack - Hosting :: retcyclebz6.jpg

DPS Cycle Spreadsheet Author: Sigurd

5. Item Comparison

Full item comparison - Author: Nuuga

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - Paladin DPS Gear Rankings

How are the items being ranked?
- Currently, this is for Seal of Command Retribution Paladins only. Assuming an 8 (or 10 second depending on talents) damage cycle of normal attacks with SOC and then Judgement of Command and Crusader Strike.
- Based on this attack cycle, a DPS value based on the item's strength, attack power, agility, +hit, +crit and +spell damage are calculated.
- Also relative mob level is taken into account as you can see in the full attack table.


Weapon Comparison based on bellator spreadsheet.

Tier5 and Tier6 gears are assumed most common items with full tier 5/6 according to instance itemization available. Values for DPS are not your actual damage output. Its unbuffed reference dps values only so you can compare the difference between weapons (Adjust the evaluation to your own itemization, your mileage may vary). Do not consider the dps value as actual damage output.



Anyone whining about conditional differences will be shot, use your own imagination in evaluating the results. It is not my responsability to take stupidity into account. These are only reference values to ease weapon selection, for exact results use bellators DPS spreadsheet with your exact itemization.


WiP.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Arfea

On one of your videos you said you would like to work in AW cycles into your dps regime, but couldn't due to threat. Will this be possible now? (not much of a retadin so the maths is unknown to me). Nice work on the graph!

 

Duncan

Is this 30% thread reduction REALLY confirmed?

The only blue post i found where it was listed (along with other things) got removed shortly after it was posted.

And there is nothing mentioned in 2.3 notes on the PTR, however i can't get on the PTR to take a look myself, though (damn char copy....).

 

• Marroc

 

Sapp

Assuming the joWis proc on PTR is a bug, what's the cutoff in fight duration for the extra minimal damage from max rank soc to outweigh the functionally infinite sustainability of rank 1 soc spam?

How do we even go about starting to find that?

 

Wrl

Ret paladin checking in. I am more than pumped for the changes forthcoming.

From my own guestimations 2.3 will be roughly a 15% dps increase for us given the CS changes, the 3% more crit, and the basically nullified change of vengeance dropping.

I don't know about you, but this coupled with threat reduction will be putting me at the top of the meters on a lot of fights. I look forward to the QQ posts after 2.3 goes live.

 

Duncan

Thanks, however that damn spell damage on season3 set is still there, though. Hope this get's a single blue post, too. :P

 

Kyne

Let's not make these kinds of wild judgments, work with real numbers, and avoid making sweeping conclusions before we actually get some data.

 

Rheyah

I will get you those numbers.

 

• Xaviera

Does not appear to be an Open Office friendly spreadsheet. I know it's an Excel spreadsheet, but I've never had a problem opening any of them in Open Office before.

Any way it could be made compatible, or something?

 

flyingtoastr

Just to get it up here because there were questions, the confirmed 2.3 changes and the blues who said it:

Confirmed 2.3 Paladin Changes
-Mana cost for Exorcism, Holy Wrath, and Hammer of Wrath lowered. (Source)
-Vengance duration increased to 30 seconds. (Source)
-Improved Seal of Crusader benefits put into base spell, talent benefits replaced with those of Sancitified Crusader. (Source)
-Sanctified Crusader renamed to Sanctified Seals, which increases chance to critically hit with all spells and melee attacks by 1/2/3% and reduces the chance your Seals will be dispelled by 33/66/100%. (Source)
-Crusader Strike cooldown reduced to 6 seconds. (Source)
-Vindication frequency and duration increased and reduces all attributes by 5/10/15%. (Source)
-Pursuit of Justice is now 3 ranks and increases movement speed by 5/10/15% and reduces the chance to be hit by spells by 1/2/3%. (Source)
-Lower ranks of Flash of Light and Holy Light are now properly penalized when used with Blessing of Light. (Source)
-Cleanse and Purify range increased to 40 yards. (Source)
-The combat log will now show the health gained from rank 5 of Judgement of Light as Judgement of Light instead of Seal of Light. (Source)
-Weapon Expertise (Protection) renamed Combat Expertise, now increases expertise by 1/2/3/4/5 and total Stamina by 2/4/6/8/10%.
-Paladin seals no longer have a low chance to be dispelled if you have 3 points in Sanctified Seals.
-Judgement of Wisdom: It is no longer possible for the mana energize effect to trigger off of reapplication of the Judgement of Wisdom.
-Divine Favor: When this ability is cast immediately after a critical heal, it will no longer be removed incorrectly.
-Fanaticism (Retribution) now also reduces threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%.
-Precision (Protection) now increases spell hit chance as well.
-Seal of Vengeance: The bonus damage this ability dealt when the debuff is fully stacked on the target was incorrectly too low. It is now increased.
-Spiritual Attunement: This ability will now gain mana properly from Vampiric Embrace heals.

