Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 196

Herzak · 07/28/08, 5:49 AM

Blizzard updated our calculators again I believe, they changed many % based abilities into fixed mana cost.

Crusader Strike is now fixed at 100 mana

Seal of Command is fixed at 57 mana

and Divine Storm is fixed at 181 mana...

other none ret related.. Holy Shock was buffed AGAIN with it's mana cost reduced...

Beta Calculator: Holy shock rank 1 = 245 mana, final rank (rank 7) = 435 mana

Live: Holy shock rank 1 = 335 mana, rank 5 = 650 mana

Offical WotLK Paladin Calculator

• Chicken · 07/28/08, 6:13 AM

Blizzard's official calculators never have shown what percentage of a base mana spell costs. Only the unofficial talent calculators do so. Because of that saying "Hey look these spells have a fixed cost on the Blizzard calculator!" doesn't really show one way or the other whether they really do.

Herzak · 07/28/08, 6:25 AM

Oh really.. I thought they always showed % based mana... my mistake!

Deimosfobos · 07/29/08, 2:52 AM

Judgments ARE on the GCD now
AoW totally destroyed
RV nerfed

Things are not looking so good now...

flyingtoastr · 07/29/08, 3:04 AM

Originally Posted by Deimosfobos

Judgments ARE on the GCD now
AoW totally destroyed
RV nerfed

Things are not looking so good now...

YouTube - New Divine Storm

^
The sole reason to bring a ret pally to every single event in game.

In all seriousness, we had a brokenly powerful talent changed to something more controllable (and still quite powerful in PvP). I think the Righteous Vengeance change went a bit far but other than that it really isn't "looking bad". Get off the QQ boat and look at the big picture; it's beta and things change often.

Deimosfobos · 07/29/08, 3:34 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

YouTube - New Divine Storm

^
The sole reason to bring a ret pally to every single event in game.

In all seriousness, we had a brokenly powerful talent changed to something more controllable (and still quite powerful in PvP). I think the Righteous Vengeance change went a bit far but other than that it really isn't "looking bad". Get off the QQ boat and look at the big picture; it's beta and things change often.

AoW is useless for pve now, and thats all we care here around here. And even for pvp is a mediocre talent at best.

A change was spected, but all those 3 nerfs, including having judgments on the GC now, will afect our dps a lot.
I really hope they change something else, 3 dps nerfs seams too much.

Btw, I saw that video before, the animation is HOT. Shame pure hotness doesn´t mean much when you are killing a new boss.

Fadaar · 07/29/08, 3:35 AM

Art of War changes were justified, however combining that with the changes to Righteous Vengeance seem a bit extreme. Granted I'm not in beta so I can't comment on how much of a boost Judgements got (damage wise), but a flat 15% bonus to crits to me seems like an extremely justifiable 45-50 point talent.

Deimosfobos · 07/29/08, 3:48 AM

Originally Posted by Fadaar

Art of War changes were justified, however combining that with the changes to Righteous Vengeance seem a bit extreme. Granted I'm not in beta so I can't comment on how much of a boost Judgements got (damage wise), but a flat 15% bonus to crits to me seems like an extremely justifiable 45-50 point talent.

We all knew a nerf was coming to AoW, the problem is that they killed it. It was a dmg talent, now is a mediocre pvp talent with no effect in our pve dps.

The ret tree is looking less atractive pve wise, now we have 7-9 spare talents we have no good place for... real dps classes have so many choices they don´t know where to put their talents. By lvl71 we´ll reach our full potencial talent wise... thats sad.

Fadaar · 07/29/08, 4:31 AM

Originally Posted by Deimosfobos

We all knew a nerf was coming to AoW, the problem is that they killed it. It was a dmg talent, now is a mediocre pvp talent with no effect in our pve dps.

The ret tree is looking less atractive pve wise, now we have 7-9 spare talents we have no good place for... real dps classes have so many choices they don´t know where to put their talents. By lvl71 we´ll reach our full potencial talent wise... thats sad.

I noticed this as well. If you go by what is currently on the Bliz calculator (the previous build) you can go as high as 65 or 66 points in Ret solely on PvE talents with something like this. Depending on where you put that last point, I'd go with 1 point in Guardian's Favor for utility's sake and this also assumes 5/5 in both Imp Might and Benediction:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

Depending on where you put that last point, I'd go with 1 point in Guardian's Favor for utility's sake and this also assumes 5/5 in both Imp Might and Benediction. For raiding I guess you could potentially drop Benediction entirely (primarily due to not having to recast seals anywhere near as often anymore) and put the points into Stoicism, finish off Guardian's Favor, and pick up BoKings as well.

