escariot

Unless it was just changed in 2.3, the buff duration is 9s I believe. Done right the party can have wf the entire fight and GoA around 80% realistically. It cuts their dps a bit, but not terribly so unless you consider the mana strain.

Having said that, I agree it shouldn't be done in most situations simply because the buff from GoA is rarely worth the extra mana cost. The new clearcasting talent definitely helps the mana situation but it's not going to be enough even with SR. The only way a shaman can realistically totem weave an entire fight is with a shadow priest in the party, and now your melee dps group is looking a bit strange (obviously wf on a 5th melee dps would far outweigh a shadow priest to allow totem weaving). It's a bit more understandable in a 10-man environment depending on the party setup simply because you can't always get an ideal group.

 

• Karakas

Err what DPS loss? At most you're using a GCD every 10 seconds on Stormstrike and every 6 on a Shock, surely the rest you can keep totem twisting up.

And with Shamanistic Rage and JoW, mana should never be an issue for Enhancement Shaman.

 

Pitbuller

97agi(imp totems/kings) with 85% uptime gives whole party around 3.3%more crit. This contribute almoust four time more damage than earth shocking. Drop extra shock(earth) if mana or GBC dosnt allow to twist.

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

SomeoneRandom

Enhancement shaman are also one of the only classes that from what I have seen do not have to pop mana potions.... so if you have a lazy shaman who isn't totem twisting simply because of mana... find a new one or educate him on the basic costs of raiding.

 

CaptBooyah

So now I've been ret for almost a week now, it was a very disappointing start in TK, dying on trash, nubbing out on Alar and a mediocre performance on Solarian. I wasn't in a melee group, so I had to rely on a resto shaman to feed my totems which were out of range half the time or she just didnt drop them. Then I set myself up in the tank group for void reaver (as we had two paladin tanks that week) along with the enhancement shaman and the warrior MT for pure threat production. To my surprise, I took number 1 on the charts. I also had no problems with mana either as I was getting circle of healing spam from the MT healer =]

The following saturday, we practiced on kael a bit.... then went off to SSC after respawn for an hour. Managed to get a WWS report for this.

Hydross + Leo

For SSC I had the enhancement shaman in my group right up until leo where he switched onto his warlock to tank leo's demon form. If I had the WF totems going in Leo, I reckon I wouldve easily been up there with the top 3.

From this past week of not being in a melee group and then being in one... I'd have to say that all a raid leader needs to do is give it a chance. You'd be surprised how much a paladins personal dps will rise.

 

panny

Popping mana pots means no haste pots. Mana shouldn't be an issue though, if it is, get the shaman to twist rank 2 WF totem instead.

 

Zai

Has there been any discussion on decent weapon enchants for retadins? Now that I finally have a twohander worth enchanting I'm looking around for enchants, but so far it feels pretty disappointing.

I haven't done any math whatsoever yet, but Savagery feels like the best bet to slap on a weapon.

 

galzohar

Yes there was. Roll a few pages back or something

 

Mearis

Can you explain why? Totem twisting seems like a huge boost for the group, and it requires a small bit of micromanagement - how does 1 extra GCD every 10 seconds lower your DPS? Twisting GoA + WF is pretty huge with a group of 3 rogues and 1 fury warrior.

 

Ayreon

Yes there was and if I recall correctly, the general consensus was that the differences between Mongoose, Savagery and Executioner are minimal (~5-10 DPS, at most).

Personally, after trying Mongoose for a week, I went back to Savagery. Yes, on paper, Mongoose may outperform it..but on paper, you don't see the procs that are wasted because you have to stop attacking for whatever reason (boss switches phases, resets aggro etc.), or procs wasted because it procced off a killing blow. Savagery is there for each and every hit, it's there when I need it, and I like it.

 

Wh0areume

Just throwing this out there: I have huge mana problems in all encounters.

- I keep rank1 concecrate up for about 80% of the fight, and max rank whenever AW is active. (I have the darkmoon trinket, so I always feel compelled to take advantage of the +80 spell dmg)
- If i'm fighting a demon/undead boss, i exercise whenever the CD is up.
- max rank seal of command, judging every 8 sec, (thinking of downranking this, though, considering the judgement isn't a very good % of my damage)
- Pop mana pots on cooldown, etc, etc.
- JoW is always put up by one of the healers (altho it seems to get pushed off by other debuffs??)