I'll try to keep it updated when/if there are any more changes.

-Tom Chilton, June 28 2008

 

Ragnor

Has anyone started re-estimating the dps value of stats/items now post changes and with the introduction of armor penetration.

ie: The value of crit vs ap vs +dmg vs haste vs ac penetration

Edit: Ah right there's a pretty decent graph in bella's spreadsheet

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

 

vokzhen

DPS sheet doesn't work in OOCalc. According to sources more knowledgeable than me, it's probably because OOCalc doesn't support indirect commands. The spreadsheet in unusable as of now; Er:502's everywhere.
An OOCalc-workable version would be great :d

 

Ragnor

The spreadsheet really needs s2 gear + veteran rewards + arena 2h'ers added, it's comparable to T5 almost (more crit less ap, more stm, less int) and alot of people giving ret a go in 2.3 will be filling out their current gear with pvp rewards considering it will be cheap to do so.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

 

Cromfel

Added Sigurd's DPS cycle spreadsheet and image.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

galzohar

Wouldn't a rotation based on CS whenever it's up and judging only when GCD is up in order to reseal instantly be better than all the rotations listed? Unless I'm missing something just by glancing at the numbers on the rotation spreadsheet CS>keeping SoC up>judging, but the highest DPS rotation there could judge more often with 8s cooldown on judgement while still keeping that order of priority.

So I would add a rotation to the sheet that CSs whenever it's up and judging as often as you can as long as the seal's GCD won't delay the CS.

 

GSH

Sigurd's DPS cycle spreadsheet seems to be missing a case.

In his first cycle, he occasionally Judges during the CS global cooldown. This reduces SoC uptime. Given that SoC does more DPS than Judgement (224 DPS vs 100 DPS by his numbers), wouldn't it be better to delay the Judgement by 1.5s and keep SoC uptime at 100%?

The case where Crusader Strike has priority, 8s Judgement, and 100% SoC uptime is not represented.

 

galzohar

^That's exactly what I was saying.^

 

DarKNecross

Checking it-
Okay, here's what I figured out (and I corrected a couple math errors from the previous ones)


They're so incredibly close, I'd actually probably use the 5th rotation instead of the 4th, since it has a bit more wiggle-room. So yes, the 8sec Judgement only judging when it won't interfere is probably the best choice.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Cromfel

Yeah that was the original cycle. Not like it is hard to add to the list for comparison. But is it better to loose fraction of SoC uptime and delay JoC because of that? You have time window for reseal between AA timer anyway. So the effect should be extremely minimal.



I suppose this is the case.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Prinsesa

Is this supposed to be a Retribution Paladin Megathread? I've often wondered how I should gem my sockets as Ret. I placed a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] on my meta socket, while the red sockets are getting [Bold Living Ruby], the yellow sockets are getting [Inscribed Noble Topaz] and the blues are getting [Sovereign Nightseye].

In any case, I'm *extremely* excited about the incoming threat reduction, which pretty much seals the deal for the already crotch-kickingly awesome changes.

http://armory.mmo-champion.com.nyud....63815BffMm.png

 

GSH

The general algorithm for DPS is to use your higher DPS abilities before your lower DPS ones. JoC is lower DPS than SoC. Therefore, prioritizing JoC over SoC does not make intuitive sense.