Now with the Art of War changes, and assuming you use the more balanced spec from the previous paragraph (this: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator) you have 3 points that are pretty much worthless except to pick up PvP talents.

Antiock · 07/29/08, 4:48 AM

Well...at least it's easier to pick up Kings.

Or if it turns out to be worthwhile to keep Vengeance/Corruption ticking, Seals of the Pure may be valuable.

Steldemian · 07/29/08, 8:19 AM

Guys maybe i missed something...

What is the changes in Art of war?

Snoe · 07/29/08, 8:26 AM

They changed it from double damage on Crusader Strike to double damage on your next judgement. Huge nerf!

• Chicken · 07/29/08, 8:30 AM

Originally Posted by Snoe

They changed it from double damage on Crusader Strike to double damage on your next judgement. Huge nerf!

[The Art of War]. That's quite different from what you just said.

It might help to check for updates after a beta patch.

Orcdestroyer · 07/29/08, 8:40 AM

Divine Plea - Spell - World of Warcraft

Looks like that could be our mana issue solved somewhat

However with the potion nerf and Divine storm costing 20% of base mana now. It probably has only balanced these two changes.

bellator · 07/29/08, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by Orcdestroyer

Divine Plea - Spell - World of Warcraft

Looks like that could be our mana issue solved somewhat

However with the potion nerf and Divine storm costing 20% of base mana now. It probably has only balanced these two changes.

with JotW and JoW, there really isnt a mana issue for Ret. This is a mana regen ability primarily for holy paladins.

• Avitus · 07/29/08, 9:16 AM

I'm pretty sure there will be more added.

At the moment you can have 10 talents left over (you can be maxed at level 70) after taking every PvE dps increasing talent there is: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

While it's probably nice to have points to round out, I doubt that this is their plan to this degree.

One more thing which hasn't been mentioned: While it sucks to lose a pve talent for a pvp one, depending on whether the new AoW works with making Hand of Freedom make you immune to stuns (or just remove it), it might be an added raid utility for retadins (retadin = can remove stuns from tanks).

Orcdestroyer · 07/29/08, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

with JotW and JoW, there really isnt a mana issue for Ret. This is a mana regen ability primarily for holy paladins.

We are still unsure of how JotW will work in raids. If it does not always effect the paladin we are or were in serious trouble.

Steldemian · 07/29/08, 9:42 AM

Originally Posted by Chicken

[The Art of War]. That's quite different from what you just said.

It might help to check for updates after a beta patch.

Are you sure about that? cause in WoW -> Game Info doesnt say anything. And also in talents build in wow page World of Warcraft Europe -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Wrath of the Lich King Beta Talent Calculator AoW is still the same....

Foxconfessor · 07/29/08, 9:46 AM

Obviously these changes were necessary, but l think by changing AoW to yet another pvp ability they're missing a big opportunity. I play ret as a dps support class in raids currently, that's what I see it as, helping other dpsers is a big part of what makes me feel useful. With many buffs going raid-wide the support needs attention maybe more than the dps. The ret tree is starting to read like a wasteland of unimaginative abilities that reduce your chance to be hit or your chance to take damage a little bit.

Surely some consolidation is in order? I know wishlisting isn't what these forums are about but surely there is place for another support ability that brings us inline with other classes' raid wide buffs. Maybe an improved Judgements of the Wise that affects more people? Or another deep talent that empowers judgements further than 3% crit? At the moment, too much of the stuff we would be brought to a raid for is at the start of the tree, there is no meaty, build-defining support ability deep in the ret tree. Instead they are playing around with damage, when damage is actually fine with seal of blood currently, and damage is the last thing that needs their attention.

yamamoto · 07/29/08, 10:05 AM

I'm going to miss my 18k Judgements. AoW needed to be changed, not Righteous Vengeance. Im sure this will be changed though.

Danath · 07/29/08, 10:34 AM

These are the Paladin changes concerning DPS.

