Wrl

Just a weird calculation mechanic I discovered a while back. Certain conditional multipliers such as Crusade will apply to Seal of Blood and Seal of Command twice.

With sanctity aura off, I was hitting for more than 35% of my white damage when using a low dps, low damage range weapon. I created a pretty big sample size and found that it was hitting noticeably harder (I believe it was 3%, but I don't have the numbers anymore).

I believe that crusade first applies to your base melee damage, then when blood determines its damage it applies the modifier again.

I don't believe this is the case for Sanctity Aura, because that shows up on your character sheet specifically.

If anyone wanted to run this test again to back this up, that would rock.

 

flyingtoastr

2.3 Mana costs are:
Exorcism (Rank VII): 340 mana
Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV): 440 mana

Consecrate mana costs remained constant.

Crusader Strike remained at 236 mana on both Live and the PTR (for myself) which somehow works out to be ~6% of my base mana (as opposed to the 8% that is advertised). I must have something wrong here, but the fact remains that the cost is constant.

Good post BTW.

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Arkhubar

Thanks, I'll go in and adjust all my numbers presently.

I just wish I had useful personal data to back it up, I've had the first theory for months, just variety of things have conspired against me to prevent me from having a WWS log really worth a damn, and now I'm guildless. :P

edit: updated based on new mana costs. Unless I'm crazy Exorcism is the same, HoW is now a good amount less and CS is a good amount more in MPS costs. Makes mana generation even more critical than before.

 

Arkhubar

Ok, attempt to model WF in the spreadsheet is as follows, double check my thoughts:

Add 20% of whatever the original benefit of +dmg/str was (if WF is true) for the following abilities:

White DPS, SoB DPS, SoC DPS.

So for +dmg only SoC benefits to +dmg get a boost, for str +dmg gets a boost. The coefficients I get with WF on are .490719 SoB and .763424 SoC in terms of how much str 1 dmg is equal to. Again, assuming Kings and Enh shaman, without enh the numbers go up to .539791 and .839766. edit: fun fact, without WF, without enh shaman, +dmg exceeds the value of str for retadins using SoC assuming you can use Cons CS HoW SoC JoC every time without fail.

Once I make sure most of the basic assumptions are right and I didn't miss anything silly I'll upload the spreadsheet (anyone got a good method to do that?)

 

Artaxz

Do we have any idea what value to place for each state for purposes of itemization? For instance, the enhancement shaman thread gives fairly well tested values (2.0 str, 1.0 Ap, 1.61 crit, 1.17 hit I believe). I fully understand that STR would be the stat given the most weight (perhaps 2.2 based on the previous listed figures), while agi and crit would be fairly low. As a BE, haste is worth about the same as crit I believe, but I have no real idea on how to prioritize gear.

My guild is asking me to experiment with ret in 2.3, and I have access to any gear. What I am really asking for is item values to use with Lootzor I suppose. My ret gear has some BT trash drops, and pretty much the best from TK/SSC (1800 ap, 20 crit, some haste, and hit capped). I would think with the 8% crit in the ret tree that I would have 100% uptime with vengeance, and could just stack STR and haste.

I looked at T6 ret and it is underwhelming. Any geared ret paladins that can offer gear choices?

http://plaguelands.com/?page_id=298

 

Prepared

I managed to load a development version of OOo which runs some VB script stuff just fine. I did receive an error on enable macros, but the buttons actually worked. However, the calculations are still off, and I get a lot of 502 errors all over the place. This makes me think the errors there are independent of the actual macros.

 

Cromfel

I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.

So far it looks like this...

Judgement of Light
Rogue 142 HPS
Warrior (A) 55 HPS
Shaman (En) 101 HPS

Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)

Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Ragnor

The melee group makeup really depends on the total raid makeup, obviously you are looking at total raid dps. If one of the rogues is daggers they would be the first to go from that group probably, of course this assuming you can slot them in somewhere else with lotp,bs, tsa etc otherwise it's probably not worth it.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

bellator

Have been spending some time this evening on the dps model.

Unfortunately most of that was spent on creating an "I Win" button in which it would analyse every combination of item to come out with the perfect gear. Unfortunately i overestimated the processing power of my computer and when the timer i had built in to keep track of it's progress told me i had 50 million millenia left until the calculation was done i decided it wasn't worth it. Even filtering out items < item level 140 still left me with an 80million combination / 37 day calculation.

On the plus side learnt some new coding, so implementing a nice new section which will compare individual items against all items of the same type in the database. Not a universal theory unfortunately but a nice extra. Will try to get it out tomorrow.

