[Shaman] PVE Healing Guide - Page 2

tbsp · 10/24/07, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

Healing Wave 8:
3.0s 440mana 1092avg base heal
61 eff spell lvl.

(1092+1900(3/3.5)(61/70) ) = 2762.3 healing /440 mana
healing/mana = 6.61

Chain Heal Rank 4:
2.50s 413mana 648avg base heal

(648+ (1900+87)(2.5/3.5) ) *1.2 *1.1 = 2728.8 healing / 413 mana
healing/mana = 6.60

I suspect the first calculation should be:
(1092+1900(3/3.5)(61/70) ) *1.1 = 2762.3 / 440 mana
healing/mana = 6.28

Looking at different values of +healing, the point at which chain heal (rank4) becomes more HPM efficient than HW (rank8), is only +1100 healing. Without the chain heal totem it's at +1600 healing, and using the HW totem (+88) it's +2000 healing.

Daidalos · 10/24/07, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by tbsp

Originally Posted by Daidalos
Healing Wave 8:
3.0s 440mana 1092avg base heal
61 eff spell lvl.

(1092+1900(3/3.5)(61/70) ) = 2762.3 healing /440 mana
healing/mana = 6.61

Chain Heal Rank 4:
2.50s 413mana 648avg base heal

(648+ (1900+87)(2.5/3.5) ) *1.2 *1.1 = 2728.8 healing / 413 mana
healing/mana = 6.60

I suspect the first calculation should be:
(1092+1900(3/3.5)(61/70) ) *1.1 = 2762.3 / 440 mana
healing/mana = 6.28

Looking at different values of +healing, the point at which chain heal (rank4) becomes more HPM efficient than HW (rank8), is only +1100 healing. Without the chain heal totem it's at +1600 healing, and using the HW totem (+88) it's +2000 healing.

Oops yes I included purification in my calculation but did not write it in. Good catch.
(1092+1900(3/3.5)(61/70) ) *1.1 = 2762.3 / 440 mana
healing/mana = 6.28
is actually the untalented mana cost of HW. So I messed up here by not writing in purification multiplier (although I did include it in the calculation) AND the mana cost is actually 418.
Sooo the corrected form is:

(1092+1900(3/3.5)(61/70) ) *1.1 = 2762.3 healing /418 mana
healing/mana = 6.61

(648+ (1900+87)(2.5/3.5) ) *1.2 *1.1 = 2728.8 healing / 413 mana
healing/mana = 6.60

My crossover points are right but I wasn't carefull when I typed the equations in sorry for the confusion.

Coztomba · 10/25/07, 1:03 AM

I'd like to see T6 2 and 4pc bonuses added for those efficiency calculations also.

Daidalos · 10/25/07, 2:18 AM

Originally Posted by Coztomba

I'd like to see T6 2 and 4pc bonuses added for those efficiency calculations also.

The new/old 2 pc t6 bonus or the current one? Since they seem to be going back to the 10% reduction to the cost of chain heal for 2 pc

Ephian · 10/25/07, 10:53 AM

Does anyone have a numerical value for stats?
Right now, I have:
Spell heal: 1
Int: .08
Spell Crit: .1
Spell Haste: 0
MP5: 2.7

These numbers are from the add-on Enchaner. I was looking for confirmation or an update on these numbers.

Daidalos · 10/25/07, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Ephian

Does anyone have a numerical value for stats?
Right now, I have:
Spell heal: 1
Int: .08
Spell Crit: .1
Spell Haste: 0
MP5: 2.7

These numbers are from the add-on Enchaner. I was looking for confirmation or an update on these numbers.

[Shaman] Resto-Spec
There is a good post about haste here.

The problem with putting values on stats is that it depends what you do. Unlike dps classes that usually have a set rotation they work through giving them a pretty good approx value of dif stats, healers do not have a set heal they always use or situation where more of a stat is always desireable.

+heal is always good but as things scale sometimes another stat can be better.

int is nice but once you have a good amount and are not running out of mana stacking more only really adds additional plus healing.

Spell crit. This can be usefull when healing tanks that aren't armor capped in addition to the extra healing done. If however you select a heal rank according to health defecit of the target a crit will mostly overheal.