Here is the spec I raid with: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


We tend to go light on pallys recently due to attendance issues and bringing shamen instead, so i usually have to sacrifice one or two crucial pally buffs for BoW. (What i tend to do is give myself 10 min salv in the beginning, and switch to might after the tank has a significant lead.)


Anyway... should I ditch the R1 consecrate?
Or just downrank to R4 or 5 of SoCommand?
Should I put 2 points into Divine Intellect instead of Imp might?

I've started to buy dark runes, but I hate using the healthstone CD.

 

Zurm

DI is never the right answer. Mana problems stem more from the balance of mana spent vs returned, not from how much you start with (while it helps, its not a real solution).

I guess the first question to ask is whether or not the other pally(s) in the raid are dropping judgement of wisdom on the target. On most fights where I don't have to move a lot, JoW gives me upwards of 100 mp5 easily. Being horde, I can't really comment on your use of max rank SoC versus downranking, I never run into any issues with SoB.

 

Fiola

Do you run SWS?


I don't think SWS is completely accurate for damage done by seals (due to SJ giving mana rebates), but it should give you a ranking of

Exorcism
R1 Consecrate
CS

and their relative efficiency.


Pioritize abilities based on their efficiency (because you're mana limited, so using your mana better will let you get better damage with your current gear no matter what the fight is).


Divine Intellect is *definitely* not going to help (for raid DPS), since it's a static bonus of a few hundred mana, tops. Looking at your current armory, you get something like 75~ mana per point ... Over a 6 minute fight, that's not much. Mana regen is what you need for higher sustainability.



Anyways, looking at your armory, I suspect that you don't have enough +dmg (55 with your current gear; 135 with Crusade card?) to make Exorcism or Consecrate worthwhile (especially without JotC). R1 Consecrate may still be fine when you have both JotC and JoW up since it's a 120 mana spell with a 50% chance to return 74 mana, but Exorcism gets somewhere around 2.2~ DPM in my +dmg focused gear. It's not going to be any better in pure AP gear.






On a different topic:

Does SoB proc off of WF? Does it use the WF attack's white damage (WF has bonus AP for the extra swing) or your normal white damage?

 

Noraj

On a fight where the mob isn't removing my mana, I use Avenging Wrath on its cooldowns, and I'm judging and using Crusader Strike on every cooldown, I can last 10 minutes with Blessing of Wisdom. When I uprank Seal of Command to maximum, my time to zero mana goes down to three or four minutes. The DPS difference is absolutely minimal. Now, when the 2.3.2 planned changes for Sanctified Judgements goes into effect, upranking will be a much more viable option as you'll be getting 80% of the mana cost of SoCom back as opposed to 50%.

That being said, start trying to fix the mana issues by downranking before spending gold on a respec.


Totem Twisting is a bit of a benefit, but should not be relied on. Unless I'm mistaken, the effect has been listed as not working as intended, and will be corrected in the next patch.

As to the Moongoose Vs. Savagery Vs. Executioner question it ultimately boils down to where you spend the majority of your time and the balance quality of your raid. With a mob suffering from five Sunders / a 5 point Expose Armor, Faerie Fire, and Curse of Recklessness, an Executioner proc brings a tremendous amount to the table. If you're just PvPing, the proc will mean considerably less.

"The question is not how far we are going to take it... the question is, do you possess the constitution to go as far as needed?" - Il Duce

 

Renaud

Have their been any comparisons between [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse] and [World Breaker]

I will have my choice, but I would prefer not to get both. Does the crit from the WB outweigh the haste? I am a bloodelf, but currently have no static haste items, or is DPS/Top End Damage > all?

[Edit: Evidently I am too moronic to understand how to do the Wowhead links, if someone could inform me I would be appreciative.]
[Edit2: Nevermind, I was thinking too hard]

 

Fiola

Use "item" tags

[_item] ITEM NAME [/item] << Remove "_" in the first tag

[Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
[World Breaker]


I think the names have to be exact for it to work.

 

Wh0areume

Wow Web Stats

I think every one of the attempts i was almost OOM after 1-2 minutes.
A healer would put JoW up, but then it would vanish.