 

flyingtoastr

The problem with saying "JoW gives x mana per 5 seconds" is that JoW depends greatly on your rate of attack and the kinds of damage you're doing. In other words its entirely dependant on your raid makeup and the specs of everyone hitting the mob. I had a WWS a while back (I think its deleted by now) of a Mag raid where you can see just how much of a difference there is between say a mage (spamming spells) versus a spriest (dots and such). In fact, there are huge differences in spec as well, our destro lock had almost triple the procs as an affliction lock.

I think as a blanket statement you could say JoW restores a ton of mana. But coming up with exact numbers for every class and spec in the game, not counting outside variables, would be a very difficult if not impossible task.

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bellator

Yes torch of the damned is better than cataclysm's. More so for SoC than SoB, but still better in both.


I'm guessing to work the mana % you calculated the 236 mana cost based on what you mana bar reads when you are completely nakes/untalented etc. However this is not Blizzard means by base mana. If you hover over you intellect when naked etc it will say "Increases mana by X". Take this number away from your mana pool to get your "base mana". This will probably correct the 6% to 8%


My model calculates increase in gains based on itemisation increase. Will try to pull out the comparison figures when i have a minute. General rule of thumb is max hit, get crit to keep veng up then max Str for SoC and Str/Haste for SoB.

 

Veritas17

Question - have we figured out yet if the new vindication change effects boss mobs? This is part of my case with my guild and trying to justify the use of a retadin in the guild. My guild is sorely short sighted when it comes to off-spec whatever you want to call it specs in a raiding environment.

I apologize if this is slightly off topic i'm not quite sure where else to put this. Im also on the pve ptr's and the pvp ptrs if someone wanted to run numbers with me. Im a BE as well.

 

flyingtoastr

That did it, thanks. Yes CS is still 8% of your base mana (well 7.991%, but close enough).

Nothing wrong with questions. And unless its changed significantly since I last checked Vindication only can affect mobs that are CCable. In other words, every time it would proc on a boss you'll just get a nice big "Immune" message.

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ein3360

That's perfect, thank you!

 

Cromfel

And this is why we should have little rule of thumb examples for everyone to see? They are hard to comprehend, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try dont you think? We dont need to give exact statement, we just need to give something that people can say they gain.

As I said, if you have better way of presenting it for common good, Im more than happy to hear.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

flyingtoastr

I'm not saying its a bad idea or anything. I will try to get as much data from any fight I can keep Wisdom up for to make a list to help, and I suggest everyone else does the same. But if we're going to do this people need to understand that your mileage will vary by a great amount depending on your raid and the fight. The best I think would be to produce a range of values for each class, such as "you might get a high of x mp5 (tank and spank) to a low of y mp5 (fights where wisdom may not be up all the time/multiple mobs/etc)". It will be a ton of work to get data for most classes and specs, so it might be a while before we can get anything near definitive results.

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Cromfel

Well all you need to do is see their prefered DPS cycles and see when their cycle resets. That way you know how many JoW proccing abilitys you have over period of time. For melee it isnt that simple, but for casters it is. Not like their spell rotations and spellcasts vary much.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

flyingtoastr

Bleh, I've always been a fan of experimental data versus raw theory, but that would work. The only problem that I can see is that JoW is still a 50% proc chance rather than a PPM, so regardless of how we find the data it will end up being a range rather than a flat value.

But for producing 'ideal' regen from JoW, your system would work well Cromfel. I'll start looking into it.

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• Avitus

Was wondering when a thread likes this will pop up on EJ

A couple things I noticed so far:

I think this is a bit too general of a statement to just put there, especially in an OP. It depends on so many things like gear (even "T5 level gear" can vary vastly. White damage boosting stats like AP vs spelldamage), group composition (drenai shammy = 1% spell hit), windfury and so on.

So just saying "it's 5% more damage in Tier 5 gear" is a bit off :P

Also consider with the PTR 2.3 change of Precision giving us 3% more spell hit, JoC might become a bit more powerful. Food for thought anyways.

I'd consider letting different paladins run some tests, (3 min tests are way too unreliable, you'd need to test over hours of combat) in different gear to see if you can reach a more reliable number.

 

Cromfel

Yeah you are right. We just need time to adjust things. Those were just few things I had in pocket as this topic was requested. So it will be adjusted to reflect better the actualy downranking benefits/losses, just give me some time.

Thanks for the input tho! This is exactly what we need to keep doing

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

grover