Haste can be quite good if you have the mana regen to support it.

mp5 is great until you are no longer running out of mana. At which point it dramatically losses value.

Basically I could type in my typical scenarios and come up with value for me but it will vary greatly depending on your role and your gear. I stacked alot of mp5 till I have about ~200 mp5 regen(i'm accoutning mana saving effects such a fathom-brooch, and the additonal gains from potting with alchemist stone ) . I am no longer stacking any mp5 and I try for +heal and haste now (i'm sitting at 2k +healing and 35 haste rating). A shaman in blues ignoring mp5 for +healing and haste would be setting him self up for failure though.

If you want a typical value for a shaman doing heroics / kara/ ZA the values you posted seem reasonable. My values in mostly Hyjal/BT gear are very different though.

◊ Sarutobi · 10/25/07, 6:10 PM

Two quick comments about the macro section:

1: You can swap totems during spell casts to enhance the effect of spells with casting times without invoking the GCD e.g.

/cast Chain Heal
/equip Totem of Healing Rains

2: For macros such as the one below which you provided, you only need to have Lesser Healing Wave in there once. Just remove the ';' in the command, and it will stop at the first conditional which is true.

#showtooltip Lesser Healing Wave
/cast [modifier:alt,target=player] Lesser Healing Wave; [target=target,help] Lesser Healing Wave; [target=targettarget,help] Lesser Healing Wave; [target=player] Lesser Healing Wave

So the above macro can become:

#showtooltip Lesser Healing Wave
/cast [modifier:alt,target=player] [target=mouseover,help] [help] [target=targettarget,help] [target=player] Lesser Healing Wave
/equip Totem of the Plains

This way fewer characters are being used for the actual healing spell portion of the macro allowing you to work within the 255 character limit and add in portions where you can equip a totem to add healing/reduce mana cost/etc and even activate a trinket like [Lower City Prayerbook] that you want to activate on every cooldown.

Coztomba · 10/26/07, 1:14 AM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

The new/old 2 pc t6 bonus or the current one? Since they seem to be going back to the 10% reduction to the cost of chain heal for 2 pc

The 10% reduction to Ch + 5% more healing. Even with 3 stacks of healing way, CH (on only 1 target) must be getting close to healing wave in terms of efficiency with that bonus.

whave · 10/26/07, 5:43 AM

While I loved this guide, I just have to point out: shamans, not shamen.

Teewee · 10/26/07, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by whave

While I loved this guide, I just have to point out: shamans, not shamen.

I think it's supposed to be just shaman, singular and plural.

• Raut · 10/26/07, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Teewee

I think it's supposed to be just shaman, singular and plural.

Shamanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
shaman - Columbia Encyclopedia article about shaman

Perhaps not the best sources, but at least it's something.

Daidalos · 10/26/07, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Coztomba

The 10% reduction to Ch + 5% more healing. Even with 3 stacks of healing way, CH (on only 1 target) must be getting close to healing wave in terms of efficiency with that bonus.

with 2100 healing 0 haste +87 healing from relic (crit is not factored in)