Retribution

* Vindication: Gives the Paladin's damaging attacks a chance to reduce the target's attributes by 10/20% for 15 seconds (was only melee attacks and 3 Pts for 5/10/15%).
* Pursuit of Justice: Reduces the chance you'll be hit by spells by 1/2% and increases movement and mounted movement speed by 8/15%. This does not stack with other movement speed increasing effects (was 3 Pts for 1/2/3% reduced chance to be hit by spells and 5/10/15% speed increase).
* Eye for an Eye: All criticals against you cause 10/20% of the damage taken to the attacker as well. The damage caused by Eye for an Eye will not exceed 50% of the Paladin's total health (was 15/30% damage return for spell attacks only).
* The Art of War: Reduces all damage taken by 1/2/3% and gives your Hand of Freedom a 33/66/100% chance to remove Stun effects.
* Righteous Vengeance: Increases critical damage bonus of your Judgement and Divine Storm spells by 5/10/15/20/25% (was 3/6/9/12/15% for all damage criticals).
* Divine Storm: Mana cost changed to 20% of base mana up from 12%.

Holy

* New Spell: Divine Plea (5 Minutes cooldown, Channeled) - While channeling this spell, you gain 50% of your total mana over 6 seconds.
* Reworked: Divine Protection (118 Mana, 5 Minutes cooldown): Reduces all damage taken by 50% for 12 seconds, but increases the time between your attacks by 50%. Once protected, the target cannot be made invulnerable by Divine Shield, Divine Protection or Hand of Protection again for 180 seconds.
* Forbearance: Now lasts 3 minutes.
* Seals: All seal spells now last 2 minutes. This does not apply to special seals like Seal of Protection or Seal of Sacrifice.

Things ARE looking good. In fact, there are mostly buffs in these changes:

Vindication, Pursuit of Justice, Imp Blessing of Might, Eye for an Eye ALL got buffed. Art of War was changed and this change makes us very difficult to crowd control with Stoicism, Pursuit of Justice, Divine Purpose, Cleanse for poison/disease/magic snares, this new AoW, the good'ol bubble...Art of War needed to be changed, end of story.
Divine Storm now has a GREAT animation and it crits for lots of damage; more importantly, we are given one new skill and a full rework of a forgotten one: Divine Plea - our Evocation - and Divine Protection - our Shield Wall!
Divine Plea will help us greatly in the mana regard and Divine Protection will be helpful for tanking purposes and of course when focused generally. Also, it doesn't share cooldown with Divine Shield anymore, although Forbearance is increased to 3 minutes.
Seals now last 2 minutes, which is GREAT and makes up for the Judgement GCD thing totally.

Now, I would like to see these following changes implemented:

- Benediction: Reduces the mana cost of all Retribution spells by 15%. Need I say anything more?
- Two Handed Weapon Specialization: Increases all damage you deal when a two-handed melee weapon is equipped by 6%. (similar to the Protection talent)
- Crusader Strike: An instant strike that deals 125% weapon damage and refresh all Judgements on the target (increasing damage to offset the limited utility of refreshing all Judgement in WOTLK raids since Holy could do it themselves).
- Righteous Vengeance: Increases the critical damage bonus of your Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm spells by 25%.

EDIT: oh, possibly also Forbearance debuff lowered to 2 minutes as 3 seems to much, honestly
Finally, I just wish we were given some talent to increase melee haste on a melee or judgement crit, both for DPS and fun purposes: everyone who has played a Warrior or a Shaman just knows how great Flurry is, and how lackluster may sometimes be swinging with a Paladin (mostly in levelling, when you don't even have Crusader Strike or the future Divine Storm).

Foxconfessor · 07/29/08, 11:10 AM

Yes, AoW may make you hard to crowd control in pvp, but how is that useful in terms of retribution dps? May as well be forgotten about for this thread's purposes.

Danath · 07/29/08, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Foxconfessor

Yes, AoW may make you hard to crowd control in pvp, but how is that useful in terms of retribution dps? May as well be forgotten about for this thread's purposes.

That is true but Retribution, luckily, isn't a PvE-only tree and AoW was imbalanced for DPS purposes as it was. We should still see how will be our damage with Imp Bom, Righteous Vengeance and AoW-lack changes...Also, remember that Divine Plea will clearly help us in PvE dps.

Foxconfessor · 07/29/08, 11:21 AM

Why would divine plea help ret dps? I generally neither have the need nor the inclination to trade dps time for mana on a raid boss encounter currently (even if I could), it'll only be useful because it's faster than drinking between trash pulls.

Prinsesa · 07/29/08, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Foxconfessor

Why would divine plea help ret dps? I generally neither have the need nor the inclination to trade dps time for mana on a raid boss encounter currently (even if I could), it'll only be useful because it's faster than drinking between trash pulls.

You're laboring under the assumption that Ret DPS needs help with mana at all.