I'm thinking that even though CS refreshes it, it doesn't move the debuff up in position, so it gets pushed off by everyone else's debuffs.
No one was sure what was going on, because we always saw it go up, then it would disappear.

Also in the Gorefiend attempts, the shaman was dropping FR totem instead of mana spring, which hurt.

 

Oxudes

Hey, popping in here again, would just like some advice on choosing between [Red Belt of Battle] and [Chain of Unleashed Rage]. For raiding of course.

edit: oh, I'm at about 1690 AP, 31.7% crit, hit capped unbuffed.

 

Buanna

It was only mentioned as not intended. There were no projections given as to fixing it.

 

Fiola

Using your WWS:

Average CS - 1511 damage (236 mana) - 6.4 DPM

Average Exorcism - 1110 damage (340 mana, assuming you used max rank) - 3.2 DPM.


Figuring out mana efficiency of JoC is a little tricky, since technically you could just run SoC R1 and judge it every 29 seconds, or you could judge every 8~ seconds with max rank, but we'll just play with the current numbers.

Your WWS shows 8 SoC procs for 1.4k average and 10 JoCs for 480. Assuming that's max rank JoC (238 mana, -119 SJ, +124~ judgment; 243 total mana), you did an average of 1600 damage for 243 mana, or 6.58 DPM.

You could get the same seal damage with SoC R1 - looking at 10 casts of SoC R1, you would average 20.36 DPM from the seal damage. (If you don't need 10 casts of SoC R1 to get 8 SoC procs, then you end up with some really obscene efficiency number)


For consecrate, I don't know what rank you used - but it did an average of 47 damage, or 376 damage over 8 seconds. If that was R1 (120 mana), that has a DPM of 3.13, which is lower than that of Exorcism.

Recap using your WWS numbers:

CS - 6.4 DPM
Exorcism - 3.2 DPM
Consecrate - 3.13 DPM (assuming R1)

R6 SoC + JoC - 6.58 DPM
Theoretical SoC R1 - 20.36 DPM

I separated SoC/JoC from the other abilities since they're a different type of mechanic. Differentiating between seal and judgement mana costs is kind of arbitrary.


So if running OOM caused you to use CS less, then you should cast Consecrate and Exorcism less often. For max DPM, I think R1 SoC (no judgement) + CS every CD + JoW should be close to the best efficiency rotation.


Recalculation using JoW: (-37 mana cost per hit)

CS - 7.59
Exorcism - 3.66 DPM
Consecrate - 4.53 DPM (assuming R1)

R6 SoC + JoC - 9.07 DPM
Theoretical SoC R1 - 44.09 DPM

For mana efficiency, I think the theorycraft math here suggests you should stick to CS + your preferred rank of SoC.

(If you can guarantee JotC + JoW, R1 Exorcism might have high enough efficiency to be worth using)

 

Aramul

Since SoC damage can be maintained with just a r1 SoC every ~30 seconds, the overall mana cost and DPM of JoC can be seperated from SoC by taking all mana spent on SoC/Judgement, and subtracting the cost of r1 SoC every 30 seconds.

Using Afkbot's WWS
The fight lasted 2:56, SoC r1 would need to be cast 6 times during the fight to maintain 100% SoC uptime. SoC dealt 32898 total damage.
SoC DPM = 32898 / (6 * 55) = 32898 / 330 = 99.6

With 16 casts of SoC/JoC during the fight, actual mana spent on Seal/Judge (assuming max rank) is 16 * 243 - 330 = 3558. JoC dealt 10657 total damage.
JoC DPM = 10657 / 3558 = 2.995

Assuming JoW was up (it was), theoretical mana spent drops by 37*16=592.
JoC DPM = 10657 / (3558 - 592) = 10657 / 2966 = 3.593

Edit: Didn't listen to my own advice on seperation.

 

DarKNecross

For Item vs. Item comparisons, I highly recommend people look at MaxDPS.com. It may not be quite perfect now, but it's about as good as an opinion you'll get from anyone else.

Jin'rohk - haste is amazing as a Blood Elf paladin.

Red Belt of Battle - the crit scales your DPS more than the Armor pen.

http://crimson-guild.com