			Mana cst	Avg.Heal	Heal/mana	Heal/sec	Heal/s/mana
Stats1					
					
Chain Heal 4 (3 tar)4pct6	372	5361	14.41	2144.28	5.77
Chain Heal 4 (3 tar)2pct6	372	5105	13.73	2042.17	5.49
Chain Heal 5 (3 tar)4pct6	462	5933	12.85	2373.25	5.14
Chain Heal 4 (2 tar)4pct6	372	4595	12.35	1837.95	4.94
Chain Heal 4 (3 tar)	413	5105	12.35	2042.17	4.94
Chain Heal 5 (3 tar)2pct6	462	5651	12.24	2260.24	4.90
Chain Heal 4 (2 tar)2pct6	372	4376	11.77	1750.43	4.71
Chain Heal 5 (2 tar)4pct6	462	5086	11.01	2034.21	4.41
Chain Heal 5 (3 tar)	513	5651	11.01	2260.24	4.41
Chain Heal 4 (2 tar)	413	4376	10.59	1750.43	4.24
Chain Heal 5 (2 tars)2pct6	462	4843	10.49	1937.35	4.20
Earth Shield 3 (10 chrg)	900	9000	10.00	225.00	0.25
Chain Heal 5 (2 tar)	513	4843	9.44	1937.35	3.78
Healing Wave 08 (3 hway)	418	3453	8.26	1381.37	3.30
Chain Heal 4 (1 tar)4pct6	372	3063	8.24	1225.30	3.29
Chain Heal 4 (1 tar)2pct6	372	2917	7.84	1166.96	3.14
Healing Wave 12 (3 hway)	684	5302	7.75	2120.93	3.10
Chain Heal 5 (1 tar)4pct6	462	3390	7.34	1356.14	2.94
Chain Heal 4 (1 tar)	413	2917	7.06	1166.96	2.82
Healing Wave 08		418	2927	7.00	1170.65	2.80
Chain Heal 5 (1 tar)2pct6	462	3229	6.99	1291.56	2.80
Healing Wave 12		684	4494	6.57	1797.40	2.63
Healing Wave 10		589	3832	6.51	1532.77	2.60
Healing Wave 09		532	3447	6.48	1378.71	2.59
Healing Wave 11		622	4012	6.45	1604.68	2.58
Chain Heal 5 (1 tar)	513	3229	6.29	1291.56	2.52
Lesser Healing Wave 6	361	1964	5.44	1309.00	3.63
Lesser Healing Wave 7	418	2213	5.29	1475.47	3.53

As you can see with 4 pc t6 chain heal rank 4 is coming very close to healing wave rank 8 with 3 stacks of healing way. I picked 2100 +healing as a reasonable amount for a BT resto shaman. You could certainly hit 2300-2400 depending what you go for with full t6.
The crossover point is ~2200 with the +87 CH relic equipped for CHrank4 1target and 4 pc bonus.

Coztomba · 10/26/07, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Daidalos

with 2100 healing 0 haste +87 healing from relic (crit is not factored in)

			Mana cst	Avg.Heal	Heal/mana	Heal/sec	Heal/s/mana
Stats1					
					
Chain Heal 4 (3 tar)4pct6	372	5361	14.41	2144.28	5.77
Chain Heal 4 (3 tar)2pct6	372	5105	13.73	2042.17	5.49
Chain Heal 5 (3 tar)4pct6	462	5933	12.85	2373.25	5.14
Chain Heal 4 (2 tar)4pct6	372	4595	12.35	1837.95	4.94
Chain Heal 4 (3 tar)	413	5105	12.35	2042.17	4.94
Chain Heal 5 (3 tar)2pct6	462	5651	12.24	2260.24	4.90
Chain Heal 4 (2 tar)2pct6	372	4376	11.77	1750.43	4.71
Chain Heal 5 (2 tar)4pct6	462	5086	11.01	2034.21	4.41
Chain Heal 5 (3 tar)	513	5651	11.01	2260.24	4.41
Chain Heal 4 (2 tar)	413	4376	10.59	1750.43	4.24
Chain Heal 5 (2 tars)2pct6	462	4843	10.49	1937.35	4.20
Earth Shield 3 (10 chrg)	900	9000	10.00	225.00	0.25
Chain Heal 5 (2 tar)	513	4843	9.44	1937.35	3.78
Healing Wave 08 (3 hway)	418	3453	8.26	1381.37	3.30
Chain Heal 4 (1 tar)4pct6	372	3063	8.24	1225.30	3.29
Chain Heal 4 (1 tar)2pct6	372	2917	7.84	1166.96	3.14
Healing Wave 12 (3 hway)	684	5302	7.75	2120.93	3.10
Chain Heal 5 (1 tar)4pct6	462	3390	7.34	1356.14	2.94
Chain Heal 4 (1 tar)	413	2917	7.06	1166.96	2.82
Healing Wave 08		418	2927	7.00	1170.65	2.80
Chain Heal 5 (1 tar)2pct6	462	3229	6.99	1291.56	2.80
Healing Wave 12		684	4494	6.57	1797.40	2.63
Healing Wave 10		589	3832	6.51	1532.77	2.60
Healing Wave 09		532	3447	6.48	1378.71	2.59
Healing Wave 11		622	4012	6.45	1604.68	2.58
Chain Heal 5 (1 tar)	513	3229	6.29	1291.56	2.52
Lesser Healing Wave 6	361	1964	5.44	1309.00	3.63
Lesser Healing Wave 7	418	2213	5.29	1475.47	3.53

As you can see with 4 pc t6 chain heal rank 4 is coming very close to healing wave rank 8 with 3 stacks of healing way. I picked 2100 +healing as a reasonable amount for a BT resto shaman. You could certainly hit 2300-2400 depending what you go for with full t6.
The crossover point is ~2200 with the +87 CH relic equipped for CHrank4 1target and 4 pc bonus.

Awesome info thanks

galzohar · 10/26/07, 10:43 PM

I don't think heal/mana/sec have any practical nor theoretical meaning though. It just doesn't have any meaining... The "units" of this value are HP / (mana*sec) but mana*sec is a meaningless value.

Shae · 10/27/07, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by galzohar

I don't think heal/mana/sec have any practical nor theoretical meaning though. It just doesn't have any meaining... The "units" of this value are HP / (mana*sec) but mana*sec is a meaningless value.

It seems practical to combine both mana and time efficiencies into a single metric for sorting a table with a range of heal, mana and time values. Given two spells with similar heal/mana, the one with higher heal/time would generally be considered more useful wouldn't it? Obviously you can't ignore the other metrics when determining the ideal spell for a specific situation, but the principle seems sound for general ranking.

galzohar · 10/27/07, 4:32 PM

A simple exlanation for why I see no practical use for this stat is because I can't see a situation in which you will pick the heal with highest heal/(mana*sec) just because it's the highest heal/(mana*sec). While you need a good combination of heal/mana and heal/sec, the heal/(mana*sec) doesn't tell you that this is the heal you want.

If a heal heals for 1/2 for 1/2 the mana cost it would have exactly the same heal/(sec*mana) as the original heal, while being clearly inferior.

If anything maybe heal^2/(mana*sec) would mean something but TBH I doubt it. It would definitely be a better measurement than heal/(sec*mana) though.

The comparison between heal/sec and heal/mana is a lot more complicated and fight-dependant than this. Sometimes you need a lot of heal/sec more than heal/mana and sometimes the opposite. You always need both but how much gain in heal/sec is worth how much loss in heal/mana is very dependant on a lot of things, and a simple value like heal(sec*mana) or even heal^2/(sec*mana) will not due any good for helping you make your choice. At the end every fight has a heal/sec requirement and a heal/mana requirement, and you have to meet both - and looking at that measurement doesn't tell you anything that helps you see if you meet those requirements.

Moshne · 10/27/07, 7:19 PM

Fire Totems
Searing Totem was fixed so that it will not break crowd control spells. It costs very little mana, provides constant DPS, and with the changes in 2.3 providing spell power to healing gear, is a very useful totem.

Searing Totem also has one situational use that is a lifesaver. On fights where the boss has some kind of sudden aggro dump (such as Leotheras), the boss will quite often go after the Searing Totem if it is in range, giving the tank extra time to pick him up.

The part about not breaking CC is only slightly true. At this point, the totem will usually not target something that is already CCed and attack it, however, once it has a target, if it is CCed after the totem has "chosen" it, it will continue to attack it. As a general rule, I do not drop Searing Totem until CC has been established, as the random breaks here and there don't outweigh 1-2 extra bolts of damage.

Also, on the subject of Earth Shields, there is a lot we can do with this subject. Another thing to note is that the individual "procs" are treated as separate spells. Things such as the [Fel Reaver's Piston] will proc off Earth Shield if the person with the shield has it equipped (as you often will in a pvp type situation, and I've been known to throw it on myself during Nightbane air phases.)

You mention that the +heal is calculated when cast, which is true, it might be helpful to note the trinkets that are useful for "super-charging" it.

[Xi'ri's Gift]: While on face a damage trinket, the +heal is actually more than most of the lower level trinkets like [Oshu'gun Relic]
[Zandalarian Hero Charm]: while level 60, still has more +heal than most (if not all) trinkets we have available to us for this single purpose.
NOTE: I am not suggesting using this during fights, but precharging the shield before a fight is not necessarily trivial.

Daidalos · 10/27/07, 7:30 PM

Heal/s/mana is not meant to be a single stat I look at. I actually hardly ever look at it but I added it one day on a whim. It is simply meant to be something I can look at other that weights heal/mana and heal/s. I don't really understand why you complain about this single stat then go on to say you have to take other things into account.. well of course you do the same as you cannot only take heal/s and heal/mana into account solely into account. Otherwise healing wave rank 1 with ssc relic would be the best heal in the game. Mostly its use is for is 2 spells are the same heal/s or the same heal/mana to tell which is more efficient. If you don't feel its not useful for you feel free to ignore it I was just pasting out of my spread sheet.

Daidalos · 10/27/07, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by Moshne

The part about not breaking CC is only slightly true. At this point, the totem will usually not target something that is already CCed and attack it, however, once it has a target, if it is CCed after the totem has "chosen" it, it will continue to attack it. As a general rule, I do not drop Searing Totem until CC has been established, as the random breaks here and there don't outweigh 1-2 extra bolts of damage.

Also, on the subject of Earth Shields, there is a lot we can do with this subject. Another thing to note is that the individual "procs" are treated as separate spells. Things such as the [Fel Reaver's Piston] will proc off Earth Shield if the person with the shield has it equipped (as you often will in a pvp type situation, and I've been known to throw it on myself during Nightbane air phases.)

You mention that the +heal is calculated when cast, which is true, it might be helpful to note the trinkets that are useful for "super-charging" it.

[Xi'ri's Gift]: While on face a damage trinket, the +heal is actually more than most of the lower level trinkets like [Oshu'gun Relic]
[Zandalarian Hero Charm]: while level 60, still has more +heal than most (if not all) trinkets we have available to us for this single purpose.
NOTE: I am not suggesting using this during fights, but precharging the shield before a fight is not necessarily trivial.

One thing to note is that [Oshu'gun Relic]
and [Heavenly Inspiration] stack with other trinkets while zhc does not. To my knowledge they are the only use +heal trinket that stack,

I usually stack [Heavenly Inspiration] and [Essence of the Martyr] for the super earth shields because the oshagun relic looks like an ankh and thats gotten me into trouble thinking I had ankhs in my inv when I didn't.

Moshne · 10/27/07, 7:42 PM

The ZHC does stack with other +heal trinkets, just not +dmg ones. The Xi'ri's is in the same boat.

This is [Zandalarian Hero Charm] and [Warp-Scarab Brooch]

Daidalos · 10/27/07, 7:45 PM

Ah intersting.. I guess they are considered dmg trinkets...

Moshne · 10/27/07, 7:56 PM

Bear in mind, I am by no means suggesting every resto shaman should go run ZG to get this trinket so they can add a few points to their initial Earth Shield cast (I did, but not explicitly for the trinket, we were just bored). But, there probably are a few shaman that have it in the bank that have discounted it.

Teenee · 10/27/07, 9:30 PM

Another aspect of Earth Shield is that it has 30% spell interruption protection. If you have a caster type tanking anything, remember this aspect, and remind your raid leader, that there is this aspect of ES (not sure how it stacks with Concentration Aura however).

galzohar · 10/28/07, 12:36 AM

What I'm saying is that you can combine the info from heal/sec and heal/mana into something useful, but heal/(sec*mana) doesn't add any information whatsoever, because it means nearly absolutely nothing about the heal. You *need* a certain amount of heal/sec. You *need* a certain amount of heal/mana. You *don't need* any certain amount of heal/(mana*sec), nor even heal^2/(mana*sec).
It's not that it bothers me it's on the spreadsheet, I just don't want people getting mislead by it and thinking that a heal is good at combining hp/s and hp/mana because it has high hp/(sec*mana).

Equinediver · 11/21/07, 3:18 PM

I have been using this macro for ages:

/stopcasting
/use 13
/stopcasting
/use 14
/stopcasting
/cast Nature's Swiftness
/stopcasting
/cast Healing Wave

However, since 2.3 came out I have been having issues with it.

I am using it with this trinket Tome of Diabolic Remedy - Items - World of Warcraft

I use Grid along with Clique. However, I have this macro bound to a mouse button. I use Pitbull for raid frames and usually set my focus to the tank I have ES up on. For some reason it now will only go 'off' on the focused player, regardless of who I might be targetting.

I tried removing the /stopcasting lines, then it will only pop the trinket.

Any ideas as to why this has started happening & more importantly how to fix it?